Trump wants $230,000,000.00 from the US taxpayer.

[Marener]

I haven't found a single thing that says they can handle documents in an "open manner" while at their residence. Everything ive found says that even at their residence, the procedures are complex and still have to be followed.

It's not a secret. Read the Hur report and they discuss it at length.

Yes, but the ones as a senator he would have had to have taken. As a VP, he is also bound by the rules. Saying they could have accidently gotten packed up means those rules were not followed.

Accidents happen. Acciendtally violating the rules can result in administrative discipline, but it doesn't result in in charges.

The double standard is both took classified materials willingly. Only one was charged.

That's because Hur was unable to find evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Biden did so willingly.

Its not secure if his groundskeeper, cleaning staff, hunter biden, and any of his friends he had visit, could have access to them. They were sitting in boxes in a garage.

It was when he was VP.

Yeah, they thought they couldn't convict him becasue he was an elderly man who "forgot".

And? That's obviously true.

Yes, and I agree, but the left is jumping through every hoop to absolve biden.

The difference is, trump believed he had the right because he was president with broad declassificarion authority, Biden had no authority at all.

Robert Hur is not the left and he didn't jump through hoops. He did a thorough investigation and wrote an extensive report clearly explaining his decision.

Trump's idiotic belief doesn't change anything.

The "i forgot" defense doesnt work anywhere else. If I go shopping and put a bunch of stuff in my cart but only pay for half of them, if I get caught, I cant use the "i forgot" defense. If be arrested for shoplifting.

Of course it does. It works in tons of situations. At a self-check out, people forget to scan items all the time. They're not prosecuted for it unless it's clear they're doing so intentionally.

We don't prosecute accidents.

 

[postman]

Biden had top secret materials at his house.

You mean his "diary"?

 

[postman]

I haven't found a single thing that says they can handle documents in an "open manner" while at their residence. Everything ive found says that even at their residence, the procedures are complex and still have to be followed.

You mean like having the residence guarded by the secret service 24/7, providing security.

 

[postman]

I haven't found a single thing that says they can handle documents in an "open manner" while at their residence. Everything ive found says that even at their residence, the procedures are complex and still have to be followed.

Does this include the presidential "residence" in the white house. Where Trump stored hundreds of TS SCI documents in cardboard "bankers boxes".

 

[postman]

I haven't found a single thing that says they can handle documents in an "open manner" while at their residence. Everything ive found says that even at their residence, the procedures are complex and still have to be followed.

Reports related to Donald Trump's handling of classified documents indicate that he collected and stored classified materials, including "Top Secret" documents, in the White House residence

 

[ThisIsMe]

It's not a secret. Read the Hur report and they discuss it at length.

Im not going to read a 300 page report looking for it. If you have a quote or something, feel free to share.

I will say this document seems to disagree with you:

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.ecfr.gov

I mean there are a lot of procedures that even a VP has to go through to have classified materials just in his office. Do you think there would be any less security requirement at his home?

Unattended documents. Classified material will be under the direct supervision of a person with an appropriate security clearance and a verified need-to-know at all times when in use. Special care will be taken to insure that classified material is not left unsecured or unattended in an office.

Accidents happen. Acciendtally violating the rules can result in administrative discipline, but it doesn't result in in charges.

It could result in charges. Mishandling classified materials for 30 years could be considered a pattern of violations. I just dont believe that nobody knew they were there. Trump was out of office for just a few weeks and NARA was beating down his door to get classified documents back, but biden kept documents for 30 years and nobody ever noticed? Come on..

That's because Hur was unable to find evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Biden did so willingly.

No, he said a jury would have a hard time determining guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, for reasons stated. Also, since when do we have investigators decide that people who broke the law shouldn't be charged because THEY feel they might not get a conviction. I think thats up to the system to decide.

It was when he was VP.

Those conditions would never be considered "secure".

And? That's obviously true.

So it wasnt a case of he wasnt guilty, it was a case of we think the jury would just feel sorry for him, so why bother even trying. Thats what it boils down to.

Robert Hur is not the left and he didn't jump through hoops. He did a thorough investigation and wrote an extensive report clearly explaining his decision.

I never said Hur was on the left, I said democrats are jumping through hoops to try and find ways to excuse biden.

Trump's idiotic belief doesn't change anything.

I agree.

Of course it does. It works in tons of situations. At a self-check out, people forget to scan items all the time. They're not prosecuted for it unless it's clear they're doing so intentionally.

We don't prosecute accidents.

Ok. There are rules, even for the VP regarding the storage and handling of classified materials. A lot of working pieces there. Anyone who may have access to those documents needs to have the proper security clearances. This precludes just leaving them laying around where cleaning crew or staffers might see them. Anyone who packed his personal things and had access to those top secret materials shows that the rules for proper handling and safeguarding those materials were not followed. If biden just left them laying around then he wasn't following those rules, and that is willful.

 

[Marener]

Im not going to read a 300 page report looking for it. If you have a quote or something, feel free to share.

I will say this document seems to disagree with you:

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.ecfr.gov

I mean there are a lot of procedures that even a VP has to go through to have classified materials just in his office. Do you think there would be any less security requirement at his home?

The vice president’s residence is a secure location, meaning if classified documents are left in the open, then they’re still secure.

It could result in charges. Mishandling classified materials for 30 years could be considered a pattern of violations. I just dont believe that nobody knew they were there. Trump was out of office for just a few weeks and NARA was beating down his door to get classified documents back, but biden kept documents for 30 years and nobody ever noticed? Come on..

Classified documents go missing sometimes. NARA has recorded dozens of instances very similar to the documents found from Biden’s Senate career. Like I said, they are bios from a trip to the Soviet Union. Not exactly top secret info.

No, he said a jury would have a hard time determining guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, for reasons stated. Also, since when do we have investigators decide that people who broke the law shouldn't be charged because THEY feel they might not get a conviction. I think thats up to the system to decide.

Prosecutors always decide whether the charges could result in a conviction. In fact, the DoJ policy requires them to do so. Prosecutors are part of the system.

9-27.000 - Principles of Federal Prosecution

www.justice.gov

9-27.220 - Grounds for Commencing or Declining Prosecution​

The attorney for the government should commence or recommend federal prosecution if he/she believes that the person's conduct constitutes a federal offense, and that the admissible evidence will probably be sufficient to obtain and sustain a conviction, unless (1) the prosecution would serve no substantial federal interest; (2) the person is subject to effective prosecution in another jurisdiction; or (3) there exists an adequate non-criminal alternative to prosecution.

Those conditions would never be considered "secure".

Secret service does indeed secure the vice president when they’re at home.

So it wasnt a case of he wasnt guilty, it was a case of we think the jury would just feel sorry for him, so why bother even trying. Thats what it boils down to.

“Feeling sorry” has nothing to do with it. You’re making things up.

I never said Hur was on the left, I said democrats are jumping through hoops to try and find ways to excuse biden.

Hur is the one that decided it didn’t warrant prosecution. I don’t have to jump through hoops. I just have to show you the conciliations of an unbiased prosecutor.

I agree.

Then why are you bringing it up? It’s pointless.

Ok. There are rules, even for the VP regarding the storage and handling of classified materials. A lot of working pieces there. Anyone who may have access to those documents needs to have the proper security clearances. This precludes just leaving them laying around where cleaning crew or staffers might see them. Anyone who packed his personal things and had access to those top secret materials shows that the rules for proper handling and safeguarding those materials were not followed. If biden just left them laying around then he wasn't following those rules, and that is willful.

Again, you keep talking about “rules”, but that’s not the same as the law.

The law has specific requirements that need to be met in order to be prosecuted and the vice president isn’t violating the law by handling classified documents in their office or home while they’re in office. This is really a silly thing to say.

 

[ThisIsMe]

The vice president’s residence is a secure location, meaning if classified documents are left in the open, then they’re still secure.

If anyone has access to the areas where classified materials are present and they dont have security clearance, that is not secure. Im sure his cleaning staff do not have top secret clearances.

Classified documents go missing sometimes. NARA has recorded dozens of instances very similar to the documents found from Biden’s Senate career. Like I said, they are bios from a trip to the Soviet Union. Not exactly top secret info.

Biden was found to be in possession of top secret materials. You keep downplaying it to "bios".

Prosecutors always decide whether the charges could result in a conviction. In fact, the DoJ policy requires them to do so. Prosecutors are part of the system.

9-27.000 - Principles of Federal Prosecution

www.justice.gov

9-27.220 - Grounds for Commencing or Declining Prosecution​

The attorney for the government should commence or recommend federal prosecution if he/she believes that the person's conduct constitutes a federal offense, and that the admissible evidence will probably be sufficient to obtain and sustain a conviction, unless (1) the prosecution would serve no substantial federal interest; (2) the person is subject to effective prosecution in another jurisdiction; or (3) there exists an adequate non-criminal alternative to prosecution.

so, then if we get a prosecutor who says they found evidence of a crime, but they think a jury would be sympathetic and not convict, we just toss the case?

Secret service does indeed secure the vice president when they’re at home.

Still, documents are not considered secure if they are just laying around. Even having secret service there, there are still rules for storage and handling classified materials.

“Feeling sorry” has nothing to do with it. You’re making things up.

Thats what Hur said in his report. In so many words.

Hur is the one that decided it didn’t warrant prosecution. I don’t have to jump through hoops. I just have to show you the conciliations of an unbiased prosecutor.

He only said that because he didnt think a jury would convict an elderly man with a poor memory.

Again, you keep talking about “rules”, but that’s not the same as the law.

Violating the rules for handling classified materials means you are in violation of the laws regarding the same. We call them the espionage act, and trump was charged with 31 violations simply for possessing the materials.

The law has specific requirements that need to be met in order to be prosecuted and the vice president isn’t violating the law by handling classified documents in their office or home while they’re in office. This is really a silly thing to say.

He violated the law In not securing them in his property, where unauthorized people might have access to them. He violated the laws about not making sure the documents were not returned to their place of custody. He violated the laws about having classified materials at the Penn-Biden center which is not a secure storage place for classified materials.

 

[Marener]

If anyone has access to the areas where classified materials are present and they dont have security clearance, that is not secure. Im sure his cleaning staff do not have top secret clearances.

Okay, sure. What does that have to do with anything?

Biden was found to be in possession of top secret materials. You keep downplaying it to "bios".

The documents from 30 years ago were bios from his travel packets. The rest were from his service as vice president when he had open access to large quantities of classified information. You keep conflating timeframes and types of documents.

so, then if we get a prosecutor who says they found evidence of a crime, but they think a jury would be sympathetic and not convict, we just toss the case?

"Evidence of a crime" is not and never has been sufficient to justify prosecution. Evidence has to be able to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Believability of witnesses, believability of defendants, and the possibility of mounting a defense to cast reasonable doubt are all components.

We can't and shouldn't prosecute people just because they found "evidence" that doesn't reach the bar of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Not only would that waste a ton of time, it would subject a ton of innocent people to needless prosecution.

Still, documents are not considered secure if they are just laying around. Even having secret service there, there are still rules for storage and handling classified materials.

Please file your concerns with management.

Thats what Hur said in his report. In so many words.

I thought you didn't read the report? Something about it being too long because it's like 300 pages or something.

He only said that because he didnt think a jury would convict an elderly man with a poor memory.

They wouldn't convict because they had reasonable doubt as to his guilt.

Violating the rules for handling classified materials means you are in violation of the laws regarding the same. We call them the espionage act, and trump was charged with 31 violations simply for possessing the materials.

No, that's not true. The law sets a higher bar. Remember, you can't be prosecuted "simply for possessing" the materials. Trump was prosecuted because he deliberately took the materials and deliberately kept the materials when he had no reason to possess them.

He violated the law In not securing them in his property, where unauthorized people might have access to them. He violated the laws about not making sure the documents were not returned to their place of custody. He violated the laws about having classified materials at the Penn-Biden center which is not a secure storage place for classified materials.

Again, you can't prosecute people for accidents. It has to be willful. How many times do you need me to say it before you remember that's essential to being able to prosecute?

 

[dudmuck]

Trump knows any lawsuit to settle the issue, takes three years to make it through the USSC.

It's like the emoluments lawsuit. Or the classified documents case. With all the lawfare Trump's lawyers can throw at the case, it will be like demolishing the East Wing.

Too late, already done.