Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground

[Indeependent]

You would be punishing civilian settlers for the acts of their government and expelling 400,000 established people. How viable is that?

What "open season" on Palestinians?

I would not be punishing settlers, I would stop their ongoing crime.

Some settlers are thought to lash out at Palestinians because they are "easy victims."[210] The United Nations accused Israel of failing to intervene and arrest settlers suspected of violence.[211] In 2008, Haaretz wrote that "Israeli society has become accustomed to seeing lawbreaking settlers receive special treatment and no other group could similarly attack Israeli law enforcement agencies without being severely punished."[212]

In September 2011, settlers vandalized a mosque and an army base. They slashed tires and cut cables of 12 army vehicles and sprayed graffiti.[213] In November 2011, the United Nations Office for Coordination of Human Affairs (OCHA) in the Palestinian territories published a report on settler violence that showed a significant rise compared to 2009 and 2010. The report covered physical violence and property damage such as uprooted olive trees, damaged tractors and slaughtered sheep. The report states that 90% of complaints filed by Palestinians have been closed without charge.[214]

According to EU reports, Israel has created an "atmosphere of impunity" for Jewish attackers, which is seen as tantamount to tacit approval by the state. In the West Bank, Jews and Palestinians live under two different legal regimes and it is difficult for Palestinians to lodge complaints, which must be filed in Hebrew in Israeli settlements.[215]​

Anything more recent?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You would be punishing civilian settlers for the acts of their government and expelling 400,000 established people. How viable is that?

What "open season" on Palestinians?

I would not be punishing settlers, I would stop their ongoing crime.

Some settlers are thought to lash out at Palestinians because they are "easy victims."[210] The United Nations accused Israel of failing to intervene and arrest settlers suspected of violence.[211] In 2008, Haaretz wrote that "Israeli society has become accustomed to seeing lawbreaking settlers receive special treatment and no other group could similarly attack Israeli law enforcement agencies without being severely punished."[212]

In September 2011, settlers vandalized a mosque and an army base. They slashed tires and cut cables of 12 army vehicles and sprayed graffiti.[213] In November 2011, the United Nations Office for Coordination of Human Affairs (OCHA) in the Palestinian territories published a report on settler violence that showed a significant rise compared to 2009 and 2010. The report covered physical violence and property damage such as uprooted olive trees, damaged tractors and slaughtered sheep. The report states that 90% of complaints filed by Palestinians have been closed without charge.[214]

According to EU reports, Israel has created an "atmosphere of impunity" for Jewish attackers, which is seen as tantamount to tacit approval by the state. In the West Bank, Jews and Palestinians live under two different legal regimes and it is difficult for Palestinians to lodge complaints, which must be filed in Hebrew in Israeli settlements.[215]​

In September 2011, settlers vandalized a mosque and an army base. They slashed tires and cut cables of 12 army vehicles and sprayed graffiti.

That's awful!!!

How many unguided rockets did they launch at Palestinian civilians?
How many suicide vests did they detonate?
How many Muslim restaurants did they bomb?

 

[flacaltenn]

Attacks are unprovoked violence. Palestinians defense is not unprovoked.

What kind of "defense" is lobbing rockets into civilian areas?

Israel attacks civilian areas all the time.

Why the double standard?

You didn't answer her question. Deflection. What kind of "defense" is lobbing rockets into civilian areas?

And don't say its harmless. I was just in Israel this past November, while you have never visited your beloved Palestine in your entire life. I saw my relatives go into bomb shelters. I saw the disruption of their lives, with work and school being cancelled. I saw their dog having anxiety attacks.

The Palestinians experience acts of war constantly.

Are they not allowed to respond?

It's really really difficult to disentangle what started when and where and by who in a conflict that is essentially over 80 years old. In fact..not sure it's worth it.

It does seem to me that most of Israel's military responses seem to be aimed at Gaza sites that rockets are fired from. That's one thing.

Then, there are a whole lot of other factors including the way stone throwers are treated, whether or not protestors were shot in just cause or not, which would have to be looked at on a case by case basis.

You can't broad brush it all.

But we still get back to an essential function of a state: the right to protect its civilian population from threats.

What the Palestinian civilian population goes through is devastating. What the Israeli civilian population goes through is devastating.

I hope we can acknowledge that - rather than claiming it's just a few rockets here and there.

So what can we do to rectify it? And, maybe, more to the point - in what way is HAMAS acting to PROTECT it's civilian population? In what way is HAMAS acting to put it's civilian population in danger?

Most of us want the Palestinians out of limbo and occupation. But most of us realize that the "pastoral pleasure" of open land and open borders in that region can not be restored.. The population TODAY on either side is astronomically LARGER than it was in the 1948...

The real key to peace is security and prosperity. Any design of a peace plan has to begin there.. Not trying to "restore Palestine" to conditions that existed 100 years ago or more.. Something along the lines of "reparations" would be intl efforts to assist in building that future if the Palis find the leadership to negotiate it..

 

[Coyote]

What kind of "defense" is lobbing rockets into civilian areas?

Israel attacks civilian areas all the time.

Why the double standard?

You didn't answer her question. Deflection. What kind of "defense" is lobbing rockets into civilian areas?

And don't say its harmless. I was just in Israel this past November, while you have never visited your beloved Palestine in your entire life. I saw my relatives go into bomb shelters. I saw the disruption of their lives, with work and school being cancelled. I saw their dog having anxiety attacks.

The Palestinians experience acts of war constantly.

Are they not allowed to respond?

It's really really difficult to disentangle what started when and where and by who in a conflict that is essentially over 80 years old. In fact..not sure it's worth it.

It does seem to me that most of Israel's military responses seem to be aimed at Gaza sites that rockets are fired from. That's one thing.

Then, there are a whole lot of other factors including the way stone throwers are treated, whether or not protestors were shot in just cause or not, which would have to be looked at on a case by case basis.

You can't broad brush it all.

But we still get back to an essential function of a state: the right to protect its civilian population from threats.

What the Palestinian civilian population goes through is devastating. What the Israeli civilian population goes through is devastating.

I hope we can acknowledge that - rather than claiming it's just a few rockets here and there.

So what can we do to rectify it? And, maybe, more to the point - in what way is HAMAS acting to PROTECT it's civilian population? In what way is HAMAS acting to put it's civilian population in danger?

Most of us want the Palestinians out of limbo and occupation. But most of us realize that the "pastoral pleasure" of open land and open borders in that region can not be restored.. The population TODAY on either side is astronomically LARGER than it was in the 1948...

The real key to peace is security and prosperity. Any design of a peace plan has to begin there.. Not trying to "restore Palestine" to conditions that existed 100 years ago or more.. Something along the lines of "reparations" would be intl efforts to assist in building that future if the Palis find the leadership to negotiate it..

Agree, and that is why we can't keep going back to 80 years ago - it isn't going to accomplish anything.

 

[Coyote]

You would be punishing civilian settlers for the acts of their government and expelling 400,000 established people. How viable is that?

What "open season" on Palestinians?

I would not be punishing settlers, I would stop their ongoing crime.

Some settlers are thought to lash out at Palestinians because they are "easy victims."[210] The United Nations accused Israel of failing to intervene and arrest settlers suspected of violence.[211] In 2008, Haaretz wrote that "Israeli society has become accustomed to seeing lawbreaking settlers receive special treatment and no other group could similarly attack Israeli law enforcement agencies without being severely punished."[212]

In September 2011, settlers vandalized a mosque and an army base. They slashed tires and cut cables of 12 army vehicles and sprayed graffiti.[213] In November 2011, the United Nations Office for Coordination of Human Affairs (OCHA) in the Palestinian territories published a report on settler violence that showed a significant rise compared to 2009 and 2010. The report covered physical violence and property damage such as uprooted olive trees, damaged tractors and slaughtered sheep. The report states that 90% of complaints filed by Palestinians have been closed without charge.[214]

According to EU reports, Israel has created an "atmosphere of impunity" for Jewish attackers, which is seen as tantamount to tacit approval by the state. In the West Bank, Jews and Palestinians live under two different legal regimes and it is difficult for Palestinians to lodge complaints, which must be filed in Hebrew in Israeli settlements.[215]​

I would agree that there is extremist violence coming from the settlers and it has led to horrific murders as well. They've even thrown stones at the IDF, and I think once at a US diplomatic contingent visiting the area. And I agree, enforcement and policing is still very lopsided against the Palestinians (for example it's crazy that children need soldiers with them just to safely get to school).

In defense - the IDF has finally started taking them very seriously, particularly after the teenaged boy was kidnapped and burned alive. They are viewing these extremists as terrorists and have been taking stronger measures (finally).

And, one of my complaints has always been that the Palestinians are under military law while Israelis in that area, get the benefit of civilian law (which grants many more rights and protections to minors). That is another reason IMO - that the status quo can't be maintained as it is.

So something needs to be done. Like some of the ideas in this plan.

 

[Shusha]

Interesting article in the Globe and Mail yesterday (?) suggested that the Palestinians have been pretty clear about what they don’t want.

Time for them to put together a peace plan of their. Let’s find out what the DO want.

 

[deanrd]

The plan actually belongs to Jared Kushner. He read 25 books.

Jared Kushner says he's read 25 books about the Israel-Palestine conflict

 

[ForeverYoung436]

The plan actually belongs to Jared Kushner. He read 25 books.

Jared Kushner says he's read 25 books about the Israel-Palestine conflict

He hasn't done any worse than past negotiaters.

 

[Mindful]

Interesting article in the Globe and Mail yesterday (?) suggested that the Palestinians have been pretty clear about what they don’t want.

Time for them to put together a peace plan of their. Let’s find out what the DO want.

We need to find out what they DO want?

It's rather obvious.

 

[Olde Europe]

I would agree that there is extremist violence coming from the settlers and it has led to horrific murders as well. They've even thrown stones at the IDF, and I think once at a US diplomatic contingent visiting the area. And I agree, enforcement and policing is still very lopsided against the Palestinians (for example it's crazy that children need soldiers with them just to safely get to school).

In defense - the IDF has finally started taking them very seriously, particularly after the teenaged boy was kidnapped and burned alive. They are viewing these extremists as terrorists and have been taking stronger measures (finally).

And, one of my complaints has always been that the Palestinians are under military law while Israelis in that area, get the benefit of civilian law (which grants many more rights and protections to minors). That is another reason IMO - that the status quo can't be maintained as it is.

So something needs to be done. Like some of the ideas in this plan.

Nothing changed. Of course, they are taking it "very seriously", which is why they opted to make filming the IDF's criminality and support of settler criminality a crime, punishable by up to ten years in prison.

The plan would visit further indignities on Palestinians. It would not - not - improve anything for Palestinians. It is hard, I know, but the plan is a "good job" done on Palestinians under the threadbare veil of lofty promises that will never materialize. I find, it's time for that reality to sink in.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Attacks are unprovoked violence. Palestinians defense is not unprovoked.

What kind of "defense" is lobbing rockets into civilian areas?

Israel attacks civilian areas all the time.

Why the double standard?

You didn't answer her question. Deflection. What kind of "defense" is lobbing rockets into civilian areas?

And don't say its harmless. I was just in Israel this past November, while you have never visited your beloved Palestine in your entire life. I saw my relatives go into bomb shelters. I saw the disruption of their lives, with work and school being cancelled. I saw their dog having anxiety attacks.

The Palestinians experience acts of war constantly.

Are they not allowed to respond?

It's really really difficult to disentangle what started when and where and by who in a conflict that is essentially over 80 years old. In fact..not sure it's worth it.

It does seem to me that most of Israel's military responses seem to be aimed at Gaza sites that rockets are fired from. That's one thing.

Then, there are a whole lot of other factors including the way stone throwers are treated, whether or not protestors were shot in just cause or not, which would have to be looked at on a case by case basis.

You can't broad brush it all.

But we still get back to an essential function of a state: the right to protect its civilian population from threats.

What the Palestinian civilian population goes through is devastating. What the Israeli civilian population goes through is devastating.

I hope we can acknowledge that - rather than claiming it's just a few rockets here and there.

So what can we do to rectify it? And, maybe, more to the point - in what way is HAMAS acting to PROTECT it's civilian population? In what way is HAMAS acting to put it's civilian population in danger?

It's really really difficult to disentangle what started when and where and by who in a conflict that is essentially over 80 years old. In fact..not sure it's worth it.

The truth is always important. You can't just blow off the past like it is meaningless. Present conflicts cannot be addressed outside of history.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

What kind of "defense" is lobbing rockets into civilian areas?

Israel attacks civilian areas all the time.

Why the double standard?

You didn't answer her question. Deflection. What kind of "defense" is lobbing rockets into civilian areas?

And don't say its harmless. I was just in Israel this past November, while you have never visited your beloved Palestine in your entire life. I saw my relatives go into bomb shelters. I saw the disruption of their lives, with work and school being cancelled. I saw their dog having anxiety attacks.

The Palestinians experience acts of war constantly.

Are they not allowed to respond?

It's really really difficult to disentangle what started when and where and by who in a conflict that is essentially over 80 years old. In fact..not sure it's worth it.

It does seem to me that most of Israel's military responses seem to be aimed at Gaza sites that rockets are fired from. That's one thing.

Then, there are a whole lot of other factors including the way stone throwers are treated, whether or not protestors were shot in just cause or not, which would have to be looked at on a case by case basis.

You can't broad brush it all.

But we still get back to an essential function of a state: the right to protect its civilian population from threats.

What the Palestinian civilian population goes through is devastating. What the Israeli civilian population goes through is devastating.

I hope we can acknowledge that - rather than claiming it's just a few rockets here and there.

So what can we do to rectify it? And, maybe, more to the point - in what way is HAMAS acting to PROTECT it's civilian population? In what way is HAMAS acting to put it's civilian population in danger?

It's really really difficult to disentangle what started when and where and by who in a conflict that is essentially over 80 years old. In fact..not sure it's worth it.

The truth is always important. You can't just blow off the past like it is meaningless. Present conflicts cannot be addressed outside of history.

But you ONLY talk about the past, and not about finding solutions.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What kind of "defense" is lobbing rockets into civilian areas?

Israel attacks civilian areas all the time.

Why the double standard?

You didn't answer her question. Deflection. What kind of "defense" is lobbing rockets into civilian areas?

And don't say its harmless. I was just in Israel this past November, while you have never visited your beloved Palestine in your entire life. I saw my relatives go into bomb shelters. I saw the disruption of their lives, with work and school being cancelled. I saw their dog having anxiety attacks.

The Palestinians experience acts of war constantly.

Are they not allowed to respond?

It's really really difficult to disentangle what started when and where and by who in a conflict that is essentially over 80 years old. In fact..not sure it's worth it.

It does seem to me that most of Israel's military responses seem to be aimed at Gaza sites that rockets are fired from. That's one thing.

Then, there are a whole lot of other factors including the way stone throwers are treated, whether or not protestors were shot in just cause or not, which would have to be looked at on a case by case basis.

You can't broad brush it all.

But we still get back to an essential function of a state: the right to protect its civilian population from threats.

What the Palestinian civilian population goes through is devastating. What the Israeli civilian population goes through is devastating.

I hope we can acknowledge that - rather than claiming it's just a few rockets here and there.

So what can we do to rectify it? And, maybe, more to the point - in what way is HAMAS acting to PROTECT it's civilian population? In what way is HAMAS acting to put it's civilian population in danger?

It's really really difficult to disentangle what started when and where and by who in a conflict that is essentially over 80 years old. In fact..not sure it's worth it.

The truth is always important. You can't just blow off the past like it is meaningless. Present conflicts cannot be addressed outside of history.

Are any Israelis protected persons under the Geneva Conventions?

 

[Coyote]

I would agree that there is extremist violence coming from the settlers and it has led to horrific murders as well. They've even thrown stones at the IDF, and I think once at a US diplomatic contingent visiting the area. And I agree, enforcement and policing is still very lopsided against the Palestinians (for example it's crazy that children need soldiers with them just to safely get to school).

In defense - the IDF has finally started taking them very seriously, particularly after the teenaged boy was kidnapped and burned alive. They are viewing these extremists as terrorists and have been taking stronger measures (finally).

And, one of my complaints has always been that the Palestinians are under military law while Israelis in that area, get the benefit of civilian law (which grants many more rights and protections to minors). That is another reason IMO - that the status quo can't be maintained as it is.

So something needs to be done. Like some of the ideas in this plan.

Nothing changed. Of course, they are taking it "very seriously", which is why they opted to make filming the IDF's criminality and support of settler criminality a crime, punishable by up to ten years in prison.

The plan would visit further indignities on Palestinians. It would not - not - improve anything for Palestinians. It is hard, I know, but the plan is a "good job" done on Palestinians under the threadbare veil of lofty promises that will never materialize. I find, it's time for that reality to sink in.

Well that is interesting...I had not of that bill before, it sounds extreme and frankly wrong. I will need to look it up.

 

[rylah]

What kind of "defense" is lobbing rockets into civilian areas?

Israel attacks civilian areas all the time.

Why the double standard?

You didn't answer her question. Deflection. What kind of "defense" is lobbing rockets into civilian areas?

And don't say its harmless. I was just in Israel this past November, while you have never visited your beloved Palestine in your entire life. I saw my relatives go into bomb shelters. I saw the disruption of their lives, with work and school being cancelled. I saw their dog having anxiety attacks.

The Palestinians experience acts of war constantly.

Are they not allowed to respond?

It's really really difficult to disentangle what started when and where and by who in a conflict that is essentially over 80 years old. In fact..not sure it's worth it.

It does seem to me that most of Israel's military responses seem to be aimed at Gaza sites that rockets are fired from. That's one thing.

Then, there are a whole lot of other factors including the way stone throwers are treated, whether or not protestors were shot in just cause or not, which would have to be looked at on a case by case basis.

You can't broad brush it all.

But we still get back to an essential function of a state: the right to protect its civilian population from threats.

What the Palestinian civilian population goes through is devastating. What the Israeli civilian population goes through is devastating.

I hope we can acknowledge that - rather than claiming it's just a few rockets here and there.

So what can we do to rectify it? And, maybe, more to the point - in what way is HAMAS acting to PROTECT it's civilian population? In what way is HAMAS acting to put it's civilian population in danger?

It's really really difficult to disentangle what started when and where and by who in a conflict that is essentially over 80 years old. In fact..not sure it's worth it.

The truth is always important. You can't just blow off the past like it is meaningless. Present conflicts cannot be addressed outside of history.

Indeed truth is important,
yet in all that you call "history", always suspiciously starts with the Balfour declaration in 1917,
and not even with the 1st official Zionist immigration 3 decades prior to that.

They call it "resistance", a fancy word for savage massacring Jews, as if they were forced into a reaction by Zionism and the Balfour declaration, but no one dares respond coherently about the Arab pogroms spreading throughout the Caliphate just prior to that.

If truth is always important, there wasn't the need to avoid so much of the story.

Q. What are they hiding about that "resistance"?

 

[rylah]

When a land that belongs to multiple peoples who view the land as belonging to only one of them - it creates problems for the other peoples who feel it is their land as well.

Does the land belong to the native population or to foreign settlers?

Most "Palestinians" came from Arab countries as recent settlers after the Zionists created more employment opportunities. They are not "native" to the land or descended from the now-defunct Canaanites. On the other hand, Israelis speak the same language that was spoken 2,000 years ago, as well as use the same currency (proven by archaeology), and celebrate the same national holidays. Most Arabacized names of the cities and towns in Israel and Judea (or the West Bank) come from the Hebrew. So Jews aren't "foreign" to Israel.

Actually, thought there was SOME Arab immigration for jobs there is nothing to show that "most" came for that purpose. Neither group is foreign.

Except the one who has actually written INVADER on the forehead,
and marches under the flag of 4 various Caliphates that invaded several continents.

Who would that be?

You and I will never agree on this, so there is no point in going with it, wouldn't you agree?

Why is there no point?

l could accept a disagreement based on facts,
not a mere declaration of unwillingness to address them.

 

[USAF 2023]

I would agree that there is extremist violence coming from the settlers and it has led to horrific murders as well. They've even thrown stones at the IDF, and I think once at a US diplomatic contingent visiting the area. And I agree, enforcement and policing is still very lopsided against the Palestinians (for example it's crazy that children need soldiers with them just to safely get to school).

In defense - the IDF has finally started taking them very seriously, particularly after the teenaged boy was kidnapped and burned alive. They are viewing these extremists as terrorists and have been taking stronger measures (finally).

And, one of my complaints has always been that the Palestinians are under military law while Israelis in that area, get the benefit of civilian law (which grants many more rights and protections to minors). That is another reason IMO - that the status quo can't be maintained as it is.

So something needs to be done. Like some of the ideas in this plan.

Nothing changed. Of course, they are taking it "very seriously", which is why they opted to make filming the IDF's criminality and support of settler criminality a crime, punishable by up to ten years in prison.

The plan would visit further indignities on Palestinians. It would not - not - improve anything for Palestinians. It is hard, I know, but the plan is a "good job" done on Palestinians under the threadbare veil of lofty promises that will never materialize. I find, it's time for that reality to sink in.

Tell us please; What was wrong with Olmert's plan?

 

[Shusha]

I would agree that there is extremist violence coming from the settlers and it has led to horrific murders as well. They've even thrown stones at the IDF, and I think once at a US diplomatic contingent visiting the area. And I agree, enforcement and policing is still very lopsided against the Palestinians (for example it's crazy that children need soldiers with them just to safely get to school).

In defense - the IDF has finally started taking them very seriously, particularly after the teenaged boy was kidnapped and burned alive. They are viewing these extremists as terrorists and have been taking stronger measures (finally).

And, one of my complaints has always been that the Palestinians are under military law while Israelis in that area, get the benefit of civilian law (which grants many more rights and protections to minors). That is another reason IMO - that the status quo can't be maintained as it is.

So something needs to be done. Like some of the ideas in this plan.

Nothing changed. Of course, they are taking it "very seriously", which is why they opted to make filming the IDF's criminality and support of settler criminality a crime, punishable by up to ten years in prison.

The plan would visit further indignities on Palestinians. It would not - not - improve anything for Palestinians. It is hard, I know, but the plan is a "good job" done on Palestinians under the threadbare veil of lofty promises that will never materialize. I find, it's time for that reality to sink in.

Tell us please; What was wrong with Olmert's plan?

You mean, besides, Jews?

 

[Shusha]

And, one of my complaints has always been that the Palestinians are under military law while Israelis in that area, get the benefit of civilian law (which grants many more rights and protections to minors). That is another reason IMO - that the status quo can't be maintained as it is.

What everyone gets wrong about the "status quo" is that it is Israel's responsibility to change it. The status quo, including the two sets of law (which is a REQUIREMENT of "occupation"), exists because of the absence of normal relations between States.

There is a void. There are only four possible options for filling that void.

1. A State applies sovereignty over that territory.
2. The territory is abandoned by every State in the region.
3. A State applies temporary military control over the territory (occupies it).
4. A new State comes into being.

Israel can certainly choose any one of the first three. (As can/did other States like Jordan).

The international community tends to go into conniptions when Israel even suggests #1. And no other State even seems to want to consider it. Terrorist groups and their funding partners get the green light for killing civilians in the case of #2. Or the status quo for #3.

But the one thing Israel can not do is force Palestine to become a new state. Only the Palestinians can do that. So how long do we wait? And while we are waiting, what else IS there but the status quo?

 

[Shusha]

Interesting article in the Globe and Mail yesterday (?) suggested that the Palestinians have been pretty clear about what they don’t want.

Time for them to put together a peace plan of their. Let’s find out what the DO want.

We need to find out what they DO want?

It's rather obvious.

Oh, I agree that its obvious. But you know, sometimes, these things need to be spelled out to some people.

I would be very, very curious to see what Palestinians would offer as a comprehensive peace plan. I assume they would ask for:

• contiguity in all territories up to the 1949 Armistice Lines
• contiguity to Gaza, of some kind
• complete sovereignty and control over parts of Jerusalem, including the Old City and the Jewish holy and historical places there
• complete sovereignty and control over Hebron, including the Jewish holy and historical places there
• control over airspace, territorial waters
• full military capability (probably funded by someone)
• forced removal of all Israeli citizens
• settlement of all refugees in Israel "proper"
• $50 billion

So someone tell me why this would be a "good deal" for Israel. If you are someone who complains that the Trump Plan is a "bad" deal for Palestine, especially tell me why Israel would take the above, which is in all ways a "bad" deal for Israel.