universal health care in five democratic capitalist nations

[Old Rocks]

FRONTLINE: sick around the world | PBS

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Those are all soviet wannabe countries, and we can learn nothing from their dictatorial ways. We have to take the example of real free market countries- like Somalia or Burkina Faso or something.

 

[Andrew2382]

A lot of people are on the bandwagon thinking that Universal Healthcare will be the greatest thing to happen to this country since the industrial revolution. It is just one step closer to be a socialistic society and taking a step that has known massive failures all around the world.

There are many countries that use this sort of socialistic health program however; they have their problems as well. Once we are in a society that has a Universal healthcare program established, you will see many things change in the things we were accustomed too.

Let's take a good look to the best example our wonderful tundra to the north, Canada.

http://www.fraserinstitut...newsrelease.aspx?nID=4967


"Ontario recorded the shortest waiting time overall (the wait between visiting a general practitioner and receiving treatment), at 15 weeks, followed by British Columbia (19 weeks) and Quebec (19.4 weeks). Saskatchewan (27.2 weeks), New Brunswick (25.2 weeks) and Nova Scotia (24.8 weeks) recorded the longest waits in Canada"

25 weeks to see your MD. We complain about having to wait 45 minutes in the doctor's office.

How about the wait tile from the MD to a specialist?

"The First Wait: Between General Practitioner and Specialist Consultation

The waiting time between referral by a GP and consultation with a specialist rose to 9.2 weeks from the 8.8 weeks recorded in 2006. The shortest waits for specialist consultations were in Ontario (7.6 weeks), Manitoba (8.2 weeks), and British Columbia (8.8 weeks).

The longest waits for consultation with a specialist were recorded in New Brunswick (14.7 weeks), Newfoundland (13.5 weeks), and Prince Edward Island (12.7 weeks)."

I can also site examples of cases where people have gone to their MD about let's say a
"Headache" and have to wait 3 months to see a specialist and in those 3 months die.

It isn't pretty.

Let's say you finally get to that specialist and you need to get an MRI or a CAT scan...Well, I know I myself won't have to wait more then a few days here to get one. Go to Canada.

"The median wait for a CT scan across Canada was 4.8 weeks. British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia had the shortest wait for CT scans (4 weeks), while the longest wait occurred in Manitoba (8 weeks). The median wait for an MRI across Canada was 10.1 weeks. Patients in Ontario experienced the shortest wait for an MRI (7.8 weeks), while Newfoundland residents waited longest (20 weeks). The median wait for ultrasound was 3.9 weeks across Canada. Alberta and Ontario displayed the shortest wait for ultrasound (2 weeks), while Prince Edward Island and Manitoba exhibited the longest ultrasound waiting time (10 weeks)."

8 weeks for a cat scan? 20 weeks for an MRI? Are you serious? Is this what people actually want for our great country, having to wait 5 months to receive an MRI?

If Universal healthcare is so great, why didn't Ted Kennedy receive his treatment in Canada or Cuba? He didn't, he received the best treatment money can buy.

Let's take a swim across the ocean to our wonderful allies in England.

How many people have died because the government won't pay for a certain type of medication because it is

A- Too Expensive
B- Only meant to extend life.


Look at these examples:
http://www.nypost.com/sev...would_kill_ted_114032.htm

"Problem is, governments that promise to "cover everyone" always wind up cutting corners simply to save money. People with Kennedy's condition are dying or dead as a result.

Consider Jennifer Bell of Norwich, England. In 2006, the 22-year-old complained of headaches for months - but Britain's National Health Service made her wait a year to see a neurologist.

Then she had to wait more than three months before should could get what the NHS decided was only a "relatively urgent" MRI scan. Three days before the MRI appointment, she died.

Consider, too, the chemo drug Kennedy is receiving: Temodar, the first oral medicine for brain tumors in 25 years.

Temodar has been widely used in this country since the FDA approved it in 2000. But a British health-care rationing agency, the National Institute for Comparative Effectiveness, ruled that, while the drug helps people live longer, it wasn't worth the money - and denied coverage for it.

Barack Obama - and other Democrats - have been pushing a Senate bill to set up a similar US "review board" for Medicare and any future government health-care plan.

After denying this treatment completely for seven years, the NICE (did whoever named it intend the irony?) relented - partly. Even today, only a handful of Brits with brain tumors can get Temodar.

And if you want to pay for Temodar out of your own pocket, the British system forces you to pay for all of your cancer care - about $30,000 a month. "

30 grand a month, just to be able to live a little longer. God Save The Queen, I hope God has his own personal PPO.

Here is another example from that article from Canada again-

"Things are no different in Canada, where the wait for an MRI (once you finally get a referral) has grown to 10 weeks. For Canadians relying on their government health care, the average wait time from diagnosis of cancer to surgery is beyond the guideline set by both the US and European societies for surgical oncology.

And Health Canada, the government system, similar refuses to pay for treatments that are often covered in America.

Chad Curley, a 37-year-old auto worker from Windsor, Ontario, had a brain tumor like Kennedy's but can't have surgery because his is too large to be operable.

His tumor didn't respond to Temodar and the same doctors now treating Sen. Kennedy told him and his wife that the Avastin combination could stop his tumor from growing and add months to his life. But Health Canada wouldn't pay to use Avastin to treat his tumor.

Chad's family and friends scraped together the $5,000 for the first round of treatment in mid-November; they later saw Chad's left-side paralysis start to subside. But the money ran out - and he died on Feb. 21."

There is a new term going around these days, perhaps many people are not familiar with it. It is called "Medical Tourism". Basically it means a person from Canada, England etc... come to a country like the United States and on their 'vacation', BOOM I need a knee replacement. Happens constantly.

Medical tourism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"While much attention has been given to the growing trend of U.S. citizens seeking health care in other countries, other evidence points out that the largest segment of medical travelers are headed stateside.["

Now, the main argument is everyone deserves insurance and to be covered and we have something like 45 million uninsured.

Well let us take a look at that a little more closely...

HOW COVERAGE VARIES



Illegal immigrants are less likely to have health coverage than others:

Adults

Type
Uninsured



U.S. citizens
14%



Legal immigrants
25%



Illegal immigrants
59%




Children

Type
Uninsured



U.S. citizens
9%



Citizens whose parents are legal immigrants
13%



Foreign-born children of legal immigrants
25%



Citizens with illegal immigrant parents
25%



Foreign-born children of illegal immigrants
53%




Source: Pew Hispanic Center, 2005


So, to sum it up
in Adults you have 59% of the uninsured are illegal immigrants compared to 14% US citizens

Children- 53% Foreign born children of Illegal Immigrants and 25% of citizens with illegal immigrants. Compared to 9% US citizens.

Seems to me we have an immigration problem, not so much a healthcare problem.

And when it comes to premiums, I have said this many times myself, premiums are individually based. I am in the Insurance business (not medical). However, if you smoke and weigh 300 pounds then yes you are going to pay more. The problem in this country is obesity and quite frankly no one takes care of themselves anymore, and the insurance companies are on the hook. You know a lot of companies out there, Humana being one of them will pay your gym membership.

 

[johnrocks]

I got examples of those countries where their problems are still there or much worse, things like longer wait times, physicians strikes, higher taxes that actually make the total cost of being a citizen there much higher than here. If we weren't so hell bent on being the policemen of the world, our costs,freedoms and taxes would be improved immensely.

 

[Andrew2382]

Also, I would just like to post this again like in the other thread before random liberal response of

"we have a high mortality rate"


http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ntries_by_life_expectancy

Canada is 14th and their expectancy is 80.34

Now lets take a closer look at these numbers.

First of all you have to take in general population, obviously the greater the population the more deaths you are going to have. It is a pure numbers thing.

United States- a little over 300 million
Canada- 30 million

Let's compare the two in another stat-
Obesity
http://www.nationmaster.c...ph/hea_obe-health-obesity
United States- 30.6% of the population
Canada- 14.3% of the population

It has nothing to do with privatized healthcare, it has to do that Americans unfortunately are gluttonous.

what about all these other wonderful countries that have social healthcare, where are they on your life expectancy list?

England? 37th with a expectancy of 78.7 ...pretty much a statstical tie with us.
Germany? 33th with a expectancy of 78.95
Venezuela? 95th!!! With a whopping 73.28 life expectancy
Spain? 19th place with 79.79 life expectancy

Now guess what, you can combine the population from all 5 of thouse countries and the United States by itself still has more.

It comes down to Americans that don't take care of themselves.
For example, obesity alone is calculated to decrease US life expectancy by 0.3 to 0.75 years and the US has the highest rates of obesity in the world. Notice that Japan has one of the lowest rates of obesity and is among the countries with the highest life expectancies.

Perhaps that fat fuck Michael Moore one day when he is choking down one of his double cheeseburgers from Mickey D's will realize that it is his 500 pounds that is going to kill him early, not the Healthcare system of this country.

Lets look at some of most populated countries that use universal health in the world and see how we compare:

China, 1.2 billion
Brazil- 120 million
Russia- 117 million
United States- 300 million

China Life Expectancy- 103rd place with a expectancy of 73 years.
Brazil- 114th place with an expectancy of 72.24
Russia- 157th! with a huge expectancy of 65.5...no need to go to war with them they will all just die in a few years from old age.
United States- 45th place with an expectancy of 78.06. Not to bad given the population and obesity factor we are faced with.

Let's not forget to mention that the difference between 45th place and 19th place is .96 years...less then 1 year of life

I'll take my chances here in the States




Gotta love when I already post what your rebutall will be

 

[johnrocks]

I like the Frasier Institute...

Yet in Canada, public spending on health care is still growing faster than the ability of the government to pay for it. As of 2006, public health spending in six out of 10 Canadian provinces was on pace to consume more than half of total revenue from all sources by the year 2020 -- without even taking into account the added pressures from an aging population. As of 2003, the growing unfunded liabilities for health care reached 46 percent of Canada's total economic output.

These are the hidden costs of Canada's health system, and they're far worse than the monetary price of U.S. medical care. But Michael Moore is not interested in such facts. He makes fictional films.

The Fraser Institute - Article Details -- Hidden costs of Canadian health care system

 

[xsited1]

FRONTLINE: sick around the world | PBS

Does this mean you're moving soon???

 

[Andrew2382]

Also, Vancouver recently opened Canada's first Private sector hospital...and its so busy they have to turn away patients

UNVICERSAL HEALTHCARE IS AWESOME EH?

 

[editec]

Enough with you aprocraphal stories, Adnrew.

Show us the morbity and mortality stats.

THOSE are the metrics which tell us the REAL story, amigo.

 

[Sky Dancer]

It would be great if the US figured out how to provide healthcare cost effectively. Many of my friends travel to Mexico or Asia for expensive surgeries or health treatments. They run the hospitials like five star hotels and even with the travel costs it's cheaper than getting the same care in the US.

 

[cunclusion]

The problem is this the cost is skyrocketing do u know how much it costs to go to the emergency room over $1,000 now just imagine millions of people going to the emergency room and lets say half dont pay the hospital has to absorb the debt and raise fees for services to everyone else or get the state or county to pay for some of the debt. Do you understand what this means even if you have insurance you still will have to pay more out and later the employer will have to raise your part that you pay into your insurance.

There has to be a change all you who like me have insurance are lucky right now but if prices keep going up, you have to put more in out of your paycheck, so then you have to decide do you need it or not, whats more important paying the mortgage, getting food for your family or your health insurance. We might not need universal but we need something that might be close to it.

 

[Diuretic]

And what about a source other than the politically biased Fraser Institute?

 

[cunclusion]

My source is my aunt who works with the accounting department for a local hospital. This is what they need to do and if you have not been paying attention to people asking why their premiums are being raised. In the end everyone has to pay for the uninsured especially if they dont pay. If I say anything most of the time its from personal experience or family memebers not the media, think tanks or anyone else.