Two states solution is not working.

[dosmin.pavas]

After 2 decades of failure of the Oslo process to achieve the so called two states solution its time to realize that its not working and we need to change our plan. I am open to different ideas, Anything but the Oslo process! The Oslo process for two state solution is the politically correct position, but it will not lead to peace. If you really care about peace as I do, its time to realize its a dead end!

IF you tell Israelis Israel goes out of Judea and Samaria (West bank) and there will be peace, everyone in Israel will say yes. But the world is beginning to realize, that is a very BIG IF! and that Palestinians will create a base of terror.

Lets analyze the fabric of time and space in terms of peace and well being of the Arabs and Jews:
-When Israel acquired the territories in 1967, the life of people in those territories improved. forexample their life expectancy rose from 48 years to 74 years.
- When Israel left Gaza the situation of people there got worse and we got war.
- When Israel left Lebanon the situation of people there got worse and we got war.
- When Israel Partially left Judea and Samaria the situation of people there got worse and we got terror.
- Today Israel has full control of the Golan heights. There is almost no terror and have high quality of life.
- Israel is Partially in Judea and Samaria and those people live a worse life under the terrorism of the PLO.
- Israel is absent in Gaza and people there have even a worse life.

The evidence is overwhelming. The problems of the Arabs is not Israel's presence so much as it is Israels absence.

I do not recommend the so called one state solution as it brings too many radical Muslims into Israels voting system. I suggest one of the following approaches:
- Do in Judea and Samaria what Israel is doing in Golan heights. Its working! (my favorite)
- Jordan annexes west bank.
- like US Israel can be multi-state country.

There is no perfect or ideal solution and we need to pragmatically make the best of a bad situation and middle east is a very difficult situation. Idealistic zealots create war.

Also note that we already have 2 states: Jordan and Israel

 

[Shusha]

Can you clarify what you mean by "what Israel is doing in the Golan Heights"? Do you mean Israel should annex and control Judea and Samaria?

 

[dosmin.pavas]

Kind of. Israel has given them some sort of gean card which gives them all sort of benefits but they can't vote. Israel has extended the rule of law to Golan.

 

[Shusha]

Permanent residence status. Lots of bennies. But no control.

 

[Penelope]

Hows this when the Zionist encroached like flies into Palestine , things got bad for the Palestinians. Your right, its too late for a 2 state solution since the Zionist have stolen so much of the Palestinian land.

 

[Phoenall]

Hows this when the Zionist encroached like flies into Palestine , things got bad for the Palestinians. Your right, its too late for a 2 state solution since the Zionist have stolen so much of the Palestinian land.

How about the truth for once penny that shows the Jews were invited to come to Palestine and when they did things got better for the Jews already living in Palestine. The muslim scum were prevented from stealing their hard earned money and goods by the newly formed Jewish defence groups.
You do realise that there is already a two state solution in place with Jordan being 78% of Palestine and Israel making up the remaining 22%. So why don't the arab Palestinians go to arab Palestine where they belong.

 

[Boston1]

I couldn't agree more Pavas. Although I'd modify the plan slightly I think your on to something.

Israel and Jordan IS the two state solution. Jordan illegally stripped the Arab Muslims in Israel of their citizenship a few decades ago due to both their own internal strife and in order to stick Israel with an Arab Muslim mob.

I'd aim for taking full advantage of the Geneva Conventions, realizing that forced repatriation is not illegal. The US did it after WWII ( operation Keelhaul ) and when challenged in court, turns out it was perfectly legal. A host nation is not required to offer asylum to former enemy combatants.

I agree the Oslo accords should be scrapped. The Arab Muslim mob's dictators and welfare collectors have stated long ago they would no longer adhere to them

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...YVgbc9aWli60JBLQvyJhWQ&bvm=bv.117218890,d.amc

So there's really no point.

IMHO the Israeli's best move would be to take the terrorist enclaves one at a time. Halt all UN aid to the terrorists until the status of everyone within that particular enclave can be determined and act on those designations accordingly.

The walls and security barriers would enable Israel to effectively isolate each enclave ( one at a time of course ) and only offer aid at specific determination centers where each Arab Muslims status can be determined exactly in accord with the Conventions. Once its known who is a combatant ( legal or illegal ) and who is a protected person ( civilian or refugee ) then Israel can act from there as to who stays and who goes.

I like the idea you are presenting that the Arab Muslims must chose or go to Jordan however you can't make a blanket determination which results in the forced expulsion of any large number of what has to be assumed to be the civilian population.

A determination must first be made on an individual basis in order for it to be legal.

But I agree, Israel needs to start playing hardball with these jerks

 

[RoccoR]

Shusha, et al,

There are several issues, components or consequences, regarding the Arab-Israeli Conflict that will be, for the foreseeable future, a thorn in the side of Israel. It has been the subject of many a propaganda media thesis; both in print and presentations in audio-visual forms. The peripheral general consensus is that much of the international community consider that Israel’s residential housing communities, commercial and economic developments built in Golan (Heights) are “illegal” --- "established in breach of international law" (using the words of the International Court of Justice).

Similarly, there are arguments which wrestle with the true scope and nature of the occupation and control of Judea, Samaria, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, AND certain parts of Jerusalem.

The Arab League position, as well as the incoherent and segmented position of the Palestinians, is that nothing Jewish --- or that derived from recommendations of the General Assembly --- that results in the formation of Israeli sovereignty is legal or legitimately proper. And since this is the selective option the international community has chosen to accept, the Jewish State of Israel has no other option than to take such action that is necessary to preserve and defend the Jewish National Home from the elements within the International Community which are intent to adopt such actions that will result in the dissemination of the Jewish National Home.

ONE POINT of INTEREST:

The use of the phrase "Customary and International Humanitarian Law" (IHL) on the topic of "Occupation" and the "Annexation" of territory:

A Few Examples: Where the international community did not handle according to Customary and IHL:

• The Invasion and subsequent Occupation and ultimately the Annexation of Tibet by the People's Republic of China (PRC). The PRC likes to refer to it as the "reincorporation" or the peaceful liberation."

• When the 3 Western Allied Powers (occupation forces of Germany) agreed to allow France to annex the Saar.

• The annexation of East Timor as the 27th Province of Indonesia.

• The “secession” of Nagorno-Karabakh (unrecognized by everyone, including Armenia), and the occupation of seven Azerbaijani districts, known as the Lachin Corridor.

• The annexation of the Crimea by the Russian Federation.
​

There is not standard in international law in which these types of sovereign acquisitions are accomplished through occupation and annexation. There is no standard, protocol or usual practices that can be applied. It is all subjective and selective.

I have heard a number of people cite Article 49(6) of the Fourth Geneva Convention in various ways.

Can you clarify what you mean by "what Israel is doing in the Golan Heights"? Do you mean Israel should annex and control Judea and Samaria?

(COMMENT)

The international lawyer Prof. Eugene V. Rostow, a former dean of Yale Law School and Undersecretary of State, stated in 1990:

T]he Convention prohibits many of the inhumane practices of the Nazis and the Soviet Union during and before the Second World War – the mass transfer of people into and out of occupied territories for purposes of extermination, slave labor or colonization, for example….The Jewish settlers in the West Bank are most emphatically volunteers. They have not been “deported” or “transferred” to the area by the Government of Israel, and their movement involves none of the atrocious purposes or harmful effects on the existing population it is the goal of the Geneva Convention to prevent.
​

Most recently, I heard one of contributors cite the WWII Nuremberg Tribunals --- and --- attempt to draw a connection and comparison between the NAZIs and Israelis.

Ambassador Morris Abram, a member of the U.S. staff at the Nuremberg Tribunal and later involved in the drafting of the Fourth Geneva Convention, is on record as stating that the convention:

"was not designed to cover situations like Israeli settlements in the occupied territories, but rather the forcible transfer, deportation or resettlement of large numbers of people."
​

In some cases, the literal interpretation of the purpose and intent of legal guidance and protections of over a half century ago is not the same as the intent of the Arab Palestinians justify their continued armed struggle and Jihad to entangle Israel. This is compounded by the fact that the Arab Palestinian only accepts the critical view; and not the view of how, say in the Golan, the Druze would feel under the approach of DAESH.

ISIS in Golan gets new chief

Shuhada al-Yarmouk, the ISIS affiliate on Israel's Golan border, has changed leadership from a Syrian-Palestinian to a Saudi, a possible sign of ISIS central leadership trying to rein in the group.
Roi Kais 03.21.16, Y-Net News
​

While thare are claims that many Druze in the Golan continued to pledge their loyalty to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad; this may change given that the al-Assad Government cannot offer Druze villages the same measure of protection as Israel.

There is always a possibility that the Golan (Heights) population, after the radicalized Islamic threat is eliminated, that they will want to by Syrians again.

But to claim that the annexation is outright "illegal" has yet to be litigated.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Boston1]

I suspect the issue hasn't been brought before a court is because many in the international community realize the outcome can only be that since the territory was unclaimed in the first place and set aside for the creation of a national Jewish homeland in the second. Israel actually has the strongest claim.

 

[dosmin.pavas]

Dear Boston1, Thanks for your response. Taking over Judea and Samrea is going to be a military headache but not impossible.

I like the idea you are presenting that the Arab Muslims must chose or go to Jordan however you can't make a blanket determination which results in the forced expulsion of any large number of what has to be assumed to be the civilian population.

When did I say Arabs in Judea and Samarea should go or chose to go to Jordan? I do not promote ethnic cleansing of Jews or Arabs.

Conflict that will be, for the foreseeable future, a thorn in the side of Israel. It has been the subject of many a propaganda media thesis; both in print and presentations in audio-visual forms. The peripheral general consensus is that much of the international community consider that Israel’s residential housing communities, commercial and economic developments built in Golan (Heights) are “illegal” --- "established in breach of international law" (using the words of the International Court of Justice).

Similarly, there are arguments which wrestle with the true scope and nature of the occupation and control of Judea, Samaria, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, AND certain parts of Jerusalem.

The Arab League position, as well as the incoherent and segmented position of the Palestinians, is that nothing Jewish --- or that derived from recommendations of the General Assembly --- that results in the formation of Israeli sovereignty is legal or legitimately proper. And since this is the selective option the international community has chosen to accept, the Jewish State of Israel has no other option than to take such action that is necessary to preserve and defend the Jewish National Home from the elements within the International Community which are intent to adopt such actions that will result in the dissemination of the Jewish National Home.

Dear RoccoR, Thanks for your legal analysis of the situation. Its pretty clear that the world makes up international law with the sole intention of demonizing Israel even if it means hurting the Arabs too. Note that when extended our rule of law to Golan the hole world voted against us, but we did it anyway and it worked! The hole world condemned operation Opera, but we did it anyway and it worked! We should not worry about the world so much. We need to stop thinking about the world and do what we think is best for us.

Note that I am note suggesting that we should annex Judea and Samarea but merely extend the rule of law so that we can get rid of terror and create a better condition for the Arabs until a permanent solution can be found or as Naftali Bennet would put it, an imperfect solution: economic peace.

 

[Hossfly]

Hows this when the Zionist encroached like flies into Palestine , things got bad for the Palestinians. Your right, its too late for a 2 state solution since the Zionist have stolen so much of the Palestinian land.

In the first place, Moses relayed to the Tribes the information that the new Promised Land of Israel was to be their homeland. Do you think Moses lied?

 

[Penelope]

Hows this when the Zionist encroached like flies into Palestine , things got bad for the Palestinians. Your right, its too late for a 2 state solution since the Zionist have stolen so much of the Palestinian land.

In the first place, Moses relayed to the Tribes the information that the new Promised Land of Israel was to be their homeland. Do you think Moses lied?

First off there is no proof of any mosses existing beyond the OT and copied into the NT. Moses also could say whatever he wanted and that doesn't make it so. If there was a Moses, he was most likely speaking and telling the people that he knew what he was doing so follow him, not unlike our politicians today.

Moses story was taken from Sargon. There is no historical evident of the exodus or any slaves in Egypt.

 

[Hossfly]

Hows this when the Zionist encroached like flies into Palestine , things got bad for the Palestinians. Your right, its too late for a 2 state solution since the Zionist have stolen so much of the Palestinian land.

In the first place, Moses relayed to the Tribes the information that the new Promised Land of Israel was to be their homeland. Do you think Moses lied?

First off there is no proof of any mosses existing beyond the OT and copied into the NT. Moses also could say whatever he wanted and that doesn't make it so. If there was a Moses, he was most likely speaking and telling the people that he knew what he was doing so follow him, not unlike our politicians today.

Moses story was taken from Sargon. There is no historical evident of the exodus or any slaves in Egypt.

Well sir, I believe it, the Christians and Jews believe it and that's the only thing that counts. Suck it up.

 

[Phoenall]

Hows this when the Zionist encroached like flies into Palestine , things got bad for the Palestinians. Your right, its too late for a 2 state solution since the Zionist have stolen so much of the Palestinian land.

In the first place, Moses relayed to the Tribes the information that the new Promised Land of Israel was to be their homeland. Do you think Moses lied?

First off there is no proof of any mosses existing beyond the OT and copied into the NT. Moses also could say whatever he wanted and that doesn't make it so. If there was a Moses, he was most likely speaking and telling the people that he knew what he was doing so follow him, not unlike our politicians today.

Moses story was taken from Sargon. There is no historical evident of the exodus or any slaves in Egypt.

Then do you believe that Gabriel spoke to mo'mad and told him allah commanded the muslims to take the whole world as they were his chosen people ?

 

[RoccoR]

Hossfly, Penelope, et al,

The cultural beliefs pertaining to Mûsâ ibn Amram (AKA; Moses), is not so radically different in the basic. "The Koran states that the Supreme Being bestowed the Torah on Moses (a prophet and messenger of the Supreme Being) as an introduction and caution for the Divine Laws to the Pharaoh of Egypt --- and to the Israelites."

Also mention in the Book (the story of) Moses: for he was specially chosen, and he was a messenger (and) a prophet.
And we called him from the right side of Mount (Sinai), and made him draw near to Us, for mystic (converse).
And, out of Our Mercy, We gave him his brother Aaron, (also) a prophet.

— Koran, sura 19 (Maryam), ayat 51–53
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Verily, We did send down the Torah to Moses, therein was guidance and light,
by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to God's Will, judged the Jews.
And the rabbis and the priests too judged the Jews by the Torah for to them was
entrusted the protection of God's Book, and they were witnesses thereto.” (Koran 5:44)
​

In point of fact, under the ancient teaching, there is a connection and recognition of the Torah (The written law in the first five books of the Bible), the Christian Bible, and the Koran (a supernatural revelation from the Supreme Being).

Sargon the Great was a ≈ 24th or 23d Century figure, where Moses the Law Giver was a ≈ 13th of 12th Century figure.

Moses story was taken from Sargon. There is no historical evident of the exodus or any slaves in Egypt.

Well sir, I believe it, the Christians and Jews believe it and that's the only thing that counts. Suck it up.

(COMMENT)

I suppose that some people can accept or deny the story of Moses and the Exodus, but that would be against the laws and teachings of the Torah, Bible and Koran.

The Exodus story is described in terms of how God commands Moses to strike the sea with his rod, causing it to split and save the Israelites while drowning the Egyptian army [26:52-68 and 44:17-33]. Pharaoh is urged to repent and seek forgiveness from God. For their lack of gratitude for God’s help, the Israelites are then punished when Moses leaves them in the wilderness for 40 nights. According to 7:142-7, Moses’ 40 days and nights on the mountain comes to an end when finally he receives the Torah, as God’s revelation. The Exodus story demonstrates how God can be present even when he appears to abandon or punish his people.

Some scholars of the Quran argue that the later chapters (suras) – known as the “Madinan suras” – show a shift away from Moses and the Exodus and toward the example of Abraham. This follows another apparent shift in focus in these suras, from the Levant and Jerusalem to the Arabian Peninsula and Mecca. Despite this, the Exodus story and its associated holy places remain important in regional Islamic practice. Jabal Harun (the Mountain of Aaron, brother of Moses), near the Nabataean city of Petra in Jordan, is one example.
SOURCE: EXODUS IN ISLAM

These stories, chiseled in history of many centuries BCE, will always be subject to scrutiny and doubt. Believing in the stories as told in the Torah, Bible and Koran are no more provable, verifiable or corroborated than the existence of the Supreme Being. The reason we use the word "faith" is because, it implies that one has a certain amount of confidence in the doctrinal teachings beyond that of evidence.

It really doesn't matter what either side believes. It is all about crafting a future for a better tomorrow. When the Israelis are tired of the conflict, they will end it. When the Arab Palestinians are tired of being a second rate country that internally manufactures parasitic refugees, the end will come. It will not matter what happened twenty-four centuries ago. You have two choices: • A better tomorrow; or, • a more troubled tomorrow.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Boston1]

Dear Boston1, Thanks for your response. Taking over Judea and Samrea is going to be a military headache but not impossible.

I like the idea you are presenting that the Arab Muslims must chose or go to Jordan however you can't make a blanket determination which results in the forced expulsion of any large number of what has to be assumed to be the civilian population.

When did I say Arabs in Judea and Samarea should go or chose to go to Jordan? I do not promote ethnic cleansing of Jews or Arabs.

Conflict that will be, for the foreseeable future, a thorn in the side of Israel. It has been the subject of many a propaganda media thesis; both in print and presentations in audio-visual forms. The peripheral general consensus is that much of the international community consider that Israel’s residential housing communities, commercial and economic developments built in Golan (Heights) are “illegal” --- "established in breach of international law" (using the words of the International Court of Justice).

Similarly, there are arguments which wrestle with the true scope and nature of the occupation and control of Judea, Samaria, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, AND certain parts of Jerusalem.

The Arab League position, as well as the incoherent and segmented position of the Palestinians, is that nothing Jewish --- or that derived from recommendations of the General Assembly --- that results in the formation of Israeli sovereignty is legal or legitimately proper. And since this is the selective option the international community has chosen to accept, the Jewish State of Israel has no other option than to take such action that is necessary to preserve and defend the Jewish National Home from the elements within the International Community which are intent to adopt such actions that will result in the dissemination of the Jewish National Home.

Dear RoccoR, Thanks for your legal analysis of the situation. Its pretty clear that the world makes up international law with the sole intention of demonizing Israel even if it means hurting the Arabs too. Note that when extended our rule of law to Golan the hole world voted against us, but we did it anyway and it worked! The hole world condemned operation Opera, but we did it anyway and it worked! We should not worry about the world so much. We need to stop thinking about the world and do what we think is best for us.

Note that I am note suggesting that we should annex Judea and Samarea but merely extend the rule of law so that we can get rid of terror and create a better condition for the Arabs until a permanent solution can be found or as Naftali Bennet would put it, an imperfect solution: economic peace.

fair enough, and I agree, regardless of how the Arab Muslims have treated the Judaic people; my suggestion is that Israel vet all on an individual basis. Combatants must, according to the Geneva Conventions be repatriated. Non combatant retain their protected person status and are welcome to stay.

I have a lot of friends in Israel and from what I gather there's plenty of good honest peaceful Arab Muslims who don't want any part of the hostilities. I firmly believe they should not only be allowed to stay, but made to feel welcome to do so by all.

 

[jillian]

After 2 decades of failure of the Oslo process to achieve the so called two states solution its time to realize that its not working and we need to change our plan. I am open to different ideas, Anything but the Oslo process! The Oslo process for two state solution is the politically correct position, but it will not lead to peace. If you really care about peace as I do, its time to realize its a dead end!

IF you tell Israelis Israel goes out of Judea and Samaria (West bank) and there will be peace, everyone in Israel will say yes. But the world is beginning to realize, that is a very BIG IF! and that Palestinians will create a base of terror.

Lets analyze the fabric of time and space in terms of peace and well being of the Arabs and Jews:
-When Israel acquired the territories in 1967, the life of people in those territories improved. forexample their life expectancy rose from 48 years to 74 years.
- When Israel left Gaza the situation of people there got worse and we got war.
- When Israel left Lebanon the situation of people there got worse and we got war.
- When Israel Partially left Judea and Samaria the situation of people there got worse and we got terror.
- Today Israel has full control of the Golan heights. There is almost no terror and have high quality of life.
- Israel is Partially in Judea and Samaria and those people live a worse life under the terrorism of the PLO.
- Israel is absent in Gaza and people there have even a worse life.

The evidence is overwhelming. The problems of the Arabs is not Israel's presence so much as it is Israels absence.

I do not recommend the so called one state solution as it brings too many radical Muslims into Israels voting system. I suggest one of the following approaches:
- Do in Judea and Samaria what Israel is doing in Golan heights. Its working! (my favorite)
- Jordan annexes west bank.
- like US Israel can be multi-state country.

There is no perfect or ideal solution and we need to pragmatically make the best of a bad situation and middle east is a very difficult situation. Idealistic zealots create war.

Also note that we already have 2 states: Jordan and Israel

how do you think the jordanians would feel about that?

i'm pretty sure the pals are jordanian and they don't want them either.

 

[jillian]

Hossfly, Penelope, et al,

The cultural beliefs pertaining to Mûsâ ibn Amram (AKA; Moses), is not so radically different in the basic. "The Koran states that the Supreme Being bestowed the Torah on Moses (a prophet and messenger of the Supreme Being) as an introduction and caution for the Divine Laws to the Pharaoh of Egypt --- and to the Israelites."

Also mention in the Book (the story of) Moses: for he was specially chosen, and he was a messenger (and) a prophet.
And we called him from the right side of Mount (Sinai), and made him draw near to Us, for mystic (converse).
And, out of Our Mercy, We gave him his brother Aaron, (also) a prophet.

— Koran, sura 19 (Maryam), ayat 51–53
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Verily, We did send down the Torah to Moses, therein was guidance and light,
by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to God's Will, judged the Jews.
And the rabbis and the priests too judged the Jews by the Torah for to them was
entrusted the protection of God's Book, and they were witnesses thereto.” (Koran 5:44)
​

In point of fact, under the ancient teaching, there is a connection and recognition of the Torah (The written law in the first five books of the Bible), the Christian Bible, and the Koran (a supernatural revelation from the Supreme Being).

Sargon the Great was a ≈ 24th or 23d Century figure, where Moses the Law Giver was a ≈ 13th of 12th Century figure.

Moses story was taken from Sargon. There is no historical evident of the exodus or any slaves in Egypt.

Well sir, I believe it, the Christians and Jews believe it and that's the only thing that counts. Suck it up.

(COMMENT)

I suppose that some people can accept or deny the story of Moses and the Exodus, but that would be against the laws and teachings of the Torah, Bible and Koran.

The Exodus story is described in terms of how God commands Moses to strike the sea with his rod, causing it to split and save the Israelites while drowning the Egyptian army [26:52-68 and 44:17-33]. Pharaoh is urged to repent and seek forgiveness from God. For their lack of gratitude for God’s help, the Israelites are then punished when Moses leaves them in the wilderness for 40 nights. According to 7:142-7, Moses’ 40 days and nights on the mountain comes to an end when finally he receives the Torah, as God’s revelation. The Exodus story demonstrates how God can be present even when he appears to abandon or punish his people.

Some scholars of the Quran argue that the later chapters (suras) – known as the “Madinan suras” – show a shift away from Moses and the Exodus and toward the example of Abraham. This follows another apparent shift in focus in these suras, from the Levant and Jerusalem to the Arabian Peninsula and Mecca. Despite this, the Exodus story and its associated holy places remain important in regional Islamic practice. Jabal Harun (the Mountain of Aaron, brother of Moses), near the Nabataean city of Petra in Jordan, is one example.
SOURCE: EXODUS IN ISLAM

These stories, chiseled in history of many centuries BCE, will always be subject to scrutiny and doubt. Believing in the stories as told in the Torah, Bible and Koran are no more provable, verifiable or corroborated than the existence of the Supreme Being. The reason we use the word "faith" is because, it implies that one has a certain amount of confidence in the doctrinal teachings beyond that of evidence.

It really doesn't matter what either side believes. It is all about crafting a future for a better tomorrow. When the Israelis are tired of the conflict, they will end it. When the Arab Palestinians are tired of being a second rate country that internally manufactures parasitic refugees, the end will come. It will not matter what happened twenty-four centuries ago. You have two choices: • A better tomorrow; or, • a more troubled tomorrow.

Most Respectfully,
R

if you want a discussion on this issue, rocco, you might want to start by not giving an arabic name to a jew.

 

[Boston1]

After 2 decades of failure of the Oslo process to achieve the so called two states solution its time to realize that its not working and we need to change our plan. I am open to different ideas, Anything but the Oslo process! The Oslo process for two state solution is the politically correct position, but it will not lead to peace. If you really care about peace as I do, its time to realize its a dead end!

IF you tell Israelis Israel goes out of Judea and Samaria (West bank) and there will be peace, everyone in Israel will say yes. But the world is beginning to realize, that is a very BIG IF! and that Palestinians will create a base of terror.

Lets analyze the fabric of time and space in terms of peace and well being of the Arabs and Jews:
-When Israel acquired the territories in 1967, the life of people in those territories improved. forexample their life expectancy rose from 48 years to 74 years.
- When Israel left Gaza the situation of people there got worse and we got war.
- When Israel left Lebanon the situation of people there got worse and we got war.
- When Israel Partially left Judea and Samaria the situation of people there got worse and we got terror.
- Today Israel has full control of the Golan heights. There is almost no terror and have high quality of life.
- Israel is Partially in Judea and Samaria and those people live a worse life under the terrorism of the PLO.
- Israel is absent in Gaza and people there have even a worse life.

The evidence is overwhelming. The problems of the Arabs is not Israel's presence so much as it is Israels absence.

I do not recommend the so called one state solution as it brings too many radical Muslims into Israels voting system. I suggest one of the following approaches:
- Do in Judea and Samaria what Israel is doing in Golan heights. Its working! (my favorite)
- Jordan annexes west bank.
- like US Israel can be multi-state country.

There is no perfect or ideal solution and we need to pragmatically make the best of a bad situation and middle east is a very difficult situation. Idealistic zealots create war.

Also note that we already have 2 states: Jordan and Israel

how do you think the jordanians would feel about that?

i'm pretty sure the pals are jordanian and they don't want them either.

Jordan and Israel have a peace treaty so I don't think Israel should push it to much. I do believe the international community has a strong case against Jordan, in that all Arab Muslims in Israel according to the citizenship law of 1954 were Jordanian and then Jordan illegally stripped them of that citizenship for political purposed thus illegally creating stateless persons.

 

[Phoenall]

Hossfly, Penelope, et al,

The cultural beliefs pertaining to Mûsâ ibn Amram (AKA; Moses), is not so radically different in the basic. "The Koran states that the Supreme Being bestowed the Torah on Moses (a prophet and messenger of the Supreme Being) as an introduction and caution for the Divine Laws to the Pharaoh of Egypt --- and to the Israelites."

Also mention in the Book (the story of) Moses: for he was specially chosen, and he was a messenger (and) a prophet.
And we called him from the right side of Mount (Sinai), and made him draw near to Us, for mystic (converse).
And, out of Our Mercy, We gave him his brother Aaron, (also) a prophet.

— Koran, sura 19 (Maryam), ayat 51–53
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Verily, We did send down the Torah to Moses, therein was guidance and light,
by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to God's Will, judged the Jews.
And the rabbis and the priests too judged the Jews by the Torah for to them was
entrusted the protection of God's Book, and they were witnesses thereto.” (Koran 5:44)
​

In point of fact, under the ancient teaching, there is a connection and recognition of the Torah (The written law in the first five books of the Bible), the Christian Bible, and the Koran (a supernatural revelation from the Supreme Being).

Sargon the Great was a ≈ 24th or 23d Century figure, where Moses the Law Giver was a ≈ 13th of 12th Century figure.

Moses story was taken from Sargon. There is no historical evident of the exodus or any slaves in Egypt.

Well sir, I believe it, the Christians and Jews believe it and that's the only thing that counts. Suck it up.

(COMMENT)

I suppose that some people can accept or deny the story of Moses and the Exodus, but that would be against the laws and teachings of the Torah, Bible and Koran.

The Exodus story is described in terms of how God commands Moses to strike the sea with his rod, causing it to split and save the Israelites while drowning the Egyptian army [26:52-68 and 44:17-33]. Pharaoh is urged to repent and seek forgiveness from God. For their lack of gratitude for God’s help, the Israelites are then punished when Moses leaves them in the wilderness for 40 nights. According to 7:142-7, Moses’ 40 days and nights on the mountain comes to an end when finally he receives the Torah, as God’s revelation. The Exodus story demonstrates how God can be present even when he appears to abandon or punish his people.

Some scholars of the Quran argue that the later chapters (suras) – known as the “Madinan suras” – show a shift away from Moses and the Exodus and toward the example of Abraham. This follows another apparent shift in focus in these suras, from the Levant and Jerusalem to the Arabian Peninsula and Mecca. Despite this, the Exodus story and its associated holy places remain important in regional Islamic practice. Jabal Harun (the Mountain of Aaron, brother of Moses), near the Nabataean city of Petra in Jordan, is one example.
SOURCE: EXODUS IN ISLAM

These stories, chiseled in history of many centuries BCE, will always be subject to scrutiny and doubt. Believing in the stories as told in the Torah, Bible and Koran are no more provable, verifiable or corroborated than the existence of the Supreme Being. The reason we use the word "faith" is because, it implies that one has a certain amount of confidence in the doctrinal teachings beyond that of evidence.

It really doesn't matter what either side believes. It is all about crafting a future for a better tomorrow. When the Israelis are tired of the conflict, they will end it. When the Arab Palestinians are tired of being a second rate country that internally manufactures parasitic refugees, the end will come. It will not matter what happened twenty-four centuries ago. You have two choices: • A better tomorrow; or, • a more troubled tomorrow.

Most Respectfully,
R

if you want a discussion on this issue, rocco, you might want to start by not giving an arabic name to a jew.

It does not bother me as it just proves that the arab's had no history of their own so had to steal one from the Jews. Much as the Christians did in 4C.E. as they had no history of their own either. The Torah and story of Moses goes back 2000 years plus before the invention of either islam or Christianity