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I just can't believe there are people like him in this world. Believing the government did it is one whole issue in itself. I'd actually be inclined to believe it if the twoofers could come up with come concrete evidence. Eots backed out of this debate about the document because he knows Mr. Jones is full of it. If there were any inkling of truth to what Mr. Jones is claiming then Eots would be on it. It's obvious that even truthers can't agree with one another.
Most of the time they can't even agree with themselves. Take Jones' insistance that WTC 7 fell at freefall for 2.25 seconds because every support was simultaniously blown via controlled demolition. Yet when confronted by the evidence of no explosions heard in numerous audio recordings of the collapse, he claims it was thermite, but thermite can't "blow" every column at the same time. It is these kinds of paradoxes that they can't see or refuse to acknowledge that destroys their theories more than anything else.
As for me, I believe what the evidence shows. If credible evidence surfaced of other players being involved in the events of 9/11, then I will re-evaluate the theory to fit the new evidence. That is the way theories are suppose to work. Truthtards take a pre-conceived notion (everything the government says is a lie) and work their way backward from there regardless of how retarded it makes them look.
Get used to it, there are probably millions around the world from different countries that believe 9-11 didn't happen the way the US says it did.I just can't believe there are people like him in this world.
Actually I am more inclined to stick with what I have said in the past, that is that a group of powerful men secured in positions of high authority and well connected, are the primary culprits. Not everyone who works in the government is a criminal, most just follow orders.Believing the government did it is one whole issue in itself. I'd actually be inclined to believe it if the twoofers could come up with come concrete evidence.
Why do you insist I need help in this or any debate like you do?Eots backed out of this debate about the document because he knows Mr. Jones is full of it. If there were any inkling of truth to what Mr. Jones is claiming then Eots would be on it.
We all agree on the most important issues, and those being that we were lied to because the evidence is every where to prove it, and we all believe a new independent investigation is needed so the evidence that was not allowed in the first one can be heard, and to introduce the new evidence that has since been brought to light.It's obvious that even truthers can't agree with one another.
Myself and others agree that something not related to fires brought down the WTC buildings, we all agree on that, and on having a real investigation that is not politically motivated is another thing we all can agree on.Most of the time they can't even agree with themselves. Take Jones' insistance that WTC 7 fell at freefall for 2.25 seconds because every support was simultaniously blown via controlled demolition. Yet when confronted by the evidence of no explosions heard in numerous audio recordings of the collapse, he claims it was thermite, but thermite can't "blow" every column at the same time.
As for the manner of exactly how the resistance of the structures were removed, at least the CD theory makes more sense then the NIST miracle theory does, and I have shown links to the patents and some past history that explosive thermite cutter charges have and do exist, and that they would not be as loud as RDX and the other conventional explosives. You have had to be reminded that it was not intended to actually look or sound like a CD. You also leave out the fact that many witnesses have said they heard explosions, and I even posted a video of them saying as much with the WTC 7 and towers videos that have audible explosions. Your insistence that there were no explosions have proven to be false, yet you admit as does NIST that they can't explain nor do they even try to explain the 2.25 secs. of free fall time.
Actually it is the refusal of people like you to acknowledge the alternate theories and stick to the outrageous and unreasonable conspiracy theory told by the NIST and government that destroys your credibility.It is these kinds of paradoxes that they can't see or refuse to acknowledge that destroys their theories more than anything else.
You know.. the one about the 19 Arabs with box cutters, gas and GPS s who managed to sneak past security! Fly commercial aircraft with expert precision, after being kicked out of flight training schools! and hit all but one of their targets while somehow having the good luck of being able to bypass the most heavily funded and fortified defense apparatus in the history of the world!, while it was conducting the same sort of training drills as the terrorists were conducting in REAL LIFE!, and demolishing 3 buildings with only 2 planes! at free fall speed to the ground within record time, with only Kerosene as the main weapon! Leaving molten metal to burn for 3 months with no mention of a viable explanation.
You mean the evidence that even the 9-11 commission now admits is not accurate? Or the evidence obtained through torture, or the evidence that was proven false by many people who spoke out?As for me, I believe what the evidence shows.
No likely when credible evidence has already surfaced and you still refuse to believe it.If credible evidence surfaced of other players being involved in the events of 9/11, then I will re-evaluate the theory to fit the new evidence.
You take the story as told to you by PROVEN liars with motive to lie as credible, while refusing to believe anything told by people that have not lied to you nor have any reason to?
Even when the NIST and govs theories are found to be full of holes inconsistencies and lies, and the other side comes up with a more plausible theory, you all still do not re-evaluate anything.That is the way theories are suppose to work. Truthtards take a pre-conceived notion (everything the government says is a lie) and work their way backward from there regardless of how retarded it makes them look.
Most people did believe the official story that day, I know I did, until it started to fall apart and the many lies and inconsistencies were pointed out to me and I researched the info for myself.
The stubbornness and refusal to see and acknowledge what others have already discovered sometimes makes the only rational explanation for this behavior as coming from actual people that have been hired and planted to spread disinfo and the official propaganda. It is a known fact that this type of activity is real, and many of you fit the bill.Not to mention the fact that folks like you and I "work" for the government and earn a paycheck to come to the forums and spread disinfo.
People who rely on the gov and its agencies to tell them what is happening are the real morons. Many awake, rational, and critically thinking Americans who are aware of what the PTP, are doing to the nation and weigh the 2 theories about 9-11 will quickly see that they were being lied to.I know the truth about what I do for a living and it makes be laugh. I show people this stuff at work and they think these people are morons.
The history of past crimes, corruption and conspiracies along with the actions of the Bush and Clinton administrations, and it's a no brainer. There is a massive cover up that is still taking place about 9-11.
Unfortunately for you truthtards, there's probably only a couple hundred seriously retarded people who actually believe it happened the way YOU say it did. While many people doubt it happened exactly the way the government said, they also don't believe shitheads like you who pretend the government was behind it. Nice try though.Get used to it, there are probably millions around the world from different countries that believe 9-11 didn't happen the way the US says it did.
Mr. Jones said:Actually I am more inclined to stick with what I have said in the past, that is that a group of powerful men secured in positions of high authority and well connected, are the primary culprits. Not everyone who works in the government is a criminal, most just follow orders.
Yeah, like people are going to follow these orders and not put two and two together. You're so full of shit! What about the people who wired the buildings for demolition? Do you REALLY expect anyone to believe that these people didn't understand that wiring three buildings for controlled demolition while fully occupied breaks numerous federal, state and local felony laws and sets them up to be personally charged with at a MINIMUM attempted murder? Truthtard bullshit sounds great until you think about it. Then the stench becomes overwhelming.Because, quite frankly, you SUCK at it. I don't mean mildly suck at it. We're talking WORLD CLASS suckage here!Mr. Jones said:Why do you insist I need help in this or any debate like you do?
Yet you can't produce a single shred of this evidence that is everywhere to prove it. That right there shows you are full of shit.Mr. Jones said:We all agree on the most important issues, and those being that we were lied to because the evidence is every where to prove it, and we all believe a new independent investigation is needed so the evidence that was not allowed in the first one can be heard, and to introduce the new evidence that has since been brought to light.
You can "agree" all you want. Doesn't change the fact you are full of shit and without evidence the FBI investigation, which was in no way politically motivated, is fundamentally flawed, you're not going to get dick.Mr. Jones said:Myself and others agree that something not related to fires brought down the WTC buildings, we all agree on that, and on having a real investigation that is not politically motivated is another thing we all can agree on.
Mr. Jones said:As for the manner of exactly how the resistance of the structures were removed, at least the CD theory makes more sense then the NIST miracle theory does, and I have shown links to the patents and some past history that explosive thermite cutter charges have and do exist, and that they would not be as loud as RDX and the other conventional explosives.
The CD theory only makes sense if you're a brain dead conspiratard zombie who can't think for themselves. You pretend thermite cutter charges (no such thing in reality) are strong enough to cut through all the steel simultaniously without making a noise. Bullshit! If that were true, they would be using thermite cutter charges all over the place! Yet you fucktards pretend the whole reason you KNOW it is a CD is because it looks like a CD!Mr. Jones said:You have had to be reminded that it was not intended to actually look or sound like a CD.
You fucking liar!You have ONE shithead who claims to have heard explosions at the beginning of the collapse, yet the "massive explosion" he heard can't be heard on any of the audio tracks recorded on that day. Quit being so dishonest and pretending that everyone who heard an explosion on 9/11 was actually hearing explosives going off.Mr. Jones said:You also leave out the fact that many witnesses have said they heard explosions, and I even posted a video of them saying as much with the WTC 7 and towers videos that have audible explosions.
WTF are you talking about? How blatantly can you lie and still call yourself a human being? THERE ARE NO EXPLOSIONS ON THE AUDIO TAPES. That is a known, proven fact. Were there explosions prior to the collapse? Sure. Last time I checked, you don't hear explosions hours before the collapse in a CD, do you.Mr. Jones said:Your insistence that there were no explosions have proven to be false, yet you admit as does NIST that they can't explain nor do they even try to explain the 2.25 secs. of free fall time.
And the explosions that were heard weren't strong enough to be picked up on seismographs.Wrong again, fuckface. All one has to do is look at the evidence to see which theories are credible and which are not. Your bullshit theories don't have a single shred of real evidence to back them up. Therefore they are NOT CREDIBLE. Easy enough for even a complete moron to understand, yet it escapes you.Mr. Jones said:Actually it is the refusal of people like you to acknowledge the alternate theories and stick to the outrageous and unreasonable conspiracy theory told by the NIST and government that destroys your credibility.
:roll: Are you seriously going to re-iterate the entire cock and bull pack of lies you've already been proven to be full of shit on? Box cutters were legal on 9/11. Funny how you always forget that and pretend they snuck them past security. As for gas and GPSes, lord only knows what you're smoking this time.Mr. Jones said:You know.. the one about the 19 Arabs with box cutters, gas and GPS s who managed to sneak past security!
Except he didn't fly the plane with expert precision. He flew the plane like crap as clearly evidenced in the FDR. If he were truly an expert, why did he have to make the spiral? He would have flown the plane straight in, not come in several thousand feet to high. Funny how quickly a fucking retard like you forgets all this information from post to post.Mr. Jones said:Fly commercial aircraft with expert precision, after being kicked out of flight training schools!
Which by every account was pointed OUTWARD for attack. We weren't expecting an attack from inside the US.Mr. Jones said:and hit all but one of their targets while somehow having the good luck of being able to bypass the most heavily funded and fortified defense apparatus in the history of the world!
Wrong again, you piece of shit liar! The National Recognizance Office (NRO), which is IN THE FLIGHT PATH OF DULLES, had a drill scheduled for 9/11 which would have a small private plane crash into the building due to a malfunction. And you wonder why everyone doesn't believe a fucking liar like you!Mr. Jones said:while it was conducting the same sort of training drills as the terrorists were conducting in REAL LIFE!
Really? So now you're going to try and pretend it was Al Qaeda's goal to collapse all three buildings?Mr. Jones said:and demolishing 3 buildings with only 2 planes!
That's rich! They didn't even expect to collapse the towers! Really? Kerosene only? Nothing else in the towers or WTC 7 burned? There was no structural damage? All they did was throw kerosene on the building and light it? Fuck off! You can't even come up with plausible bullshit!Mr. Jones said:at free fall speed to the ground within record time, with only Kerosene as the main weapon!
Really? Molten metal was BURNING now? Wow. That's news to everyone! BTW, the viable explanation for the red hot metal is the subterranian fires. What viable explanation do you have? Nothing you've put forth can keep metal molten for anything longer than a few minutes.Mr. Jones said:Leaving molten metal to burn for 3 months with no mention of a viable explanation.
Still going with that lie too? Wow. You're pulling out all the stops to destroy your credibility! The 9/11 commission had questions about the investigation WHILE IT WAS HAPPENING. None of the comments were AFTER the report came out. You only pretend they were because it makes your bullshit a LITTLE less foul. But lies compounded just don't smell good no matter how hard you try to convince people of them.Mr. Jones said:You mean the evidence that even the 9-11 commission now admits is not accurate?
The "evidence" obtained through torture amounts to very little compared to all the hard evidence there is. I realize your twisted little peabrain can't comprehend this, but it is true. BTW, you fucktards pretending the evidence is false does nothing to "prove" the evidence is false. Your credibility is shit, yet you want everyone to believe you over the hard evidence?Mr. Jones said:Or the evidence obtained through torture, or the evidence that was proven false by many people who spoke out?
Not bloody likely!Oh, you mean the evidence you STILL haven't been able to produce? Not one little shred of real evidence, yet you still pretend you have so much of it.Mr. Jones said:No likely when credible evidence has already surfaced and you still refuse to believe it.
The only thing you have is a handful of shit you're trying to convince everyone is gold."People who have not lied to us"?!?!?Mr. Jones said:You take the story as told to you by PROVEN liars with motive to lie as credible, while refusing to believe anything told by people that have not lied to you nor have any reason to?
Like YOU?!? You're a proven piece of shit liar many times over and you have the balls to try and pretend you're some pristine truth teller?!? That's RICH! Thanks for the laughs! BTW, I believe what the evidence says and not what either side says. Mr. Jones said:Even when the NIST and govs theories are found to be full of holes inconsistencies and lies, and the other side comes up with a more plausible theory, you all still do not re-evaluate anything.
Stop! You're killing me!!! "More plausible theory"?!?!?!? You mean the ones you can't even answer the simplest of questions about without making up science fiction to cover your ass? Oh this is just too much!You haven't done a day of research in your life you fucking liar. All you do is cut and paste from conspiratard sites. You're not even intelligent enough to look at the responses. Nothing but a parrot is what you are.Mr. Jones said:Most people did believe the official story that day, I know I did, until it started to fall apart and the many lies and inconsistencies were pointed out to me and I researched the info for myself.
OR it is the sad and desperate last gasps from those who can't defend their own theories and thus are forced to pretend they are battleing the big bad gubment directly! WOOooOOOooO!!!! The funny thing is that if the government were really as evil as you say, your ass would have disappeared ages ago, never to be seen again.Mr. Jones said:The stubbornness and refusal to see and acknowledge what others have already discovered sometimes makes the only rational explanation for this behavior as coming from actual people that have been hired and planted to spread disinfo and the official propaganda.
It is called a paranoid delusion. Look it up. Classic example.Mr. Jones said:It is a known fact that this type of activity is real, and many of you fit the bill.
I agree. Unfortunately for you, the evidence is what does the talking to most people.Mr. Jones said:People who rely on the gov and its agencies to tell them what is happening are the real morons.
Read up on those paranoid delusions again. You're a fucking gullible twit who wants to believe the bullshit so badly that you ignore the evidence, common sense, logic and the science to further your anti-American agenda.Mr. Jones said:Many awake, rational, and critically thinking Americans who are aware of what the PTP, are doing to the nation and weigh the 2 theories about 9-11 will quickly see that they were being lied to.
Uh huh. Dream on truthtard. Come back when you have some real evidence to back up your bullshit claims.Mr. Jones said:The history of past crimes, corruption and conspiracies along with the actions of the Bush and Clinton administrations, and it's a no brainer. There is a massive cover up that is still taking place about 9-11.
There is ample evidence of lies and cover ups about 9-11, just because some people want to deny it, because their appeal to the lying authorities is a comfort to them does not mean the lies and cover ups that have been exposed are without merit. The fact that the US governments version and the NIST version have not been proven to be at all feasible nor reliable is all over the place for honest critically thinking people to investigate themselves, and those that want to understand the very real concerns of those that have exposed the lies and corruptions would do well by ignoring those that ignore the evidence that has been presented here and elsewhere.
It is utterly pathetic to claim that there is no proof of lies and cover ups by the US government officials that were involved in 9-11, and the laughable NIST theory, and many millions throughout the world are on board with the opinion that the explanation as told by the US and NIST are a deception.
So present the real evidence of the lies and cover ups about 9/11. You keep making the claim and then running away from presenting the "evidence" you claim to have.There is ample evidence of lies and cover ups about 9-11, just because some people want to deny it, because their appeal to the lying authorities is a comfort to them does not mean the lies and cover ups that have been exposed are without merit.
Wrong yet again. Wishful thinking on your part, but the NIST studies have been gone over in GREAT detail by numerous agencies and universities. They quibble over some of the finer points of the findings, but to date, not one reputable organization has come forward and said the NIST study is fundamentally wrong and that your claims are right. Why is that? A completely dishonest know nothing like you pretends to know everything about building engineering and what is and is not possible while at the same time trying to pretend the real experts are all liars and in on the cover up.Mr. Jones said:The fact that the US governments version and the NIST version have not been proven to be at all feasible nor reliable is all over the place for honest critically thinking people to investigate themselves, and those that want to understand the very real concerns of those that have exposed the lies and corruptions would do well by ignoring those that ignore the evidence that has been presented here and elsewhere.
Yet you STILL can't produce one real piece of evidence to back up your claims. When are you going to get around to producing this evidence? Until you actually produce this evidence, whining about everyone else lauging at your non-existant evidence is not only pathetic but rather childish.Mr. Jones said:It is utterly pathetic to claim that there is no proof of lies and cover ups by the US government officials that were involved in 9-11, and the laughable NIST theory, and many millions throughout the world are on board with the opinion that the explanation as told by the US and NIST are a deception.
We have been posting all the reasons we doubt their version for years, where as all you have done is ignore it, and resorted to far fetched imaginary ramblings while staunchly defending their official version that has been well debunked for years.No one has denied that the U.S. and NIST version are the absolute truth. In fact, no one has even claimed that the U.S. is not keeping certain information from the public. What everyone HERE is saying, is if there is SOOO much proof, where is it? Why haven't you posted it?
A simple search titled something like "9-11 truth" or "9-11 lies" will give you the much needed proof of reasonable doubt.
Not hardly all you do is keep parroting the same old version while ignoring the very real facts that the independant investigators have uncovered, and that does not qualify as proving anything "wrong", in your dreams maybe.Everything you've posted, thus far, has been proven wrong, or proven to not imply what you suggest.
It certainly wasn't obvious to your stupid ass, and I had to show you by quoting your posts and what was in the actual document and prove you absolutely wrong in your assumptions. You should re read the entire exchange again instead of denying you got your ass thoroughly kicked.You even attempted to post a document from 1962 and tried to connect it to 9/11 and that was proven wrong. All you did was "prove" the obvious...that the government is "capable" of things.
You can deny it all you want, but the truth is I had to lead you by the hand to show you what the NWDs doc was all about. Anyone who takes the time to read our exchange on the NWDs doc with a level of objectivity and honesty will learn just how wrong you still are about it.I'll be blunt, nothing you've posted has proven, or caused anyone here to "raise their eyebrows."
There are millions of people who do not agree with you, around the world. Shall I post the polls for you so you can see that you and those like you are becoming a shrinking minority?
We have been posting all the reasons we doubt their version for years, where as all you have done is ignore it, and resorted to far fetched imaginary ramblings while staunchly defending their official version that has been well debunked for years.No one has denied that the U.S. and NIST version are the absolute truth. In fact, no one has even claimed that the U.S. is not keeping certain information from the public. What everyone HERE is saying, is if there is SOOO much proof, where is it? Why haven't you posted it?
A simple search titled something like "9-11 truth" or "9-11 lies" will give you the much needed proof of reasonable doubt.
Not hardly all you do is keep parroting the same old version while ignoring the very real facts that the independant investigators have uncovered, and that does not qualify as proving anything "wrong", in your dreams maybe.
It certainly wasn't obvious to your stupid ass, and I had to show you by quoting your posts and what was in the actual document and prove you absolutely wrong in your assumptions. You should re read the entire exchange again instead of denying you got your ass thoroughly kicked.
You can deny it all you want, but the truth is I had to lead you by the hand to show you what the NWDs doc was all about. Anyone who takes the time to read our exchange on the NWDs doc with a level of objectivity and honesty will learn just how wrong you still are about it.I'll be blunt, nothing you've posted has proven, or caused anyone here to "raise their eyebrows."
There are millions of people who do not agree with you, around the world. Shall I post the polls for you so you can see that you and those like you are becoming a shrinking minority?
You are a certified, 100% whacko. You fit the definition of complete delusion. Only an idiot would be proven wrong and then claim he "handed" someone's ass to them. You were probably bullied in school.
Your previous post is exactly the reason why no one wants to listen to your bull shit. You bomb the entire thread with a list of crap from truther sites. You really believe everyone has enough time to sit down and read that entire post and address it sentence by sentence? Some of us have to work for a living. I'll tell you what. I challenge you.... Post a each conspiracy one at a time. Post one theory and your reason you think it's true, and if I can prove it wrong, I will post under it. If I can't, I'll tell you that I can't prove you wrong. Don't post the next theory until I, or someone else, has had a change to address it. (For example: You might post that you think the WTC were demolished and then post 1 reason why you can "prove" it. After you're proven wrong or right, then post the next reason you think you can "prove" that it was.
I don't have time to sit down and read a five page copy and paste.
There is sufficient proof and evidence to show that their is reasonable doubt about the official version of events.
“WHERE THE HELL IS YOUR PROOF?”
You claim that the President and his handlers have told you the truth. You refuse to consider the information we show you that punches huge holes into the official version. You refuse to check out the information for yourself. You tell us what we have uncovered is false. Okay, we’ll buy that, we’ll concede that you’re right...and that all of us are wrong.
In fact, we’ll take it all back and admit the errors of our ways IF you do something first. Show us YOUR proof. Tell us why we should believe the story you have swallowed, and show us what you have to back up your claims!
Where the Hell Is YOUR 9/11 Proof?
We have posted and linked to our claims as to why we have our doubts, now it is time for you to show us the non believers, what concrete evidence the official version has that makes you believe them. In other words what makes their version so indisputably correct??
The following is a start I copied for those interested in doing their own research.
The simple question of “who benefited” from the events of 9-11 can in many cases be answered by saying “the people who were supposed to prevent 9-11”. Doesn’t that make you just a little bit curious? It should.
So you think it ludicrous to suggest that a rogue group within our government was involved in the events of September 11th, 2001? You don’t even think it is worth your time to examine the overwhelming physical evidence that is available for your viewing, which at the very least disproves the official “conspiracy theory” put forth by the government and their mouthpieces in the corporate media?
9/11 Facts
Let me ask you folks some questions. Help me out here. If I am to ignore all the physical evidence that indicates government complicity I need you to explain to me why I should ignore the unprecedented actions by the Bush administration preceding the events, that seem to have no other purpose other than to prevent an event like 9/11 from being stopped and to prepare to set in motion their pre-planned agenda that would only be accepted after an event like 9/11.
PNAC
1 We Could Never Imagine Planes Used to Attack Us - We have been told that the US was not only unprepared for defending our nation against planes used as weapons but we were told by our National Security Advisor, Condoleezza Rice that we never imagined such a thing.
Question: Why do you believe that the US was not prepared to prevent such an event when we had held drills for just such an event in the past?
USATODAY.com - NORAD had drills of jets as weapons
QUESTION: Why do you believe that we had no idea anyone would fly a plane into the WTC when an FBI agent warned of the very thing only to have his warnings dismissed?
Excite News
Agent Cited WTC Attack Ahead of 9/11
Excite News
2 There is a great deal of information indicating the fact that one of the first directives of the Bush administration upon taking office was to have the intelligence community back off of all investigations into Osama Bin Laden and his family.
Question: Why was the Bush administration protecting Bin Laden? Why do you ignore the close ties between the Bush family and the Bin Laden family?
Bin Laden Ties
3 Are you aware that Dov S. Zakheim, a former vice president of System Planning Corp., a defense contractor which makes remote control and flight termination products, was sworn in as the Under Secretary of Defense?
Question: Did you know that remote controlled flight was possible and that someone who was very involved with this technology was a member of the Bush administration?
System Planning Corporation
The Truth Seeker - Dov Zakheim and the 9/11 Conspiracy
4 During June 2001 the US was planning military action against Afghanistan.
QUESTION: Why was the US planning on military action against Afghanistan before the events of 9/11 took place? Why would Congress permit this? 9/11 was the official reason for the military action against Afghanistan.
BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | US 'planned attack on Taleban'
Question: Doesn’t common sense suggest to you that it might just be possible that the administration was in search of a legal and publicly acceptable excuse to attack Afghanistan and install a US friendly government with a former UNOCAL Oil company consultant, with ties to the Bush family business, as it’s new leader?
Unocal Gets Its Pipeline Through Afghanistan
5 Attorney General John Ashcroft stops flying commercial aircrafts three months before 9/11 due to threats.
Question: Why did he stop flying commercial aircrafts? What did he know?
Ashcroft Flying High - CBS News
6 All of a sudden. prior to 9/11/2001, the procedures for military response to hijacked aircrafts were changed where military response had to be approved by Donald Rumseld. Donald Rumsfled is a member of the PNAC organization that publicly professed that a “New Pearl Harbor” would benefit their agenda.
Donald Rumsfeld
Neocons/PNAC, Donald Rumsfeld, Iraq War | Crooks and Liars
QUESTION: Why were procedures specifically involving hijackings changed? Were the old procedures problematic? Why was a person who could benefit from an event like a hijacking given the responsibility of handling them?
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjcsd/cjcsi/3610_01a.pdf
7 Osama Bin Laden undergoes medical treatment at the American Hospital in Dubai, United Arab Emirates where he is met by a local CIA chief.
QUESTION: If Bin Laden was our enemy, why was the CIA meeting with him just before the events of 9/11? Is it possible that the CIA or rogue members of the CIA were arranging the events of 9/11? Is it at least possible?
CIA agent alleged to have met Bin Laden in July | World news | The Guardian
8 A 40-year-old Federal Aviation Administration rule that allowed commercial airline pilots to be armed was inexplicably rescinded two months before the Sept. 11 attacks.
Question: Why in the world was this rule changed at this particular point in history?
Armed pilots banned<br>2 months before 9-11
9 August 25, 2001 - Raytheon and the U.S. Air Force successfully auto lands a FedEx Boeing 727, without any pilots, six times at Holloman AFB, N.M. using a military GPS landing system that will enable ground control take control a hijacked airplane and force land it.
Question: Do you still think that unskilled pilots who were supposedly flying without the assistance of air traffic control were the only possible people who could have flown jets into buildings?
Raytheon delivers ATC Simulation System to Poland
10 September 7, 2001 - Jeb Bush signs a two year Florida executive emergency order four days before 9/11 "WHEREAS, the Florida National Guard has the statutory responsibility to provide support to law-enforcement personnel and emergency-management personnel in the event of civil disturbances or natural disasters;"
QUESTION: Why would he do this? He was governor for years, why do it days before 9/11? No other governor ever did anything like this before.
Jeb Declared Martial Law In FL On 9-7 - Dubya's Obscure 'Goat Story'
11 # September 10, 2001 - A group of top Pentagon officials cancel their travel plans for the next morning because of security concerns.
QUESTION: Do you still think they did not know anything was up?
9-11 Research: Attack Warnings
Bush: 'We're At War' - Newsweek
12 September 10, 2001 - Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld announces that the Pentagon has lost track of $2.3 TRILLION DOLLARS of military spending. - September 10, 2001 - Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld warns of Iraq's pursuit of WMD's hours before US and British planes bomb Iraqi missile sites.
QUESTION: Why is one of the people who wanted to invade Iraq and Afghanistan for years, suddenly bringing up Iraq? Do you find the timing of this the least bit suspicious? Did you ever find out what happened to the missing $2.3 TRILLION?
The War On Waste - CBS Evening News - CBS News
13 September 10, 2001 - U.S. OK’d plan to topple the Taliban and expel Osama bin Laden from Afghanistan.
QUESTION: How would they be allowed to do this without the events of 9/11? How can they prepare for a war before the reason for the war occurs?
White House planned to topple Taliban - US news - Security - msnbc.com
14 Although there are dozens, if not hundreds of questions I can add to this list I will ask only one more series of questions:
QUESTION: Do you know anything about the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) and about Operation Northwoods? Why not? PNAC runs this government. They had motives for permitting or conducting the events of 9/11. Operation Northwoods proves that our nation would indeed harm it’s own people and blame it on another nation in order to gain support for military operations. For those of you who think FOX News is fair and balanced do research and you will find out that the chairman of PNAC is a regular face on FOX News. He is represented as an impartial journalist when in fact he is the chairman of the group that has written and implemented our foreign policy under Bush. I’ll let you do some research about this. It’s about time you finally started looking for some facts on your own.
PNAC
PNAC Neo-Con Artists
OPERATION NORTHWOODS
The question of whether or not these actions took place is not up for debate. Research the issues. Nobody involved denies that they took place. What is in question is why they took place and if they indicate the anticipation of an event such as 9/11.
The bottom line is that there is a great deal of information out there and there are many questions that have not been answered and the people who support the official conspiracy theory are not able to support their beliefs.
If you can not find a reasonable explanation for these actions then you have no choice other than to reconsider the simple possibility that some people within our government and intelligence apparatus may have been anticipating an event like 9/11 and this would require you as a responsible patriotic citizen, to research the issues surrounding 9/11.
I have a few questions for you people of blind faith…did you ever think about the fact that you never seem to dispute the facts presented to you by the independent 9/11 research community; you only call the fact presenters names. I see you out there on all those forums and news groups. You lose every argument. All you are left with is your toolkit of mantras and names. You know what they are, and you also know that you never back up your position with facts.
POINT: MOTIVE HAS ALREADY BEEN ESTABLISHED: Please keep in mind that motive for Bush administration complicity in the events of 9/11 has been clearly established. If you do not yet know what the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) is it is high time you became aware of this organization.
If you are going to deny the findings of the independent 9/11 research community then it is incumbent upon you to provide a detailed and verifiable counter argument. If you can not do this you are basically living in denial and even worse you might be supporting the very people who committed or permitted the atrocities of September 11th 2001. Don’t you think you owe it to yourself, to the victims of the event and to your nation to start taking a closer look at the events of 9/11 and at the people responsible for preventing it?
For those of you who can not imagine anything other than the official conspiracy theory, as you take into account all the recorded hijacking messages from the FAA and from the passengers on the planes, here is something to think about. On the morning of September 11th 2001, there were several NORAD, FAA & FEMA drills taking place in the north eastern United States. Some of the drills involved hijackings where live fly simulations as well as electronic, video game like drills were taking place. Perhaps the people making the calls thought they were taking part in a drill? Maybe the members of the airlines asked for volunteers to make these calls in order to test the response team. Perhaps even the hijackers thought they were taking part in drills; after all several of the listed hijackers were known to have been trained in CIA facilities and lived among the intelligence community in Florida.
Am I saying I know what took place on September 11th 2001. No. What I am saying is that virtually every aspect of the official conspiracy theory put forth by our government has been debunked. The Bush administration saw to it that the evidence was destroyed and that the only investigation that would take place was conducted by a group of people who each had a conflict of interest when it came to uncovering the truth.
Whistle blowers were not permitted to testify to the Kean Commission and the investigate body never asked for people with inside information to come forward or to testify. Many whistle blowers were denied access to the commission. The Kean Commission was in fact created in order to do document the official conspiracy theory; they were not tasked with finding out what really happened.
On the other hand, the independent research community has taken it upon themselves to explore the facts and ask the real questions.
You know, there is a huge difference between a conspiracy theory and reasonable suspicion. The closer you look the more you will realize that it is the official story of 9/11 that adheres to the definition of a conspiracy theory, while some of the conclusions made by the independent research community are not only reasonable but they are quite plausible and very probable.
EDITOR’S NOTE: Deny this if you must but it is a clear fact that there are Americans, both civilian and in our government, for whom the events of 9/11/2001 were the greatest thing that ever happened. Defense industry owners and investors became wealthy with a newly guaranteed income stream flowing from the pockets of frightened Americans into their own pockets. Members of the Bush administration received virtually unlimited power to proceed with their agenda, which without the events of 9/11 would have been viewed as insane, radical and in most cases unconstitutional. The events of 9/11 were virtually the only chance the members of PNAC would have ever had to proceed with their radical and un-American agenda. The truth is that these folks (PNAC) needed 9/11 to happen (which they clearly stated in their documentation) and they were in the position to make sure that it did. That is a fact. If that does not make you suspicious I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you!
9/11 - US Complicity: Implausible, or Very Probable?
Reasons are not evidence, ya twit!We have been posting all the reasons we doubt their version for years, where as all you have done is ignore it, and resorted to far fetched imaginary ramblings while staunchly defending their official version that has been well debunked for years.
In other words you have nothing and have to try and hope someone else comes up with something via google.Mr. Jones said:A simple search titled something like "9-11 truth" or "9-11 lies" will give you the much needed proof of reasonable doubt.
What a piece of shit loser!Yet you STILL can't present ANYONE with one real piece of evidence any of your bullshit is true.Mr. Jones said:Not hardly all you do is keep parroting the same old version while ignoring the very real facts that the independant investigators have uncovered, and that does not qualify as proving anything "wrong", in your dreams maybe.
Mr. Jones said:It certainly wasn't obvious to your stupid ass, and I had to show you by quoting your posts and what was in the actual document and prove you absolutely wrong in your assumptions. You should re read the entire exchange again instead of denying you got your ass thoroughly kicked.
The only one who got his ass kicked (and kicked repeatedly I might add) is you. You lied your ass off time and time again and had to resort to putting words in people's mouths before you could even make a point.No, all you did is preach about how if they were evil enough then then they are evil enough now. You couldn't even BEGIN to address all the issues with your theory.Mr. Jones said:You can deny it all you want, but the truth is I had to lead you by the hand to show you what the NWDs doc was all about.I'll be blunt, nothing you've posted has proven, or caused anyone here to "raise their eyebrows."
Pretty pathetic!The only one wrong about them is you. Taking the PLANS of people from the 60s and trying to pretend it is evidence of ACTIONS by completely different people fourty years later is about as retarded as one can get.Mr. Jones said:Anyone who takes the time to read our exchange on the NWDs doc with a level of objectivity and honesty will learn just how wrong you still are about it.
Mr. Jones said:There are millions of people who do not agree with you, around the world. Shall I post the polls for you so you can see that you and those like you are becoming a shrinking minority?
You mean the polls you have to lie your ass off with in order to prove your "point"? Like pretending anyone who has any doubts at all about 9/11 actually believes YOUR bullshit? Yeah, right, asshole!1 We Could Never Imagine Planes Used to Attack Us - We have been told that the US was not only unprepared for defending our nation against planes used as weapons but we were told by our National Security Advisor, Condoleezza Rice that we never imagined such a thing.
Question: Why do you believe that the US was not prepared to prevent such an event when we had held drills for just such an event in the past?
USATODAY.com - NORAD had drills of jets as weapons
QUESTION: Why do you believe that we had no idea anyone would fly a plane into the WTC when an FBI agent warned of the very thing only to have his warnings dismissed?
Excite News
Agent Cited WTC Attack Ahead of 9/11
My answer using the same sites you posted.
NORAD officials have acknowledged that "scriptwriters" for the drills included the idea of hijacked aircraft being used as weapons.
"Threats of killing hostages or crashing were left to the scriptwriters to invoke creativity and broaden the required response," Maj. Gen. Craig McKinley, a NORAD official, told the 9/11 commission. No exercise matched the specific events of Sept. 11, NORAD said.
"We have planned and executed numerous scenarios over the years to include aircraft originating from foreign airports penetrating our sovereign airspace," Gen. Ralph Eberhart, NORAD commander, told USA TODAY. "Regrettably, the tragic events of 9/11 were never anticipated or exercised."
USATODAY.com - NORAD had drills of jets as weapons
Hill said the headquarters agent responded, "That's not going to happen. We don't know he's a terrorist. You don't have enough to show he is a terrorist
Hill said New York FBI personnel who reviewed the memo found it "speculative and not particularly significant." They said they knew some flight students were affiliated with bin Laden, she said, but believed they were intended to fly goods and personnel in Afghanistan.
The supervisor said he had no reason to believe Moussaoui was planning such an attack, but made the remark in a frustrated attempt to convince headquarters that a special search warrant was needed to search Moussaoui's computer, investigator Eleanor Hill told a House-Senate committee investigating the Sept. 11 attacks.
Excite News
The FBI has admitted that it did not investigate Moussaoui hard enough. An admission of guilt? This looks more like incompetence than a conspiracy. There's a little thing law enforcement are encouraged to enforce, and that's called civil rights. The agent said that he THOUGHT they MIGHT fly planes into a building. This does not prove a conspiracy. 1 down.
Posted by Mr. Jones
2 There is a great deal of information indicating the fact that one of the first directives of the Bush administration upon taking office was to have the intelligence community back off of all investigations into Osama Bin Laden and his family.
Question: Why was the Bush administration protecting Bin Laden? Why do you ignore the close ties between the Bush family and the Bin Laden family?
My Answer
Bin Laden Ties
"Al-Qaeda's spokesman, Sulaiman Abu Ghaith, said in a video sent to al Jazeera and broadcast in October 2001 the following:
The Americans should know that the storm of plane attacks will not abate, with God's permission. There are thousands of the Islamic nation's youths who are eager to die just as the Americans are eager to live.[55]"
"In November 2001, US forces recovered a videotape from a bombed house in Jalalabad, Afghanistan which showed a man purported to be Osama bin Laden talking to Khaled al-Harbi. In the tape, bin Laden talks of planning the attacks. Translations from the tape include the following lines:
...we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all...We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day. We had finished our work that day and had the radio on...Muhammad (Atta) from the Egyptian family (meaning the al-Qaeda Egyptian group), was in charge of the group...The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded the planes.[68]"
"
On February 11, 2003, Al Jazeera broadcast an audio tape purportedly from bin Laden.[70]
Shortly before the US presidential election in 2004, in a taped statement, bin Laden publicly acknowledged al-Qaeda's involvement in the attacks on the US, and admitted his direct link to the attacks. He said that the attacks were carried out because "we are a free people who do not accept injustice, and we want to regain the freedom of our nation."
In an audio message that surfaced on the Internet in May 2006 the speaker, who is alleged to be Osama bin Laden, defends Zacarias Moussaoui, who was undergoing a trial for his participation in the September 11 attacks. The voice in the audio message says
"I begin by talking about the honorable brother Zacarias Moussaoui. The truth is that he has no connection whatsoever with the events of September 11th, and I am certain of what I say, because I was responsible for entrusting the 19 brothers Allah have mercy upon them with those raids, and I did not assign brother Zacarias to be with them on that mission."[71]
Responsibility for the September 11 attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Osama doesn't matter...the fact that OTHER Al Qaeda members have claimed responsibility says enough. Osama originally denied involvement, but it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. The fact that the terrorist were linked to Al Qaeda says it all... 2 Down.
1 We Could Never Imagine Planes Used to Attack Us - We have been told that the US was not only unprepared for defending our nation against planes used as weapons but we were told by our National Security Advisor, Condoleezza Rice that we never imagined such a thing.
Question: Why do you believe that the US was not prepared to prevent such an event when we had held drills for just such an event in the past?
USATODAY.com - NORAD had drills of jets as weapons
QUESTION: Why do you believe that we had no idea anyone would fly a plane into the WTC when an FBI agent warned of the very thing only to have his warnings dismissed?
Excite News
Agent Cited WTC Attack Ahead of 9/11
My answer using the same sites you posted.
NORAD officials have acknowledged that "scriptwriters" for the drills included the idea of hijacked aircraft being used as weapons.
"Threats of killing hostages or crashing were left to the scriptwriters to invoke creativity and broaden the required response," Maj. Gen. Craig McKinley, a NORAD official, told the 9/11 commission. No exercise matched the specific events of Sept. 11, NORAD said.
"We have planned and executed numerous scenarios over the years to include aircraft originating from foreign airports penetrating our sovereign airspace," Gen. Ralph Eberhart, NORAD commander, told USA TODAY. "Regrettably, the tragic events of 9/11 were never anticipated or exercised."
USATODAY.com - NORAD had drills of jets as weapons
Hill said the headquarters agent responded, "That's not going to happen. We don't know he's a terrorist. You don't have enough to show he is a terrorist
Hill said New York FBI personnel who reviewed the memo found it "speculative and not particularly significant." They said they knew some flight students were affiliated with bin Laden, she said, but believed they were intended to fly goods and personnel in Afghanistan.
The supervisor said he had no reason to believe Moussaoui was planning such an attack, but made the remark in a frustrated attempt to convince headquarters that a special search warrant was needed to search Moussaoui's computer, investigator Eleanor Hill told a House-Senate committee investigating the Sept. 11 attacks.
Excite News
The FBI has admitted that it did not investigate Moussaoui hard enough. An admission of guilt? This looks more like incompetence than a conspiracy. There's a little thing law enforcement are encouraged to enforce, and that's called civil rights. The agent said that he THOUGHT they MIGHT fly planes into a building. This does not prove a conspiracy. 1 down.
"In the two years before the Sept. 11 attacks, the North American Aerospace Defense Command conducted exercises simulating what the White House says was unimaginable at the time: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties."
Defending this lie by saying they practiced for "foreign" flights and not domestic aircraft is weak, and would not stand up as a good defense in front of a jury. The scenario was planes hitting buildings, who the hell cares where they come from if ultimately the planes are in our airspace?
"One of the imagined targets was the World Trade Center. In another exercise, jets performed a mock shootdown over the Atlantic Ocean of a jet supposedly laden with chemical poisons headed toward a target in the United States. In a third scenario, the target was the Pentagon but that drill was not run after Defense officials said it was unrealistic, NORAD and Defense officials say.
NORAD, in a written statement, confirmed that such hijacking exercises occurred. It said the scenarios outlined were regional drills, not regularly scheduled continent-wide exercises.
"Numerous types of civilian and military aircraft were used as mock hijacked aircraft," the statement said. "These exercises tested track detection and identification; scramble and interception; hijack procedures; internal and external agency coordination and operational security and communications security procedures."
It proves that Rice and the others who went on national TV and made the statement that "we couldn't ever imagine planes being used" was a deliberate lie. designed to give "oops" type of excuse and feign incompetence, rather then at least negligence, and at worst culpability.
The fact that there were drills with plane hitting buildings scenarios, and the pentagon, raises suspicion, and calls her/their credibility into questionable territory.
Reasonable doubt is thus placed on her and the administrations credibility and statement.
1 lie is thus added to the sum of the whole.
Keep in mind that 1 instance did not convince me of negligence or a conspiracy, as we proceed forward and add up all these things most rational people will admit that there are just too many of these 'coincidences" misstatements, and inconsistencies to be believable.
Posted by Mr. Jones
2 There is a great deal of information indicating the fact that one of the first directives of the Bush administration upon taking office was to have the intelligence community back off of all investigations into Osama Bin Laden and his family.
Question: Why was the Bush administration protecting Bin Laden? Why do you ignore the close ties between the Bush family and the Bin Laden family?
My Answer
Bin Laden Ties
"Al-Qaeda's spokesman, Sulaiman Abu Ghaith, said in a video sent to al Jazeera and broadcast in October 2001 the following:
The Americans should know that the storm of plane attacks will not abate, with God's permission. There are thousands of the Islamic nation's youths who are eager to die just as the Americans are eager to live.[55]"
"In November 2001, US forces recovered a videotape from a bombed house in Jalalabad, Afghanistan which showed a man purported to be Osama bin Laden talking to Khaled al-Harbi. In the tape, bin Laden talks of planning the attacks. Translations from the tape include the following lines:
...we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all...We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day. We had finished our work that day and had the radio on...Muhammad (Atta) from the Egyptian family (meaning the al-Qaeda Egyptian group), was in charge of the group...The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded the planes.[68]"
"
On February 11, 2003, Al Jazeera broadcast an audio tape purportedly from bin Laden.[70]
Shortly before the US presidential election in 2004, in a taped statement, bin Laden publicly acknowledged al-Qaeda's involvement in the attacks on the US, and admitted his direct link to the attacks. He said that the attacks were carried out because "we are a free people who do not accept injustice, and we want to regain the freedom of our nation."
In an audio message that surfaced on the Internet in May 2006 the speaker, who is alleged to be Osama bin Laden, defends Zacarias Moussaoui, who was undergoing a trial for his participation in the September 11 attacks. The voice in the audio message says
"I begin by talking about the honorable brother Zacarias Moussaoui. The truth is that he has no connection whatsoever with the events of September 11th, and I am certain of what I say, because I was responsible for entrusting the 19 brothers Allah have mercy upon them with those raids, and I did not assign brother Zacarias to be with them on that mission."[71]
Responsibility for the September 11 attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Osama doesn't matter...the fact that OTHER Al Qaeda members have claimed responsibility says enough. Osama originally denied involvement, but it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. The fact that the terrorist were linked to Al Qaeda says it all... 2 Down.
Question: Why was the Bush administration protecting Bin Laden? Why do you ignore the close ties between the Bush family and the Bin Laden family?
OBL was the alleged mastermind and spiritual leader that Bush swore to find "dead or alive". His name was plastered all over the MSM and was constantly drilled into the psyche of the American public. The fact that most of the public has no idea just how close the Bin ladens and the Bushs are was kept secret for good reason. The flights allowing the Bin Ladens to fly out of the country when all other flights were grounded is another proof of this strange conflict of interest friendship, and calls into question whether this "loyalty" to friends was put above the loyalty to the nation.
This does not prove a conspiracy, but yet again is but one piece of the overall picture people put together, that raises a reasonable doubt about the honesty, sincerity, and veracity to "find em dead or alive".
2 reasonable doubt sustained.
Bush - bin Laden family business connections
