United States Founded on Faith

[RightyTighty]

I think the constitution says it all. "We the people....." The only reference to the Christians # 1 God is as a place-holder in time.

Our liberty is deeply tied to our faith.

Ah, no. Not in the slightest. Liberalism grants you your liberty.

Constitution grants me liberty. Conservatism maintains that grant.

The constitution is a product of liberalism. And conservatives should defend it, but don't and can't.

Try one though, defend flag burning or the Quran?

 

[Bush92]

And after the ratification of this "secular " Constitution the federal government went about weaving faith through every vestige of this new creation. Architecture, popular practice, and establishing new traditions. Grounded in faith.
In God We Trust: America's Historic Sites Reveal her Christian Foundations | Providence Foundation

 

[Bush92]

I think the constitution says it all. "We the people....." The only reference to the Christians # 1 God is as a place-holder in time.

Our liberty is deeply tied to our faith.

Ah, no. Not in the slightest. Liberalism grants you your liberty.

Constitution grants me liberty. Conservatism maintains that grant.

The constitution is a product of liberalism. And conservatives should defend it, but don't and can't.

Try one though, defend flag burning or the Quran?

Constitution is a product of compromise...not "liberalism."

 

[Bush92]

The Constitution written by Christians...grounded in the Christian faith? I think they wanted to allow for a freedom of religion because they saw the turmoil it had caused in the past in European history...as well as in theirs. But I do not believe they wanted "freedom of sensitivity."

What of the Constitution is grounded on the christian faith?

All of it. The concept of "rebirth" or being "born again." By scrapping the Articles of Confederation on the third day of the Constitutional Convention the Founders had to leave Philadelphia with a plan for governance...or they had just destroyed everything they fought for. So in essence they baptized the nation and it was "born again" with the Constitution of the United States of America.

More specifically, the Presentiment Clause, which provides for an observance of the Sabbath.

But again, per the premise of the thread, America's charter - its founding document - credits the Judeo-Christian God - divine Providence and the Supreme Judge - in effecting secession from the commonwealth.

But defining the perimeters of that separation was left to the people.

Indeed, the people were immersed in a culture defined by classical antiquity, English Common Law, Enlightenment Rationalism, and social and political theories of New England Puritanism and Covenant Theology, a culture that they brought to Independence Hall. Many avowed Christians were present to act as signatories there, including ordained minister John Witherspoon.

One of the problems I see with the liberals in this thread is that they confuse the United States government with the United States. The people did not found their country with the Constitution. The Constitution is the instrument by which they constituted a new government.

I can of Kipper Snacks for you!

 

[Bush92]

I think the constitution says it all. "We the people....." The only reference to the Christians # 1 God is as a place-holder in time.

Why the Constitution? Our founding document is the DoI, which references the God of Abraham no fewer than two times.

The god of Abraham is the god of Islam.

You're not usually worth my time, but I assure you, no Muslim signed the DoI.

Who cares?

Would you like a repeal of the 1st Amendment so we can criminalize all religions except Christianity?

Bingo'

That's exactly what they want.


Sent from my iPad using USMessageBoard.com

Oh Luddley. Not even close.

 

[Billy000]

The Pilgram's wrote the Mayflower Compact that denied divine right of kings and stated that those in government served with the consent of the governed. John Winthrop said the new colony would be like a "shining city upon a hill." James Whitfield spread the idea of baptism or "re-birth"across the colonies. Reject the Church of England and be born again...reject the King and be your own nation. Washington added "so help me God" to the inaugural oath...with hand on Bible. Lincoln even talked of a "new birth of freedom" in his Gettysburg Address. Always throughout our history God and faith has been a cornerstone. The Christian faith has dominated our history, but no other nation on earth has so embraced religious liberty. Separation of church and state is there and Jefferson talked of a "wall of separation." But how high is that wall? Link below is for reference...skip to 9 minute clip for debate.
God In America - Watch the Full Program Online
Who do you agree with in case study...the girl who was offended by prayer...or the school?
Watch Full Episodes Online of Constitution USA with Peter Sagal on PBS | Battles of School Prayer
Segment is 9 minutes.

It amazes me you're too dumb to understand the concept of separation of church and state.

To what degree? To remove a prayer from a high school auditorium that had been there for decades?

Yeah, some students shouldn't have to be a part of it.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I think the constitution says it all. "We the people....." The only reference to the Christians # 1 God is as a place-holder in time.

Our liberty is deeply tied to our faith.

Yes, it's tied to everyone being able to have the faith of their own choice, not just "you can choose any religion in any color, as long as it's Christianity"

But Christianity prevails. If our founders were not Christian...would the outcome have been the same?

Well different religions would probably have done things differently in some way or other. But had the US been Christian but Russian orthodox, it would have been different. A lot of what you're talking about has been the development of Europe from the Magna Carta in 1215. Was Christianity the main driving force of parliament in England trying to rest control from the Monarch? No, because such things happened everywhere. You look to the Ottoman Empire and they had freedoms for different religions, and different ethic groups too, taking power away from the Sultan. But Christianity played a part because religion was far more political back then than it is now. But Christianity developed in different directions. Had the US been Catholic mainly, it would have gone a completely different way too.

But the Founding Fathers wanted to stop what had been happening under the British king George III. That is that religion was forced on people. The whole point of the First Amendment was so that individuals could make that decision.

And now you're trying to twist history to make it look like the Founding Fathers wanted the US to force religion on people.

No I am not. The Founders believed in freedom from a "state sponsored" religion. The Magna Carta was brought about to ensure the rights of nobility. The Pilgrims came here because they did not believe in the divine right of kings. They wanted religious freedom and the last time I checked...they were Christian. They wrote the Mayflower Compact that stated that those in power served with the consent of the governed. At every turn in early American history...all the way up through the abolitionist movement...faith was a centerpiece. If the early colonies had been predominantly Catholic...they would have been French or Spanish. The First Amendment is directed at a state sponsored religion. Not freedom to practice what you want. I do not think the high school was trying to establish a state sponsored religion.

Your post is just one massive contradiction.

First you talk about religious freedom, not being told by the state what religion you should be forced to practice, and then you seem to be pressing for the govt to be able to impose their will on what people believe. You're pushing your agenda and trying to make facts fit. It's clearly not working.

 

[NYcarbineer]

This nation was founded on a set of democratic laws which by their very nature give the People the choice of how much or how little 'faith' they want codified.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, the English colonies were based on faith. Would you like to go back to being an English colony? It can be arranged.

Our nation is founded upon faith and faith is our foundation that holds this house together. You are a 1960's liberal/socialist. Martin Luther King's actual trained profession was...

Do you not see the First Amendment at all? Shall we just get rid of the Constitution then?

The Constitution written by Christians...grounded in the Christian faith? I think they wanted to allow for a freedom of religion because they saw the turmoil it had caused in the past in European history...as well as in theirs. But I do not believe they wanted "freedom of sensitivity."

I'm not sure what you mean by "freedom of sensitivity", what they wanted was a separation of church and state, they wanted individuals to be free to choose whatever they wanted.

Thomas Jefferson wrote:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."

How high is that wall? Removing a prayer from a wall seems going too far the other way. The Taliban destroyed Buddhist statues by blowing them up. I think atheists comprise a religion and they have no right to force their shared non-belief in God on to me and prohibit my right to practice my faith or the common shared belief of 99999.9999% of the community.

Okay, but then you appear to be pushing to impose your views on other people. You are saying that the country was founded on Christianity and that Christianity should somehow reign supreme, aren't you? Now you're saying that no religion should be able to impose itself on any other.

 

[Bush92]

Our liberty is deeply tied to our faith.

Yes, it's tied to everyone being able to have the faith of their own choice, not just "you can choose any religion in any color, as long as it's Christianity"

But Christianity prevails. If our founders were not Christian...would the outcome have been the same?

Well different religions would probably have done things differently in some way or other. But had the US been Christian but Russian orthodox, it would have been different. A lot of what you're talking about has been the development of Europe from the Magna Carta in 1215. Was Christianity the main driving force of parliament in England trying to rest control from the Monarch? No, because such things happened everywhere. You look to the Ottoman Empire and they had freedoms for different religions, and different ethic groups too, taking power away from the Sultan. But Christianity played a part because religion was far more political back then than it is now. But Christianity developed in different directions. Had the US been Catholic mainly, it would have gone a completely different way too.

But the Founding Fathers wanted to stop what had been happening under the British king George III. That is that religion was forced on people. The whole point of the First Amendment was so that individuals could make that decision.

And now you're trying to twist history to make it look like the Founding Fathers wanted the US to force religion on people.

No I am not. The Founders believed in freedom from a "state sponsored" religion. The Magna Carta was brought about to ensure the rights of nobility. The Pilgrims came here because they did not believe in the divine right of kings. They wanted religious freedom and the last time I checked...they were Christian. They wrote the Mayflower Compact that stated that those in power served with the consent of the governed. At every turn in early American history...all the way up through the abolitionist movement...faith was a centerpiece. If the early colonies had been predominantly Catholic...they would have been French or Spanish. The First Amendment is directed at a state sponsored religion. Not freedom to practice what you want. I do not think the high school was trying to establish a state sponsored religion.

Your post is just one massive contradiction.

First you talk about religious freedom, not being told by the state what religion you should be forced to practice, and then you seem to be pressing for the govt to be able to impose their will on what people believe. You're pushing your agenda and trying to make facts fit. It's clearly not working.

The prevailing attitude of the population is...not to be overturned by Court. Certainly in the case of California voters and gay marriage it was totally wrong to destroy their vote and opinion.

 

[RightyTighty]

I think the constitution says it all. "We the people....." The only reference to the Christians # 1 God is as a place-holder in time.

Our liberty is deeply tied to our faith.

Ah, no. Not in the slightest. Liberalism grants you your liberty.

Constitution grants me liberty. Conservatism maintains that grant.

The constitution is a product of liberalism. And conservatives should defend it, but don't and can't.

Try one though, defend flag burning or the Quran?

Constitution is a product of compromise...not "liberalism."

There was plenty of compromise, but all of it based upon - liberalism.

 

[RightyTighty]

Yes, it's tied to everyone being able to have the faith of their own choice, not just "you can choose any religion in any color, as long as it's Christianity"

But Christianity prevails. If our founders were not Christian...would the outcome have been the same?

Well different religions would probably have done things differently in some way or other. But had the US been Christian but Russian orthodox, it would have been different. A lot of what you're talking about has been the development of Europe from the Magna Carta in 1215. Was Christianity the main driving force of parliament in England trying to rest control from the Monarch? No, because such things happened everywhere. You look to the Ottoman Empire and they had freedoms for different religions, and different ethic groups too, taking power away from the Sultan. But Christianity played a part because religion was far more political back then than it is now. But Christianity developed in different directions. Had the US been Catholic mainly, it would have gone a completely different way too.

But the Founding Fathers wanted to stop what had been happening under the British king George III. That is that religion was forced on people. The whole point of the First Amendment was so that individuals could make that decision.

And now you're trying to twist history to make it look like the Founding Fathers wanted the US to force religion on people.

No I am not. The Founders believed in freedom from a "state sponsored" religion. The Magna Carta was brought about to ensure the rights of nobility. The Pilgrims came here because they did not believe in the divine right of kings. They wanted religious freedom and the last time I checked...they were Christian. They wrote the Mayflower Compact that stated that those in power served with the consent of the governed. At every turn in early American history...all the way up through the abolitionist movement...faith was a centerpiece. If the early colonies had been predominantly Catholic...they would have been French or Spanish. The First Amendment is directed at a state sponsored religion. Not freedom to practice what you want. I do not think the high school was trying to establish a state sponsored religion.

Your post is just one massive contradiction.

First you talk about religious freedom, not being told by the state what religion you should be forced to practice, and then you seem to be pressing for the govt to be able to impose their will on what people believe. You're pushing your agenda and trying to make facts fit. It's clearly not working.

The prevailing attitude of the population is...not to be overturned by Court. Certainly in the case of California voters and gay marriage it was totally wrong to destroy their vote and opinion.

The people don't get to vote on the rights of others. Sorry, my little man, this isn't nation for your kind but you would have liked when you could have been jailed for preaching the wrong Christian faith (and people were).

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, it's tied to everyone being able to have the faith of their own choice, not just "you can choose any religion in any color, as long as it's Christianity"

But Christianity prevails. If our founders were not Christian...would the outcome have been the same?

Well different religions would probably have done things differently in some way or other. But had the US been Christian but Russian orthodox, it would have been different. A lot of what you're talking about has been the development of Europe from the Magna Carta in 1215. Was Christianity the main driving force of parliament in England trying to rest control from the Monarch? No, because such things happened everywhere. You look to the Ottoman Empire and they had freedoms for different religions, and different ethic groups too, taking power away from the Sultan. But Christianity played a part because religion was far more political back then than it is now. But Christianity developed in different directions. Had the US been Catholic mainly, it would have gone a completely different way too.

But the Founding Fathers wanted to stop what had been happening under the British king George III. That is that religion was forced on people. The whole point of the First Amendment was so that individuals could make that decision.

And now you're trying to twist history to make it look like the Founding Fathers wanted the US to force religion on people.

No I am not. The Founders believed in freedom from a "state sponsored" religion. The Magna Carta was brought about to ensure the rights of nobility. The Pilgrims came here because they did not believe in the divine right of kings. They wanted religious freedom and the last time I checked...they were Christian. They wrote the Mayflower Compact that stated that those in power served with the consent of the governed. At every turn in early American history...all the way up through the abolitionist movement...faith was a centerpiece. If the early colonies had been predominantly Catholic...they would have been French or Spanish. The First Amendment is directed at a state sponsored religion. Not freedom to practice what you want. I do not think the high school was trying to establish a state sponsored religion.

Your post is just one massive contradiction.

First you talk about religious freedom, not being told by the state what religion you should be forced to practice, and then you seem to be pressing for the govt to be able to impose their will on what people believe. You're pushing your agenda and trying to make facts fit. It's clearly not working.

The prevailing attitude of the population is...not to be overturned by Court. Certainly in the case of California voters and gay marriage it was totally wrong to destroy their vote and opinion.

No, I disagree.

What you're saying is that the whim and will of the people at any particular time, overrules the constitution.

The Constitution can be changed. There is a process for changing the Constitution. No referendum can overrule the Constitution. The will of the people can only be changed SLOWLY. Look at the Brexit vote in the UK, had this been a slower vote, then people would have been more careful with the whole thing. But as it is the UK is a mess, everyone is poorer, everyone is going to suffer, and there's no way to turn around after realizing there's been a bit of a mistake.

So, the question is why you think a referendum should be more powerful than the Constitution.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The Founders seem pretty grounded in faith to me.
Christian Quotes from the Founding Fathers

They were also adherents to the belief that the people of a nation should never consider themselves inextricably bound to the beliefs of their forefathers -

if they hadn't been, they would have never rebelled.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Our nation is founded upon faith and faith is our foundation that holds this house together. You are a 1960's liberal/socialist. Martin Luther King's actual trained profession was...

Do you not see the First Amendment at all? Shall we just get rid of the Constitution then?

The Constitution written by Christians...grounded in the Christian faith? I think they wanted to allow for a freedom of religion because they saw the turmoil it had caused in the past in European history...as well as in theirs. But I do not believe they wanted "freedom of sensitivity."

What of the Constitution is grounded on the christian faith?

All of it. The concept of "rebirth" or being "born again." By scrapping the Articles of Confederation on the third day of the Constitutional Convention the Founders had to leave Philadelphia with a plan for governance...or they had just destroyed everything they fought for. So in essence they baptized the nation and it was "born again" with the Constitution of the United States of America.

What part of "checks and balances" is grounded on christian faith?
What part of a bicameral legislature is grounded on christian faith?
What part of three branches of government is grounded on christian faith?
What part of the Bill of Rights is grounded on christian faith?

Exactly. There is little if any call for democratic government in the Bible.

Heaven, in fact, is called a 'Kingdom'.

 

[Bush92]

Our nation is founded upon faith and faith is our foundation that holds this house together. You are a 1960's liberal/socialist. Martin Luther King's actual trained profession was...

Do you not see the First Amendment at all? Shall we just get rid of the Constitution then?

The Constitution written by Christians...grounded in the Christian faith? I think they wanted to allow for a freedom of religion because they saw the turmoil it had caused in the past in European history...as well as in theirs. But I do not believe they wanted "freedom of sensitivity."

I'm not sure what you mean by "freedom of sensitivity", what they wanted was a separation of church and state, they wanted individuals to be free to choose whatever they wanted.

Thomas Jefferson wrote:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."

How high is that wall? Removing a prayer from a wall seems going too far the other way. The Taliban destroyed Buddhist statues by blowing them up. I think atheists comprise a religion and they have no right to force their shared non-belief in God on to me and prohibit my right to practice my faith or the common shared belief of 99999.9999% of the community.

Okay, but then you appear to be pushing to impose your views on other people. You are saying that the country was founded on Christianity and that Christianity should somehow reign supreme, aren't you? Now you're saying that no religion should be able to impose itself on any other.

With regards to the school prayer video I disagree that this one girl has the right to impose her will on the vast majority based on her non-belief.

 

[Bush92]

The Founders seem pretty grounded in faith to me.
Christian Quotes from the Founding Fathers

They were also adherents to the belief that the people of a nation should never consider themselves inextricably bound to the beliefs of their forefathers -

if they hadn't been, they would have never rebelled.

Oh I disagree. They'd copied English common law for our judicial branch. The ConstItution as a concept is born from the Magna Carta. Madison used the English Bill of rights as a framework for ours.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Do you not see the First Amendment at all? Shall we just get rid of the Constitution then?

The Constitution written by Christians...grounded in the Christian faith? I think they wanted to allow for a freedom of religion because they saw the turmoil it had caused in the past in European history...as well as in theirs. But I do not believe they wanted "freedom of sensitivity."

I'm not sure what you mean by "freedom of sensitivity", what they wanted was a separation of church and state, they wanted individuals to be free to choose whatever they wanted.

Thomas Jefferson wrote:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."

How high is that wall? Removing a prayer from a wall seems going too far the other way. The Taliban destroyed Buddhist statues by blowing them up. I think atheists comprise a religion and they have no right to force their shared non-belief in God on to me and prohibit my right to practice my faith or the common shared belief of 99999.9999% of the community.

Okay, but then you appear to be pushing to impose your views on other people. You are saying that the country was founded on Christianity and that Christianity should somehow reign supreme, aren't you? Now you're saying that no religion should be able to impose itself on any other.

With regards to the school prayer video I disagree that this one girl has the right to impose her will on the vast majority based on her non-belief.

She didn't. The Court did.

 

[Seawytch]

America was founded by people who were predominantly of the Christian faith. And? What's the point?

Watch video. Should school have been forced to take down the prayer? I think we are consistently redefining Jefferson 's "Wall of Seperation." Just as the Rehenqist Court clarified some of the extreme positions of the Warren Court on probable cause and warrentless searches for police in conducting their jobs.

No, a school should not have to remove a Christian prayer...they should just have to make room for a Muslim prayer, a Jewish prayer, a Satanists prayer, a pastafarian prayer, etc.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Do you not see the First Amendment at all? Shall we just get rid of the Constitution then?

The Constitution written by Christians...grounded in the Christian faith? I think they wanted to allow for a freedom of religion because they saw the turmoil it had caused in the past in European history...as well as in theirs. But I do not believe they wanted "freedom of sensitivity."

I'm not sure what you mean by "freedom of sensitivity", what they wanted was a separation of church and state, they wanted individuals to be free to choose whatever they wanted.

Thomas Jefferson wrote:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."

How high is that wall? Removing a prayer from a wall seems going too far the other way. The Taliban destroyed Buddhist statues by blowing them up. I think atheists comprise a religion and they have no right to force their shared non-belief in God on to me and prohibit my right to practice my faith or the common shared belief of 99999.9999% of the community.

Okay, but then you appear to be pushing to impose your views on other people. You are saying that the country was founded on Christianity and that Christianity should somehow reign supreme, aren't you? Now you're saying that no religion should be able to impose itself on any other.

With regards to the school prayer video I disagree that this one girl has the right to impose her will on the vast majority based on her non-belief.

What video?

People don't have the right to impose their religious view on others. But they should expect that others don't do it to them.