Zone1 Trump : "and Mr Putin: If you don’t make a deal, we’re gonna give them a lot. We’re gonna give more than they ever got.”

[peacefan]

Many West-supplied weapons to Ukraine inferior to Soviet-made analogues — Shoigu
According to the defense minister, Russia was ready to share with its partners assessments concerning the weak sides of the Western military equipment

Remote : Tue, 15 Aug 2023 12:24:07 +0300
Local : 2023-08-15(Tuesday) 11 : 24 : 07
Found via NicerApp WebOS

please consider this as more evidence in the R&D challenges for our domestic military industries grows by the day now, in at least Russia, China and Iran.

 

[ESay]

We could stop the war in short order if Russia would agree to cease offensive operations in return for our keeping Ukraine out of NATO. If Ukraine refuses, we should cut off all military aid. If Russia refuses, we should start putting IRBMs back in Europe. It worked in 1983 and would work again to stop Russian aggression.

Unfortunately, Biden and Zelensky have their own political motives for continuing the war.

IRBMs? And you suppose Putin will be scared out of that? Don't be ridiculous. The only thing that could scare Putin is a serious military defeat. All other things are just meaningless bluff and posturing.

 

[jwoodie]

IRBMs? And you suppose Putin will be scared out of that? Don't be ridiculous. The only thing that could scare Putin is a serious military defeat. All other things are just meaningless bluff and posturing.

It scared Gorbachev into removing his IRBMs from Eastern Europe.

 

[ESay]

It scared Gorbachev into removing his IRBMs from Eastern Europe.

You are drawing incorrect historical parallels, not taking in account the difference in personalities and international policy in this context. Gorbachev wanted to ease tensions with the West and reform his country. Putin wants the exact opposite.

 

[peacefan]

You are drawing incorrect historical parallels, not taking in account the difference in personalities and international policy in this context. Gorbachev wanted to ease tensions with the West and reform his country. Putin wants the exact opposite.

we did kind of push the Russians into the corner of their oldest empirical borders, didn't we?
i think their current attitude towards the West is understandable.

 

[peacefan]

Trump praises Putin when Russia invaded Ukraine

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrO8JZtO8Fk8lkNbqNXNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNncTEEcG9zAzIEdnRpZANMT0NVSTEwMkJfMQRzZWMDc2M-/RV=2/RE=1690414061/RO=10/RU=https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/26/politics/trump-cpac-putin-ukraine/index.html/RK=2/RS=oI3_yWyN36w8bgmlOP72cWYKB9w-

“The problem is not that Putin is smart, which, of course, he’s smart,” Trump said. “The problem is that our leaders are dumb… and so far, allowed him to get away with this travesty and assault on humanity.”

Only Trump can praise a person and them blame others who had nothing to do with the invasion.

well, i think Trump was referring to the lack of decisive leadership from Western leaders towards ending the war in the early stages,
but it's also a fact Trump never elaborated on how *he* would have handled that moment in time.

 

[ESay]

we did kind of push the Russians into the corner of their oldest empirical borders, didn't we?
i think their current attitude towards the West is understandable.

The European Union and NATO are the best things that happened to Europe in generations. Quite naturally, Eastern Europe wanted to be a part of the Euro-Atlantic block when the Soviet-styled dictatorships failed.

Russia wants a divided Europe with its sphere of influence running from the Baltic to Black Seas. It is understandable that the nations who potentially fall in this sphere want to have protection from their backward neighbour.

 

[peacefan]

The European Union and NATO are the best things that happened to Europe in generations. Quite naturally, Eastern Europe wanted to be a part of the Euro-Atlantic block when the Soviet-styled dictatorships failed.

Russia wants a divided Europe with its sphere of influence running from the Baltic to Black Seas. It is understandable that the nations who potentially fall in this sphere want to have protection from their backward neighbour.

Russian leaders want a buffer zone in those Baltic states and contested areas of Ukraine.
and i don't think we can blame them for that.

the anti-commie feelings are still rife in the US for instance.

 

[luiza]

Russian air defenses intercept eight US-made HIMARS rockets in Ukraine operation
Remote : Sun, 13 Aug 2023 1548 +0300
Local : 2023-08-13(Sunday) 14 : 20 : 48
Found via NicerApp WebOS
in an effort to stay politically neutral in this conflict, i gotta add that Russia's military industrial complex seems to be catching up with the US military gear *really quickly*.
i consider that another argument made for investing in R&D rather than weapons fired.

It is way ahead of US , primarily due to present invincibility of their hyper sonic missiles . Presently Russia is taking Washington and Kyiv apart , piece by piece and step by step , There is absolutely no reason why Moscow should or will involve itself with any negotiations until it’s own aims have been fully realised . And if you do not like that —- tough

 

[peacefan]

It is way ahead of US , primarily due to present invincibility of their hyper sonic missiles . Presently Russia is taking Washington and Kyiv apart , piece by piece and step by step , There is absolutely no reason why Moscow should or will involve itself with any negotiations until it’s own aims have been fully realised . And if you do not like that —- tough

i think the R&D tide can be reversed, with the right investments by gov.

 

[ESay]

Russian leaders want a buffer zone in those Baltic states and contested areas of Ukraine.
and i don't think we can blame them for that.

the anti-commie feelings are still rife in the US for instance.

The Baltics are in the EU and NATO. So, any buffer zone there is hardly possible. About Ukraine, who knows.. There are much more questions than answers now.

 

[peacefan]

The Baltics are in the EU and NATO. So, any buffer zone there is hardly possible. About Ukraine, who knows.. There are much more questions than answers now.

Russia had to stand by as the Baltic countries disappeared from their radar into NATO.
nobody can blame their leaders for taking a stand in Ukraine, i think..
not with that ancient naval base of their protecting their backdoor sea (the Black Sea) over there.

 

[ESay]

Russia had to stand by as the Baltic countries disappeared from their radar into NATO.
nobody can blame their leaders for taking a stand in Ukraine, i think..
not with that ancient naval base of their protecting their backdoor sea (the Black Sea) over there.

You want to get on that slippery slope and find out who is more 'just' in this war? It is futile and pointless. Every side (like in every war) has their own truth and opposing views from the other side.

Did the Poles, Czechs, Latvians or other East European nations have a sovereign right to decide their future and political alignment? Yes.

Did the 'old' NATO members have a sovereign right to decide on who can join their block and on what terms? Yes.

Did Russia have a right to take some actions to cope with a threat some countries (presumably) pose to it? Well, it is a dangerous question, isn't it? But I think that a honest answer, based on historical precedents, is yes.

Do the Ukrainians have a sovereign right to decide on their future and political, economic and security alliances? Yes.

Do some people in Ukraine feel themselves 'sidelined' because of the Maidan revolution and don't want to be represented by the 'new' Ukrainian government? Yes.

You see, everyone is 'right' in this war.

 

[jwoodie]

You are drawing incorrect historical parallels, not taking in account the difference in personalities and international policy in this context. Gorbachev wanted to ease tensions with the West and reform his country. Putin wants the exact opposite.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Kilroy2]

well, i think Trump was referring to the lack of decisive leadership from Western leaders towards ending the war in the early stages,
but it's also a fact Trump never elaborated on how *he* would have handled that moment in time.

Because he believes that Putin is his friend and will listen to him. Putin has Russian objectives.

The bottom line is Russia was concerned about Ukraine joining NATO and did not want this. So they used the excuse of well there are some Russian descendants who want to join up with Russia. Thus they invaded and now want to take over Ukraine.

So why would he want to discus anything with Trump as Trump would not have anything to offer. Except if he promised that Ukraine would not join NATO. Also the defeat in Afghanistan is not something the wanted to repeat.

It is easy to say that I can do it better when you really don't have to do anything. He had 4 years to do something. He continued giving Ukraine money and weapons.

Trump tried to meet with Putin as a businessman and Putin would not grant him an audience. As the president he did meet Putin. Yet Trump has yet to tell us what was discussed.

Indicating that nothing was achieved other than meeting each other.

 

[ESay]

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

And? What do you want to say with that, comparing Gorbachev and Putin?

 

[jwoodie]

And? What do you want to say with that, comparing Gorbachev and Putin?

Do you have a better historical comparison?

 

[Billo_Really]

Trump finally reveals how he thinks he could end Russia’s war in Ukraine in a day

The former president boasted about his relationships to the Russian and Ukrainian presidents

www.independent.co.uk

i know very well that i've got only 1 out of 8+ billion of a voice here, but i like this plan.
Putin and his comerades only respect superior strength (much like the Chinese and the Muslims, by the way, and even ourselves - such 'enforced respect' seems a constant on this planet even).

i'm being serious : let's amend the NATO charter (if possible, of course) to let countries join *while* at war with another nation.
i really see no good reason for the opposite to be the law.

and let's support Ukraine with troops.
blitzkrieg has at least one advantage : a quick stabilization of the streets and fields.
i think Europe, if Trump gets elected and attempts to put anything like discussed in this post of mine into practice,
should fully support the war effort in Ukraine as well with more funds spent, an approval for that NATO charter amendment i just proposed in this post, and European boots driving the Russians out of Ukraine.
in matters of war, half-comitted support is often seen by the receiving side as a form of betrayal. that's really not how you want to embrace millions of people into your country unions.
the US freed Europe from the Nazis. now the EU + US + their allies should donate money time, and effort to combat the (Middle-)Eastern Alliance (China, Russia, Iran, Venezuela, Brazil, South Africa, etc) on all fronts they open.
because in all of my years of online peace activism (with a sometimes hawkish stance, admitted), i've never discovered any of the oppressed in that MEA have a solid foundation for their complaints about the west.

and recently i came to terms with the fact that both Biden and Trump are incredibly right on this after all. the people of Eastern Europe, when offered a well-informed choice about joining the EU and NATO, chose the EU and NATO.
if that means Russia's sphere of influence towards the south-west retreats to their national borders rather than that of their attempt to restart the USSR under a new name (Russian Federation, if i'm not mistaken),
then so be it.
they can expand towards China. police it against muslim extremism and other serious crime too, please. we do that in other places around the world then.

if we're going to take the Black Sea, let's do it with decisive force.
but in my opinion, not in this half-motivated way we've been seeing during -mark my words- what will be known as the starting years of the Ukrainian war.
we can count on our own conspiracy communities (and media industries), and our constitutional right to end the reign of any government that betrays the people in some way, to keep our governments honest enough for an actually sane, kind international order to be established.

This is proof Trump is stupid! He's just a dumb person.

 

[ESay]

Do you have a better historical comparison?

I don't, but this one clearly doesn't match up. Symbolic moves won't have any impact on the Putin's regime.

 

[JoeB131]

i pray we humans learn to soon overcome the need to kill eachother on a regular basis in large numbers.

Yes, that would be nice.

I'm sure that's what Neville Chamberlain thought at the Munich Conference.

Peace in our Time!

Time's up!