Tolerance? Not for Christians...

[Immanuel]

Keeton is unwilling to keep her religious beliefs to herself, and that is against professional counseling standards.

How do you know that? Because she's spoken to a friend and her professor? When was a law passed that we weren't allowed to express our religious beliefs to our classmates and professors? The is nothing that requires anyone to keep their religious beliefs, or non-beliefs to themselves. Now speaking about them while she's counseling someone is something else entirely.

You do realize that Christians are only the first, don't you? We won't be the last. This is a dangerous topic. When we stop allowing people to profess their beliefs in public, we have lost our freedoms that our forefathers specifically stated we have, "freedom of religion". How more specific can you get?

None of us know the full story because it hasn't come out yet.

What Keeton wants is an excemption from professional standards due to her religous beliefs.

She wants special treatment.

Wrong!

She wants to be allowed to believe what she believes.

She has not indicated that she would not abide by the professional standards.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

How do you know that? Because she's spoken to a friend and her professor? When was a law passed that we weren't allowed to express our religious beliefs to our classmates and professors? The is nothing that requires anyone to keep their religious beliefs, or non-beliefs to themselves. Now speaking about them while she's counseling someone is something else entirely.

You do realize that Christians are only the first, don't you? We won't be the last. This is a dangerous topic. When we stop allowing people to profess their beliefs in public, we have lost our freedoms that our forefathers specifically stated we have, "freedom of religion". How more specific can you get?

None of us know the full story because it hasn't come out yet.

What Keeton wants is an excemption from professional standards due to her religous beliefs.

She wants special treatment.

Wrong!

She wants to be allowed to believe what she believes.

She has not indicated that she would not abide by the professional standards.

Immie

That's what will be determined in court. Keeton escalated her acadmic problem to the point of initiating a lawsuit. Who wants to hire a litigous counselor. Who will she sue next?

 

[Immanuel]

I wouldn't counsel a conservative Christian. I would refer to another counselor.

Really? You surprise me.

Immie

Truth is I counsel one Christian woman but we don't discuss her faith. She knows I'm gay. I assume if that was an issue for her she would go elsewhere.

Not all Christians are homophobes.

Funny, how you use that term.

Maybe we should simply start calling non-christians "Christophobes"?

That is basically the way you are using the term "homophobe".

Immie

Edit: PS Apologies to Dilloduck... I had not seen his earlier post.

 

[Againsheila]

Kind of odd for someone who is supposed to be a Buddhist.

Yeah, I think I went a little over the top with that one.

Hey, I didn't say I WAS over the top, I just said "I think".

 

[Immanuel]

IMO everyone can benefit from diversity training. One of the things it does is help a person look at their own biases.

Obviously, I have biases myself.

Keeton is biased against homosexuality and she wouldn't shut up about it in class. She brought her bias to the faculty's attention repeatedly.

I don't know why it seems so threatening to a supposedly strong Christian to attend diversity training.

My guess is her faith is weak.

I don't agree with you.

Personally, I think "forced re-education" is a tragedy. You simply cannot force someone to believe what you want them to believe. The whole idea is fascist in my humble opinion. This is why I call this brainwashing.

She doesn't want to be there. They are putting her into diversity (aka political correctness) training at the barrel of a gun and they are wrong for doing so.

A person has to want to learn in order to learn. It cannot be forced upon them.

And you all are jumping the gun, in your repeated claims that she will not maintain a professional demeanor in a counseling session.

She has stated her beliefs to professors and classmates. That is a far cry from an authoritative counselor forcing her beliefs upon a client.

Immie

More to the point her professors have serious doubts about her ability to set aside her extreme views about homosexuality.

It's not my decision, it's the schools.

Really what that all boils down to is that those liberal professors do not like the idea that she has not "seen the light".

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

Yeah, I think I went a little over the top with that one.

Hey, I didn't say I WAS over the top, I just said "I think".

OKaaaay.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I don't agree with you.

Personally, I think "forced re-education" is a tragedy. You simply cannot force someone to believe what you want them to believe. The whole idea is fascist in my humble opinion. This is why I call this brainwashing.

She doesn't want to be there. They are putting her into diversity (aka political correctness) training at the barrel of a gun and they are wrong for doing so.

A person has to want to learn in order to learn. It cannot be forced upon them.

And you all are jumping the gun, in your repeated claims that she will not maintain a professional demeanor in a counseling session.

She has stated her beliefs to professors and classmates. That is a far cry from an authoritative counselor forcing her beliefs upon a client.

Immie

More to the point her professors have serious doubts about her ability to set aside her extreme views about homosexuality.

It's not my decision, it's the schools.

Really what that all boils down to is that those liberal professors do not like the idea that she has not "seen the light".

Immie

Yeah, as usual, the problem is those damned libruls.

bTW there are websites dedicated to taking bets on this lawsuit. Put yer money where yer mouth is.

 

[dilloduck]

None of us know the full story because it hasn't come out yet.

What Keeton wants is an excemption from professional standards due to her religous beliefs.

She wants special treatment.

Wrong!

She wants to be allowed to believe what she believes.

She has not indicated that she would not abide by the professional standards.

Immie

That's what will be determined in court. Keeton escalated her acadmic problem to the point of a lawsuit. Who wants to hire a litigous counselor. Who will she sue next?

Oh now we're bashing her for filing a lawsuit ? How about we take away all her civil rights ? I love how you continue to up the ante against her. You really should recuse yourself from counseling Christians.

 

[Steerpike]

Really what that all boils down to is that those liberal professors do not like the idea that she has not "seen the light".

Immie

What is comes down to is that many humans will make excuses to justify their lack of tolerance, or discrimination, or whatever you want to call it, with respect to those with whom they disagree.

Many Christians who rush to defend this lady (and rightly so) would at the same time support discrimination against homosexuals in other areas.

As we can see from this thread, plenty of people who ostensibly support tolerance and inclusion are more than happy to cast those values aside when it comes to a Christian or (I suspect) others with whom they disagree politically or religiously.

Fact is, you'll find precious few people who take a position of tolerance, anti-discrimination, etc., and apply it consistently, whether they agree or disagree with a person.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Wrong!

She wants to be allowed to believe what she believes.

She has not indicated that she would not abide by the professional standards.

Immie

That's what will be determined in court. Keeton escalated her acadmic problem to the point of a lawsuit. Who wants to hire a litigous counselor. Who will she sue next?

Oh now we're bashing her for filing a lawsuit ? How about we take away all her civil rights ?

Keeton is free to sue whoever she wants. Her track record of controversy will follow her into her career. It's hardly 'bashing' to point that out.


ACA Section A-4, b states that counselors should avoid imposing their "values attitudes and beliefs" on others.

 

[Immanuel]

Bigotry is not a Christian value, but you have not proven that she would behave in an bigoted manner. She doesn't agree with the current thinking on the issue, but you have not proven that she would do anything at all to hurt a client.

Immie

no, bigotry is NOT a christian value. but it's truly amazing how many christians use it as a means of justifying their bigotry.


she HAS behaved in a bigoted manner. HER TRAINING REQUIRES THAT SHE COUNSEL EVERYONE.

why are you intentionally ignoring that? because it's being required of a christian?

jesus would have been the first person to counsel anyone.... regardless of sexuality.

but i guess this is ok for yet another *wah wah, i'm a poor christian victim* thread.

No one has ignored that as it is not even part of the discussion here. She has not refused to counsel anyone nor has she stated that she would not counsel homosexuals. Perhaps you are thinking of the other case?

I would assume that if later on she got into a situation that she could not handle she would refer the client to another counselor. I see nothing wrong with that just as you as an attorney might refer a client who came to you seeking a divorce if you are a criminal attorney.

I refuse to believe the worst in her simply because she is a Christian.

Yes, Jesus, would have been the first person to counsel anyone and sexuality would not necessarily play a part of his counseling session. Christ would deal with the homosexual in the same manner he dealt with the adulteress.

It is unfair of you to claim that I am only in this because it is a Christian. I have repeatedly defended others including homosexuals. My defense of Ms. Keeton has nothing to do with her faith. My defense of her has everything to do with liberals attempting to force tolerance on the rest of the world... their brand of tolerance that is!

It is the force that I cannot abide by.

Immie

 

[Coyote]

From the articles themselves, they are attempting to force her out of the program because she maintains the belief that homosexuality is a choice. This belief of hers is religious in nature.

This is how I see it Immie - and I am not a counselor.

The associations that govern standards for the profession she wants to be in - ACA, APA, ASCA - all are in agreement that homosexuality is not a choice but a state of being. Others may disagree - but that is irrelevant because that that is what the profession goes by.

The other thing is that counseling requires a person to be able to set aside their beliefs and be non-judgemental in order to create an atmosphere where the client is comfortable talking about whatever he needs to, without being censored. The counselor has to be able to get a client's trust in order help the client navigate the issues and come to his own solutions. At no time does the counselor propose solutions or make any statements about morality or ethics - the client has to come up with that on his own, according to his own moral compass. Right?

That often means that the counseler does have to affirm in some way, certain aspects of the client's being or his actions. The standards state - on multiple levels, that there should be no discrimination based on sexual orientation (amongst a number of things) and the ASCA states: "Each person has the right to be respected, be treated with dignity and have access to a comprehensive school counseling program that advocates for and affirms all students from diverse populations regardless of ..... gender identity/expression..."

Can Miss Keeton do that based on the positions she has taken so far? She has, according to affidavit by another student - expressed views promoting a type of therapy that is deemed dangerous by her profession. She has also held to views that homosexuality is a "choice", also counter to her professions views. She has a right to her views. I don't deny that. But her refusal to agree to some of the tenants required by her degree and subsequently, the professional standards that govern her chosen career seem to indicate that this isn't the career for her.

The agency that governs accredidation for ASU's counseling program also states: "Consistent with established institutional due process policy and the American Counseling Association’s (ACA) code of ethics and other relevant codes of ethics and standards of practice, if evaluations indicate that a student is not appropriate for the program, faculty members help facilitate the student’s transition out of the program and, if possible, into a more appropriate area of study."

In terms of her belief - no, it isn't necessarily religious. The idea that homosexuality is a "choice" is shared by many who are not religious as well. She frames it in religious terms, but, even her own religion isn't in agreement on that.

They are not processing her out because of anything except for her religious beliefs.

By affirming, are you indicating that a counselor has to tell the alcoholic that it is okay to be drunk? Must he tell the alcoholic who admits to drinking and driving to do whatever he thinks is right?

Drinking is a behavior.

Homosexuality is a state of being - according to Ms Keetons chosen profession.

This is at least one point where, I think Ms Keeton's views do not allow her to meet the standards of her profession.

That seems to be what you indicate when you place all emphasis upon "affirmation".

Does a counselor have to tell a suicidal client that what he is feeling is okay and that suicide might be the answer?

Part of the code of ethics also includes "do no harm" which is why I said this is a profession that requires a great deal of personal judgement and empathy.

There is a difference between affirmation and condemnation. No one is suggesting condemnation, but you are suggesting affirmation which is just as wrong.

Immie

So, what does she say then, when confronted with a homosexual adolescent?

 

[AllieBaba]

And again.
Affirming the life of a client IS NOT THE SAME AS AFFIRMING THE LIFESTYLE.
Do you understand yet? Affirming the person is NOT the same as giving kudos for lifestyle. Counselors are absolutely NOT required to proclaim their support of any lifestyle.

So tell me, when are the gay counselors going to start affirming the lifestyles of conservative Christians? Any time soon? You know if they don't, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Christians. That means no gay teachers, counselors, prison guards, caseworkers, school kitchen workers, child care providers...

Are you getting a whiff of the hypocrisy yet? No? Yes? Don't care?
















Read the ethics.

I have.
You and Sky are touting a dishonest premise, which is that the ethics require an affirmation of LIFESTYLE. That is a lie. The ethics require affirmation of people regardless of their lifestyles. I have yet to meet a counselor who is required to tell someone "Hey, it's great you're gay! I support your lifestyle!"

It's ridiculous. Besides being dishonest and prejudicial on your part.
But that's not surprising.

Geesh.

I have posted the ethics so many times and now I can't find them. The ethics read that you're willing to affirm the lives of your clients even though their values may be different from your own.

Keeton thinks her biblical morality is appropriate for ALL people. That's the problem.

And again.
Affirming the life of a client IS NOT THE SAME AS AFFIRMING THE LIFESTYLE.
Do you understand yet? Affirming the person is NOT the same as giving kudos for lifestyle. Counselors are absolutely NOT required to proclaim their support of any lifestyle.

So tell me, when are the gay counselors going to start affirming the lifestyles of conservative Christians? Any time soon? You know if they don't, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Christians. That means no gay teachers, counselors, prison guards, caseworkers, school kitchen workers, child care providers...

Are you getting a whiff of the hypocrisy yet? No? Yes? Don't care?

All Christians think their biblical morality is for all persons. THAT'S WHAT MAKES US CHRISTIANS AND NOT BUDDHISTS. It's not a problem as the tenet of the religion is that WE ALL ARE SINNERS. We all fall short of the glory of God; homosexuality is one example of a way we do so, but so is extramarital sex, covetnous, dishonesty and a whole slew of other things.

 

[Immanuel]

I wouldn't counsel a conservative Christian. I would refer to another counselor.

Really? You surprise me.

Immie

I would expect any and all counseling students in graduate degree programs to meet the American Counseling Association code of ethics and educational standards in order to receive an ACA accredited degree. My understanding is once you achieve the degree (partially by demonstrating the ability to remain objective) the counselor would be free to refer a patient out to another counselor.



BTW - If Christian counselors want to create their own professional association, code of ethics and educational programs aren't they free to do so...?

The problem is that the university wishes to take her money and then deny her degree. They are refusing to fulfill their side of the contract claiming that she will not uphold the ethical standards. How can they possibly know that? Their refusal to fulfill their side of the contract will deny her the educational standards that she needs to meet the ACA standards. If she passes the courses, then I believe she meets those requirements.

As for ethical considerations, the university is convicting her of "crimes" she has not committed.

Simply because the professors do not like her point of view on homosexuality or her faith or whatever it is that they do not like about her... maybe she has a big mouth... is not grounds for allowing the university not to fulfill its side of the contract.

That is just plain wrong in my book.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

None. I just prefer accuracy.

You've got a poknt. Most of us don't go to Pride parades. We just live our lives.

Not according to the media....you guys are all out there busting your butts in extravagent costumes with feathers and sequins and interesting special effects, while in your spare time you're busy making sure that your agenda is passed at every political level perverting our country's children by forcing them to learn about those who are different from Wonderbread, Mom, the Flag, and Apple Pie and before you know it dontcha know NAMBLA will be an official political party and beatiality and non-biblical bigamy the rule of the land


I think I managed to cover all the issues in one run-on sentance














On a serious note, you are preaching to the choir. Most people do not define themselves by their sexuality.

You forgot hot dogs.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Education does not equal forced restructuring of knowledge.

Education is the presentation of knowledge not the realignment of thought.

Education is the process whereby individuals are taught theory. It does not mean that they have to agree with said theories.

Immie

how is educating her any different from remedial reading for someone who is failing?

Because they are talking about "educating" her in regards to her views on homosexuality according to the articles.

Immie

 

[Newby]

That's what will be determined in court. Keeton escalated her acadmic problem to the point of a lawsuit. Who wants to hire a litigous counselor. Who will she sue next?

Oh now we're bashing her for filing a lawsuit ? How about we take away all her civil rights ?

Keeton is free to sue whoever she wants. Her track record of controversy will follow her into her career. It's hardly 'bashing' to point that out.


ACA Section A-4, b states that counselors should avoid imposing their "values attitudes and beliefs" on others.

And she has not done that in a professional capacity. End of story.

 

[Immanuel]

Read the ethics.

I have.
You and Sky are touting a dishonest premise, which is that the ethics require an affirmation of LIFESTYLE. That is a lie. The ethics require affirmation of people regardless of their lifestyles. I have yet to meet a counselor who is required to tell someone "Hey, it's great you're gay! I support your lifestyle!"

It's ridiculous. Besides being dishonest and prejudicial on your part.
But that's not surprising.

Geesh.

I have posted the ethics so many times and now I can't find them. The ethics read that you're willing to affirm the lives of your clients even though their values may be different from your own.

Keeton thinks her biblical morality is appropriate for ALL people. That's the problem.

Affirm the lives not the lifestyles.

There is a difference.

I can be a friend and affirm the life of my alcoholic friend without telling him that having another drink will be good for him.

I can affirm the life of my mother who smokes without lighting her next cigarette for her.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

Oh now we're bashing her for filing a lawsuit ? How about we take away all her civil rights ?

Keeton is free to sue whoever she wants. Her track record of controversy will follow her into her career. It's hardly 'bashing' to point that out.


ACA Section A-4, b states that counselors should avoid imposing their "values attitudes and beliefs" on others.

And she has not done that in a professional capacity. End of story.

She has to pass her education program. IMO she should have just sucked it up and graduated.

 

[Immanuel]

None of us know the full story because it hasn't come out yet.

What Keeton wants is an excemption from professional standards due to her religous beliefs.

She wants special treatment.

Wrong!

She wants to be allowed to believe what she believes.

She has not indicated that she would not abide by the professional standards.

Immie

That's what will be determined in court. Keeton escalated her acadmic problem to the point of initiating a lawsuit. Who wants to hire a litigous counselor. Who will she sue next?

That is an entirely different question and does not belong in this thread.

Immie