Too long ignored?

[Againsheila]

more and more, I just want to move into the mountains and become self sufficient, completely off the grid.

You should contact Dude. He could use a good woman to make him less gnarly.

Sorry, this woman's been taken for more than 29 years.

 

[MaggieMae]

They had the chance to put it right. It is not the taxpayers fault that they pissed our money away. You can't keep expecting the taxpayer to be a bottomless cash well for corrupt politicians. Next time, perhaps you should vote better and stop putting these bastards in office.

Find me politicians (potential new lawmakers) who won't become corrupt due to corporate lobbyists running the show, and they will all have my vote. That they just SAY so becomes mere drivel in less than a year in office because they soon get swept up in the money game.

Again, this conversation is getting steered toward US vs. THEM, when this is a major, MAJOR problem that, yes, can only be solved by taxes, but one that every single American (even those living abroad, if they care at all) should start paying serious attention to as a Number One Priority. A "stimulus" package meant only to jump start a flailing economy doesn't even amount to a decent bandaid on the larger, permanent, long-term problems.

Congress and national groups examine the infrastructure needs of the United States. - Free Online Library

American Society of Civil Engineers ) estimates that the backlog of deficient bridges alone will cost $9.4 billion a year for 20 years. The cost of repairing and maintaining roads, water facilities and the electrical grid bring the ASCE estimate of needed investment of $1.6 trillion over 5 years to restore the nation's infrastructure.

Vote out incumbents. Preferably those who run as Independents.

And, let's have term limits on these bastards. Limit the amount of time they have to become corrupt.

And who would have to vote for term limits? The very people it would affect. Nope. Gotta get the money out of politics, period. Frankly, there ARE some good people of all political persuasion with noble intentions, but money money money now more than ever in history speaks much louder than words.

 

[California Girl]

Find me politicians (potential new lawmakers) who won't become corrupt due to corporate lobbyists running the show, and they will all have my vote. That they just SAY so becomes mere drivel in less than a year in office because they soon get swept up in the money game.

Again, this conversation is getting steered toward US vs. THEM, when this is a major, MAJOR problem that, yes, can only be solved by taxes, but one that every single American (even those living abroad, if they care at all) should start paying serious attention to as a Number One Priority. A "stimulus" package meant only to jump start a flailing economy doesn't even amount to a decent bandaid on the larger, permanent, long-term problems.

Congress and national groups examine the infrastructure needs of the United States. - Free Online Library

Vote out incumbents. Preferably those who run as Independents.

And, let's have term limits on these bastards. Limit the amount of time they have to become corrupt.

And who would have to vote for term limits? The very people it would affect. Nope. Gotta get the money out of politics, period. Frankly, there ARE some good people of all political persuasion with noble intentions, but money money money now more than ever in history speaks much louder than words.

We need term limits.

And yea, we do need a far tighter control on the money.

And we really need to stop voting on party rather than people.

 

[ConHog]

Find me politicians (potential new lawmakers) who won't become corrupt due to corporate lobbyists running the show, and they will all have my vote. That they just SAY so becomes mere drivel in less than a year in office because they soon get swept up in the money game.

Again, this conversation is getting steered toward US vs. THEM, when this is a major, MAJOR problem that, yes, can only be solved by taxes, but one that every single American (even those living abroad, if they care at all) should start paying serious attention to as a Number One Priority. A "stimulus" package meant only to jump start a flailing economy doesn't even amount to a decent bandaid on the larger, permanent, long-term problems.

Congress and national groups examine the infrastructure needs of the United States. - Free Online Library

Vote out incumbents. Preferably those who run as Independents.

And, let's have term limits on these bastards. Limit the amount of time they have to become corrupt.

And who would have to vote for term limits? The very people it would affect. Nope. Gotta get the money out of politics, period. Frankly, there ARE some good people of all political persuasion with noble intentions, but money money money now more than ever in history speaks much louder than words.

A good start would be to make it ILLEGAL to donate to specific candidates or parties, and equally illegal to accept such donations. by illegal I mean a felony with a minimum 10 year sentence.

Instead if you would like to donate to the political process, you are welcome to donate to a non profit ran by professionals from within and from without the government who will then provide equal shares to all candidates running for office.

Lobbyists are also now illegal.

 

[uscitizen]

When does hunting season on lobbyists open?
How much is a tag?
Daily bag limit?

 

[ConHog]

When does hunting season on lobbyists open?
How much is a tag?
Daily bag limit?

Year round
No tag required
No limit

 

[MaggieMae]

This type of assumption is inaccurate. Bridges all across the US are monintored for wear-and-tear by county highway departments under the supervision of the highway engineers. and funds are available to make repairs or perform maintenance in a timely manner. The number of bridges in a single county is much greater than the average person would believe. Bridge failures rarely are a result of maintenance failures or lack of repairs. They are usually engineering failures.

A third of the nations highways being in mediocre (average") condition is not a failure of maintenance, it is a statistical likelihood.

There is very very little leakage of potable water lines, just not out there.
Sewerage problems are presently under a system of funding that allows them to be inspected constantly and repairs to be made as problems are discovered, and local authorities apply for and get partial funding for all work. There is presently in effect a system in which cities/towns are banned from adding any new residential development until they attain those standards, which in effect limits their growth and their taxing base with they desperately need. It is a self adjusting system, of sticks and carrots. Our streams are the cleanest they've been since the expansion west.

"Weakened and under-maintained levees and dams tower over communities and schools" Not likely. Sure corruption occurs like in New Orleans where money for maintenance and improvements of levees are sidetracked by corrupt politicians who pocket the money, or use it to buy their elections, but very very few schools are built in vulnerable valley drainage systems. Why not focus on those? Punish the owners of the dams with ongoing fines, or require they be drained down to safer levels.

The power grid? why not encourage its development and improvement rather than discouraging it? No electrical utility company wants their capacity to become strained. The worse case is California, and they inhibit the growth of electrical utilities, forcing the import of their electrical power from state further east. It's a political/ governing problem first of all.

When I guess all that film and interview material with private sector engineers is all manufactured just for an entertaining piece by The History Channel. Right?

Your solution seems to be just kill all politicians. How's that worked out for ya so far? If the tea party can demand that Washington listen to their selected complaints, and be successful, then why can't they simply add our crumbling infrastructure to their list?

Because there already is a tried and tested formal process for handling infrastructure maintenance and development, and the problems we have in it come, as usual from our politicians.

Take sewers: cities/towns with sewer systems and treatment plants get their revenue for maintenance and upgrades from the customer base. They also get moneys from tap-on fees. They do not have to accumulate enough money to upgrade, they can leverage enough money to make those with a much smaller amount. But the EPA and state departments of environmental management properly get involved and force they when upgrading to do things they might not want to take the time of resources to do. It may mean abandoning an old plant and going further downstream an build a new one there. but this means building a larger intercepting main line than they ordinarily would think needed, and they just want to get on with it so they can encourage growth and property tax base again. This is a good process, and means all levels of government are involved.

But there are times and places where the local government officials can move the money that would be used to leverage the needed work to pet projects, and they let their plant deterioriate. Again they are forced to pay attention because their constitutents suffer from lack of growth and development, and new jobs fail to materialize for their children as they graduate from high school or college.

The process is self adjusting and regulating if left alone. It has developed over the past 150 years, and works well when not short circuited.

I happen to live between two incorporated population centers. The larger one sees the revenues from sewage treatment as a boondoggle to expand other unrelated city sponsored services; an ice skating arena, a new park, buying a piece of real-estate for some future government expansion of unknown purpose, or some other scheme that would be better left to private enterprise, or at least put off until the budget permits; though I doubt that land speculation has a place in city government...ever. But when these diversions take place the budget soars, and property taxes become unbearable to many. Then the citizens rise up, a new governing body moves in and undoes the harm if the harm hasn't been too great. This is self regulating.

The smaller incorporated population center resolved its sewage plant problems by a process of study, and application, and leveraged financing from the FHA, and has move on. They operate with targetted taxes and revenues from the public they serve. That's because the process is so close to the citizens, and they have an need and an opportunity to be involved, attend meetings, serve on commissions to resolve the deficiencies; the American way.

When the government sends vast sums of moneys out to the precincts it short circuits this regulating system, and sets up an expectation for the same in the future.

The engineers who are involved in this study: I wonder how gainfully employed their businesses are in the work they see as needing to be done. Why not offer their services to any number of local authorities which they identify as those being in need? If the situation is dangerous, or at a tipping point there are plenty of ways to move these critical projects into actualization, and the financing process is there without their usurping it. They seem to be politically motivated in this expose. I don't want to kill any politicians at all; I'd just like them to find another way to seek prominence. This type of movement, if it took hold, would waste vast sums of money, and interupt the process.

While I understand your argument about manipulating money that should go to the intended project but is spent frivolously in some cases, that still doesn't address the obvious deteriorization that everyone who's eyes are wide open can see every single day of his/her life, somewhere. I don't think anyone will ever solve the problem of waste in major construction projects. It also can happen by manipulative private contractors! Imagine that. Someday, when the right thread comes along, I'll tell my horror story about a condo in Houston I bought that was so inferior, the entire complex had to be torn down within five years, before it fell down.

A lot of infrastructure funding comes from issuing bonds at the local level, but it is still in most cases, a private contractor selected for the actual work. So, in essence, such projects are not completely controlled by manipulating politicians nor brought to the public's attention by biased documentaries.

 

[MaggieMae]

more and more, I just want to move into the mountains and become self sufficient, completely off the grid.

You should contact Dude. He could use a good woman to make him less gnarly.

Sorry, this woman's been taken for more than 29 years.

And here's hoping there'll be another 29!

 

[bigrebnc1775]

"The Crumbling of America" can be seen on The History Channel from 5PM to 7PM (edt) today.

This is a HUGE wakeup call.

America's infrastructure is collapsing. Tens of thousands of bridges are structurally deficient or functionally obsolete. A third of the nation's highways are in poor or mediocre shape. Massively leaking water and sewage systems are creating health hazards and contaminating rivers and streams. Weakened and under-maintained levees and dams tower over communities and schools. And the power grid is increasingly maxed out, disrupting millions of lives and putting entire cities in the dark. The Crumbling of America explores these problems using expert interviews, on location shooting and computer generated animation to illustrate the kinds of infrastructure disasters that could be just around the bend.

The stimulus checks in the mail. With all that money the government borrowed every road bridge and government building should be up to date by now.

 

[The T]

we've already heard this story, nearly two years ago when they passed the "unread" "emergency" stimulus funds to take care of the infrastructure and put people to work doing "shovel ready" jobs. we ain't falling for that shit a second time. get over it.

Yep. But government was more interested in their friggin' social engineering for their control over the people rather than what they are Constitutionally mandated to do and that is roads and their maintenance.

 

[uscitizen]

"The Crumbling of America" can be seen on The History Channel from 5PM to 7PM (edt) today.

This is a HUGE wakeup call.

America's infrastructure is collapsing. Tens of thousands of bridges are structurally deficient or functionally obsolete. A third of the nation's highways are in poor or mediocre shape. Massively leaking water and sewage systems are creating health hazards and contaminating rivers and streams. Weakened and under-maintained levees and dams tower over communities and schools. And the power grid is increasingly maxed out, disrupting millions of lives and putting entire cities in the dark. The Crumbling of America explores these problems using expert interviews, on location shooting and computer generated animation to illustrate the kinds of infrastructure disasters that could be just around the bend.

The stimulus checks in the mail. With all that money the government borrowed every road bridge and government building should be up to date by now.

But we have been spending borrowed money for years just to keep the unemployment numbers down.
Do we have bridges? Jobs? healthcare?

And I won't even get into the money blown on Iraq and stuff like that over the years.
Much of our borrowed money seems to have been going into Iraq for several years now.

 

[American Horse]

When I guess all that film and interview material with private sector engineers is all manufactured just for an entertaining piece by The History Channel. Right?

Your solution seems to be just kill all politicians. How's that worked out for ya so far? If the tea party can demand that Washington listen to their selected complaints, and be successful, then why can't they simply add our crumbling infrastructure to their list?

Because there already is a tried and tested formal process for handling infrastructure maintenance and development, and the problems we have in it come, as usual from our politicians.

Take sewers: cities/towns with sewer systems and treatment plants get their revenue for maintenance and upgrades from the customer base. They also get moneys from tap-on fees. They do not have to accumulate enough money to upgrade, they can leverage enough money to make those with a much smaller amount. But the EPA and state departments of environmental management properly get involved and force they when upgrading to do things they might not want to take the time of resources to do. It may mean abandoning an old plant and going further downstream an build a new one there. but this means building a larger intercepting main line than they ordinarily would think needed, and they just want to get on with it so they can encourage growth and property tax base again. This is a good process, and means all levels of government are involved.

But there are times and places where the local government officials can move the money that would be used to leverage the needed work to pet projects, and they let their plant deterioriate. Again they are forced to pay attention because their constitutents suffer from lack of growth and development, and new jobs fail to materialize for their children as they graduate from high school or college.

The process is self adjusting and regulating if left alone. It has developed over the past 150 years, and works well when not short circuited.

I happen to live between two incorporated population centers. The larger one sees the revenues from sewage treatment as a boondoggle to expand other unrelated city sponsored services; an ice skating arena, a new park, buying a piece of real-estate for some future government expansion of unknown purpose, or some other scheme that would be better left to private enterprise, or at least put off until the budget permits; though I doubt that land speculation has a place in city government...ever. But when these diversions take place the budget soars, and property taxes become unbearable to many. Then the citizens rise up, a new governing body moves in and undoes the harm if the harm hasn't been too great. This is self regulating.

The smaller incorporated population center resolved its sewage plant problems by a process of study, and application, and leveraged financing from the FHA, and has move on. They operate with targetted taxes and revenues from the public they serve. That's because the process is so close to the citizens, and they have an need and an opportunity to be involved, attend meetings, serve on commissions to resolve the deficiencies; the American way.

When the government sends vast sums of moneys out to the precincts it short circuits this regulating system, and sets up an expectation for the same in the future.

The engineers who are involved in this study: I wonder how gainfully employed their businesses are in the work they see as needing to be done. Why not offer their services to any number of local authorities which they identify as those being in need? If the situation is dangerous, or at a tipping point there are plenty of ways to move these critical projects into actualization, and the financing process is there without their usurping it. They seem to be politically motivated in this expose. I don't want to kill any politicians at all; I'd just like them to find another way to seek prominence. This type of movement, if it took hold, would waste vast sums of money, and interupt the process.

While I understand your argument about manipulating money that should go to the intended project but is spent frivolously in some cases, that still doesn't address the obvious deteriorization that everyone who's eyes are wide open can see every single day of his/her life, somewhere. I don't think anyone will ever solve the problem of waste in major construction projects. It also can happen by manipulative private contractors! Imagine that. Someday, when the right thread comes along, I'll tell my horror story about a condo in Houston I bought that was so inferior, the entire complex had to be torn down within five years, before it fell down.

A lot of infrastructure funding comes from issuing bonds at the local level, but it is still in most cases, a private contractor selected for the actual work. So, in essence, such projects are not completely controlled by manipulating politicians nor brought to the public's attention by biased documentaries.

I don't deny that there is always an oppportunity to do some good work on infrastructure. And you say any of us can look around and identify the deterioriation. Fine . . identify something in plain sight and call the responsible authority (water co, sewer co, highway dept) and ask them what the status of that identifiable problem is at the present moment. I would bet that it is already identified and in the process of a solution in a normal work cycle which protects public safety and investment.

Highway maintenance and construction are already folded into a tax/revenue targetted system. This is ideal. Money from the general fund is not used for these things, but instead taxes from the sale of gasoline is held in a trust fund for maintenance or new work. This is the case for both federal and state funding, with states proposing and leveraging federal money for projects they identify. To me this is ideal. Actually, as I've said it's the same for water and sewer; the customers pay for the systems maintenance. Extensions, surprisingly are paid for by developers, who work under city or town auspices and approvals, so no governemt money is used. Bridges are also covered by the highway trust fund.

Dams at ponds and lakes are oftentimes privately onwned and are definitely outside any system of funding for repair or maintenance that I am aware of, so there is a potential problem, with safety issues. Still there is authority for the state or other civil entity to cause inspections, and enforce compliance by the individuals involved.

Too often, our politicians demand earmarks from highway funds, unrelated to highway maintenance. In our own district right now an elevated (call it a bridge) roadway for a walking path is being constructed over a local residential street which really has no great amount of traffic, and less traffic than many other cross streets the "walking path" must cross. I know concrete work and this is a million dollar project, serving no really useful purpose. It's possible, likely really, this is the resuilt of a deal to get a vote for an earmark (Obama money?) that came from money that could've been properly spent. At least it won't be in the way. But how about wheelchair users who can't safely negotiate the grade up-slope or down slope. I assume they'll just leave the path and bi-pass this dangerous incline.

The system needs to be tigntened, not loosened. Inspector Generals can monitor extablished systems, but stuff like the "stimulus" money can be wasted, and once an Inspecto-General identifies waste . . . what the heck, it's already done, so who really cares.

Your problem with a condo in Houston came from a failure of enforcement of the building code. If inspections had been enforced along the way, none of that would've happened, because the project would've been red flagged until corrections were made to ensure proper construction methods. I understand that at least one of the major cities in Texas has a problem with zoning, and that could extend over to building compliance.

When a city like Houston refuses to pass zoning ordinances, then fine, but then the state fire marshal should enforce building standards and compliance. Clearly something happened there that shouldn't have. I'd suspect corruption between a contractor and a set of public officials.

 

[Missourian]

The stimulus money did not go for pay offs (mostly) but it did get used in many state and local budgets to replace falling revenues. Few actual infrastructure projects have been funded.

My ex worked for Westinghouse back in the '80s, repairing signals on railroad lines. I assume you guys know this is the preferred method of moving toxic waste, like nuclear rods? Those lines are in terrible condition.

A disaster or two is inevitable if we do not wake the fuck up.

We just more a few truckloads of railroad switches from Kansas City to Chicago that were paid for by stimulus.

They were top of the line diamond plated chrome...the guys who unloaded the said a normal switch cost a thousand dollars each...these were $8500 each...bought with stimulus money.

These were union railroad builders in Chicago, and even they were appalled.

I can't find any source for that by Googling diamond plated chrome railroad switches from Kansas City to Chicago paid for by stimulus.

Perhaps you have a credible source?

Metro Magazine

Amtrak is using $115 million in funds from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act to improve tracks, buildings and control systems in Chicago this construction season, as part of a $1 billion construction program to fund capital projects designed to rebuild the critical infrastructure of America's Railroad.


“We are investing in our infrastructure in Chicago to improve our operations and support the growing demand to travel by Amtrak,” said President/CEO Joseph Boardman.


...SNIP...


Amtrak has awarded a $106.2 million contract to replace or renew approximately five miles of track and to renovate or repair buildings used to inspect and maintain Amtrak trains at Chicago Union Station. Water, air, lighting, natural gas and heated track switching systems will be replaced or upgraded to improve service reliability in Chicago’s harsh winters and to meet the demands of growing ridership. Jacobs Inc. and subcontractors Kiewit Western Co. and Swanson Contracting are performing the work.

Metro Magazine

​

As luck would have it, I actually have a picture of the load being unloaded at the Canal St. and 16th St. Construction yard for Kiewit Western Co. near Union Station, Chicago.


I like to take pictures of my trucks with well known landmarks in the background. Here the Sears Tower dominates the skyline...you can clearly see Canal Street Storage's sign prominently in the image.

Stacks of railroad ties in the yard.

And chrome switches...shinier than a freshly washed all aluminum trailer.
There is no difference between the workings of these switches and the old switches.
The upgrade is 100% cosmetic.

Canal Street Self Storage...See all those tracks? That's Union Station.

Google Maps


Any more questions?

 

[Flopper]

"The Crumbling of America" can be seen on The History Channel from 5PM to 7PM (edt) today.

This is a HUGE wakeup call.

America's infrastructure is collapsing. Tens of thousands of bridges are structurally deficient or functionally obsolete. A third of the nation's highways are in poor or mediocre shape. Massively leaking water and sewage systems are creating health hazards and contaminating rivers and streams. Weakened and under-maintained levees and dams tower over communities and schools. And the power grid is increasingly maxed out, disrupting millions of lives and putting entire cities in the dark. The Crumbling of America explores these problems using expert interviews, on location shooting and computer generated animation to illustrate the kinds of infrastructure disasters that could be just around the bend.

The stimulus checks in the mail. With all that money the government borrowed every road bridge and government building should be up to date by now.

But we have been spending borrowed money for years just to keep the unemployment numbers down.
Do we have bridges? Jobs? healthcare?

And I won't even get into the money blown on Iraq and stuff like that over the years.
Much of our borrowed money seems to have been going into Iraq for several years now.

We have the capability to maintain our infrastructure. We just choose to direct our resources elsewhere.

 

[Synthaholic]

Find me politicians (potential new lawmakers) who won't become corrupt due to corporate lobbyists running the show, and they will all have my vote. That they just SAY so becomes mere drivel in less than a year in office because they soon get swept up in the money game.

Again, this conversation is getting steered toward US vs. THEM, when this is a major, MAJOR problem that, yes, can only be solved by taxes, but one that every single American (even those living abroad, if they care at all) should start paying serious attention to as a Number One Priority. A "stimulus" package meant only to jump start a flailing economy doesn't even amount to a decent bandaid on the larger, permanent, long-term problems.

Congress and national groups examine the infrastructure needs of the United States. - Free Online Library

Vote out incumbents. Preferably those who run as Independents.

And, let's have term limits on these bastards. Limit the amount of time they have to become corrupt.

And who would have to vote for term limits? The very people it would affect. Nope. Gotta get the money out of politics, period. Frankly, there ARE some good people of all political persuasion with noble intentions, but money money money now more than ever in history speaks much louder than words.

Right now, every Congresscritter spends over 50% of their time fundraising, in some manner. That means we get them working on our business less than half the time - on our dime.

How long until it takes up 75% of their time? 90%? When will they have time to do the legitimate business of the people who send them there?

 

[saveliberty]

Infrastrctre crumbling? How can that be, we had the mother of all stimulus it must be fixed by now. Oh, that's right we decided to give it to unionized people who vote Democratic for the most part. Maybe we can drive over them?

 

[hipeter924]

Vote out incumbents. Preferably those who run as Independents.

And, let's have term limits on these bastards. Limit the amount of time they have to become corrupt.

And who would have to vote for term limits? The very people it would affect. Nope. Gotta get the money out of politics, period. Frankly, there ARE some good people of all political persuasion with noble intentions, but money money money now more than ever in history speaks much louder than words.

Right now, every Congresscritter spends over 50% of their time fundraising, in some manner. That means we get them working on our business less than half the time - on our dime.

How long until it takes up 75% of their time? 90%? When will they have time to do the legitimate business of the people who send them there?

Every politician does that, the days of politicians that do it for their country are long gone.

 

[saveliberty]

Actually I sort of like them doing things other than passing more spending and liberty defying bills.

 

[Synthaholic]

Vote out incumbents. Preferably those who run as Independents.

And, let's have term limits on these bastards. Limit the amount of time they have to become corrupt.

And who would have to vote for term limits? The very people it would affect. Nope. Gotta get the money out of politics, period. Frankly, there ARE some good people of all political persuasion with noble intentions, but money money money now more than ever in history speaks much louder than words.

We need term limits.

And yea, we do need a far tighter control on the money.

And we really need to stop voting on party rather than people.

Let me get this straight:

Right-wingers and tea-baggers preach personal responsibility, yet want to create a new law to save them from having to actually practice personal responsibility?

And even though they SWEAR that they hate government because they say that it curtails their "freedom", they would happily turn to a government solution in an effort to VOLUNTARILY limit their freedoms?

Holy shit!

 

[hipeter924]

Actually I sort of like them doing things other than passing more spending and liberty defying bills.

It's what they do all day, the only things that improve the economy and the country happen outside the Federal government, basically because bureaucracy grinds everywhere else to a halt.