Tolerance? Not for Christians...

[Sky Dancer]

Actually, that was not a requirement - it was one of several suggestions for ways in which she could learn more about the gay community.

What harm is there in attending a gay pride parade?

None. I just prefer accuracy.

You've got a poknt. Most of us don't go to Pride parades. We just live our lives.

 

[dilloduck]

Sorry, that's not to equate homosexuality with rape, just the issue of people trying to pull their morality into the picture, I think it's a good analogy. Part of the degree process is demonstrating the capacity to remain objective and professional.

She should have faked it and got a pass like the rest of the bigoted people who will graduate. I can just imagine a liberal counselor setting aside all of his/her biases to help a conservative Christian client.

I wouldn't counsel a conservative Christian. I would refer to another counselor.

Obviously you need diversity training

 

[Sky Dancer]

You are incorrect in this. They are talking about diversity training. They told her she could continue if she went through "remediation training" = diversity training and they want her to attend a gay pride parade.

They are not insisting that other students attend these events.

As for your comment about pre-med, if passing those courses is required for the program for all students and someone does not pass those courses then he should be expelled. That is not the case here. Here the only indication we have as to what is going on, is that the school wants to segregate her and force her to change her beliefs or lose every dime she has paid into the program and get nothing in return.

Immie

Is her faith in Christianity so weak that she would lose it going to a gay pride parade or taking diversity training? We don't know how Keeton behaved in class but it must have been mighty extreme for the professors to have gone this route.

Who knows about her faith? It really does not matter whether her faith is weak or not. The point is they want her to under go extra curricular activities that are not required of other students.

I really do not care if the professors agree with her or not. That is immaterial. I don't agree with her, but I respect her right to hold beliefs differing from my own just as I respect both your right and Jillian's to hold different faiths than my own. If she cannot perform in a professional manner then she should not be licensed, however, it is not up to the university to license her. It is up to the state.

No, we don't know that her behavior was all that extreme. It might also be that she was a vocal pain in the ass and her professors simply do not like the attitude she has given them. Maybe she had Straight A's (I doubt it or they would have mentioned it in the article) so far and there is simply no way they can expel her on academic grounds so they have chosen this route instead. That is speculation, but as plausible as your "extreme" example.

Immie

They are trying to get her to complete her studies. You don't get a remediation program without being on academic probation.

What caused her to get in so much trouble? Her own words and actions.

You can't graduate from a progra, if you don't meet the requirements. Keeton attitude is unprofessional.

 

[Sky Dancer]

She should have faked it and got a pass like the rest of the bigoted people who will graduate. I can just imagine a liberal counselor setting aside all of his/her biases to help a conservative Christian client.

I wouldn't counsel a conservative Christian. I would refer to another counselor.

Obviously you need diversity training

Obviously I do. I am biased against some conservative Christians.

 

[Immanuel]

persecuting? what a terrible misnomer. is is 'persecution' for a medical student to study biology? chemistry? or should he whine if he's tossed from a pre-med program if he says the world is 6,000 years old?

no one is talking about 'diversity training', they're talking about the radical deciding she should pick and choose what she feels like from the course requirements.

like i said earlier, is a muslim being *persecuted* if he gets fired from a butcher shop for refusing to work with pork?

You are incorrect in this. They are talking about diversity training. They told her she could continue if she went through "remediation training" = diversity training and they want her to attend a gay pride parade.

They are not insisting that other students attend these events.

As for your comment about pre-med, if passing those courses is required for the program for all students and someone does not pass those courses then he should be expelled. That is not the case here. Here the only indication we have as to what is going on, is that the school wants to segregate her and force her to change her beliefs or lose every dime she has paid into the program and get nothing in return.

Immie

they only told her to go for remediation because she refused to complete her coursework.

would it be terrible for her to learn not to discriminate?

you can think what you want about this extremist trying to impose her agenda on the school SHE chose and no one forced her to go to...

i think she's out...

and so will any court hearing the case.

I do not think she is the extremist. I think it is the two professors and the administrator with whom she has butted heads that are the extremists who want to force their own beliefs on others.

There are no indications whatsoever that she refused to complete the coursework. This remediation training appears to have been placed upon her because of her beliefs not because of her coursework.

Do I think learning not to discriminate is a bad thing? No, I do not, but I think forced re-education is a terrible thing.

I think she is out as well. Regardless of how the court rules, she will not pass another course at that university. They will make sure of that.

Immie

 

[Againsheila]

There is no evidence of that. You are basing it solely upon her religion.

And that's illegal.

Keeton is unwilling to keep her religious beliefs to herself, and that is against professional counseling standards.

How do you know that? Because she's spoken to a friend and her professor? When was a law passed that we weren't allowed to express our religious beliefs to our classmates and professors? The is nothing that requires anyone to keep their religious beliefs, or non-beliefs to themselves. Now speaking about them while she's counseling someone is something else entirely.

You do realize that Christians are only the first, don't you? We won't be the last. This is a dangerous topic. When we stop allowing people to profess their beliefs in public, we have lost our freedoms that our forefathers specifically stated we have, "freedom of religion". How more specific can you get?

 

[dilloduck]

I wouldn't counsel a conservative Christian. I would refer to another counselor.

Obviously you need diversity training

Obviously I do. I am biased against conservative Christians.

and as a Buddhist you have a great time baiting and bashing them--odd

 

[Sky Dancer]

You are incorrect in this. They are talking about diversity training. They told her she could continue if she went through "remediation training" = diversity training and they want her to attend a gay pride parade.

They are not insisting that other students attend these events.

As for your comment about pre-med, if passing those courses is required for the program for all students and someone does not pass those courses then he should be expelled. That is not the case here. Here the only indication we have as to what is going on, is that the school wants to segregate her and force her to change her beliefs or lose every dime she has paid into the program and get nothing in return.

Immie

they only told her to go for remediation because she refused to complete her coursework.

would it be terrible for her to learn not to discriminate?

you can think what you want about this extremist trying to impose her agenda on the school SHE chose and no one forced her to go to...

i think she's out...

and so will any court hearing the case.

I do not think she is the extremist. I think it is the two professors and the administrator with whom she has butted heads that are the extremists who want to force their own beliefs on others.

There are no indications whatsoever that she refused to complete the coursework. This remediation training appears to have been placed upon her because of her beliefs not because of her coursework.

Do I think learning not to discriminate is a bad thing? No, I do not, but I think forced re-education is a terrible thing.

I think she is out as well. Regardless of how the court rules, she will not pass another course at that university. They will make sure of that.

Immie

I disgree Immie. I think if she took diversity training she would pass her course.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Obviously you need diversity training

Obviously I do. I am biased against conservative Christians.

and as a Buddhist you have a great time baiting and bashing them--odd

Really?

Is that what you think?

 

[Sky Dancer]

There is no evidence of that. You are basing it solely upon her religion.

And that's illegal.

Keeton is unwilling to keep her religious beliefs to herself, and that is against professional counseling standards.

How do you know that? Because she's spoken to a friend and her professor? When was a law passed that we weren't allowed to express our religious beliefs to our classmates and professors? The is nothing that requires anyone to keep their religious beliefs, or non-beliefs to themselves. Now speaking about them while she's counseling someone is something else entirely.

You do realize that Christians are only the first, don't you? We won't be the last. This is a dangerous topic. When we stop allowing people to profess their beliefs in public, we have lost our freedoms that our forefathers specifically stated we have, "freedom of religion". How more specific can you get?

None of us know the full story because it hasn't come out yet.

What Keeton wants is an excemption from professional standards due to her religous beliefs.

She wants special treatment.

 

[AllieBaba]

She should have faked it and got a pass like the rest of the bigoted people who will graduate. I can just imagine a liberal counselor setting aside all of his/her biases to help a conservative Christian client.

I wouldn't counsel a conservative Christian. I would refer to another counselor.

Obviously you need diversity training

And to have her degree pulled.

 

[AllieBaba]

The only "standards" that she is seeking to be exempted from are the ones that the university has added to her requirement to graduate that are not being forced upon all students i.e. diversity training and attendance at a gay pride parade.

Immie

No - the standards required by the program itself are the ones she wishes to be exempt from via lawsuit.

All of this was posted by Sky through out this thread in considerable detail, with links.

The school, in order to maintain it's accredidation for that degree must meet the following:

From just page 5 of the 2009 Standards of The Council for Accreditation of Counseling and Related Educational Programs (CACREP)…..

I. The Academic Unit
P. The program faculty conducts a systematic developmental assessment of each student’s progress throughout the program, including consideration of the student’s academic performance, professional development, and personal development. Consistent with established institutional due process policy and the American Counseling Association’s (ACA) code of ethics and other relevant codes of ethics and standards of practice, if evaluations indicate that a student is not appropriate for the program, faculty members help facilitate the student’s transition out of the program and, if possible, into a more appropriate area of study.

As Sky already posted, ASU, specifically states:

The ASU Counselor Education program is committed to ensuring that graduates both understand and can fulfill their obligations to set personal values aside and empower clients to solve their own problems. As counselor educators in a CACREP accredited program, faculty have a duty to ensure that those completing our program will affirm and abide by these ethical codes in all counseling situations.

The counseling profession requires its practitioners to recognize that people set and adhere to their own moral compass. The professional counselor's job is to help clients clarify their current feelings and behaviors and to help them reach the goals that they have determine for themselves, not to dictate what those goals should be or what morals they should possess, or what values they should adopt."

Among the guidelines she rejects or wishes exempt from are:

" Each person has the right to be respected, be treated with dignity and have access to a comprehensive school counseling program that advocates for and affirms all students from diverse populations regardless of ethnic/racial status, age, economic status, special needs, English as a second language or other language group, immigration status, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity/expression[/Bn, family type, religious/spiritual identity and appearance……..

Also, http://www.usmessageboard.com/2560136-post167.html

Still not right.
She is being required not to affirm the clients, but to affirm their LIFESTYLE.

Big diff. But I don't expect a bigot to understand.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I wouldn't counsel a conservative Christian. I would refer to another counselor.

Obviously you need diversity training

And to have her degree pulled.

Too late now. I get to counsel whoever I want.

 

[Coyote]

You're missing the point, Sky. She shouldn't be required to do things that other students aren't required to do, BASED UPON HER FAITH ONLY.

No. It's not based on her faith only. It's based on her stated attitudes towards a certain group of people and her inability to abide by some of the standards both the school and her profession require.

I would imagine that other students, who have similar attitudes, and openly express them would be required to do the same.

Do you have any evidence that she is singled out as the only person to go through a "remediation program"?

And I don't believe it was even that stuff that she balked at. It was being required to promise to AFFIRM homosexuality to her patients. That's NOT a requirement of a counselor, it flies in the face of her faith, and it isn't required of other students.

Read the friggin' requirements! They've been repeated again and again and again. If she is counseling a homosexual client, she must affirm it - she can not pass judgements on it, regardless of her personal beliefs.

ASU specifically states:

The counseling profession requires its practitioners to recognize that people set and adhere to their own moral compass. The professional counselor's job is to help clients clarify their current feelings and behaviors and to help them reach the goals that they have determine for themselves, not to dictate what those goals should be or what morals they should possess, or what values they should adopt."

and the ASCA (the association for school counselers, which is the program she is in and who's guidelines are included in ASU's program:
" Each person has the right to be respected, be treated with dignity and have access to a comprehensive school counseling program that advocates for and affirms all students from diverse populations regardless of ethnic/racial status, age, economic status, special needs, English as a second language or other language group, immigration status, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity/expression[/Bn, family type, religious/spiritual identity and appearance…….."​

This is like asking black students to attend special classes (aka, segregation) based on the fact that they're black.

Umh. No. You really just don't get it Allie. If a potential black graduate student were to openly admit to judgemental or racist views on whites to the extent that the school was worried about his ability to adhere to the codes required by the profession - he certainly would be required to sign on to a remediation program and should.

Or asking gay students to "affirm" the lifestyle of patients who admit they bash gays. It's the same thing exactly. Just because you happen to agree with this particular bias doesn't make it ok.

That makes no sense. First - professional standards of the varied organizatons that govern counseling all state that homosexuality isn't a "life style" it's a state of being so that is a lousy example. Second, yes - a gay counselor, in the school program, will have to be able to show he can set aside his personal feelings about the individual and maintain an atmosphere where the client feels comfortable and able to talk and that means affirming things he may not agree with. And it means not imposing a judgemental standard.

It applies to anyone in the program because it's the core of what counseling is. If they can not do that they do not belong in the program.

The counseling profession requires its practitioners to recognize that people set and adhere to their own moral compass. The professional counselor's job is to help clients clarify their current feelings and behaviors and to help them reach the goals that they have determine for themselves, not to dictate what those goals should be or what morals they should possess, or what values they should adopt."
​

 

[Againsheila]

Since when are counselors required to cite their support any choice a client makes? That is not something that is required of any counselor. They are requiring it of THIS student because she's a Christian and made the horrific mistake of openly espousing Christian values.

The school should lose all financial support from the state and the feds.

Umm...no. Are you a counseler? Part of the profession involves seperating your own personal feelings from those of your client. As a profession, it also does not cast value or moral judgements on the client.

Sky Dancer made it pretty clear (as she has throughout this debate):

The Preamble to the ASCA document additionally states that Professional school counselors . . . subscrib[e] to the following tenets of professional
responsibility:

· Each person has the right to be respected, be treated with dignity and have access to a comprehensive school counseling program that advocates for and
affirms all students from diverse populations regardless of ethnic/racial status, age, economic status, special needs, English as a second language or other
language group, immigration status, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity/expression, family type, religious/spiritual identity and appearance.

Keeton has stated she doesn't respect homosexuality. She condemns it as wrong and cannot affirm the lifestyle of gay and lesbian clients.

Ms. Keeton should have been well aware of the tenets of her chosen profession by this time yet she chose to continue. Personally, I have an issue the use of animal testing in such industries as cosmetics. Would it be appropriate for me to go into a program that involves animal subjects, and then complain that it is against my belief system when the requirements of my program requires me to handle those animals? I wouldn't think so.

In fact, I don't understand why, if her beliefs were so strong that she couldn't follow the neccessary tenets - she did not go into a religious counseling vocation which would have been more appropriate for her goals and beliefs?

Why does she, and her supporters think that the entire profession must be remodeled to accommodate her particular belief system?

I'm sorry, but you guys continue to dishonestly insist that she cannot behave as a professional.

The code of ethics basically says do no harm, it does not say that one must affirm homosexuality. I have not seen one thing from her where she states that she will condemn such students. She simply says she will not tell them that it is okay to be gay.

Immie

Nor is it her job to do so, or any counselors job to do so. They are suppose to help people discuss their problems and make their OWN decisions about their problems. Basically "How do you feel about that?" "How does that make you feel" etc. If they are perfectly fine with who they are, whey the heck are they going to counseling in the first place?

Counselors are not suppose to make judgments FOR people, they are suppose to help them make those judgments on their own.

Otherwise, they might as well go to Bob Newhart

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1g3ENYxg9k]YouTube - Bob Newhart-Stop It!![/ame]

 

[Steerpike]

... Jennifer Keeton, who has sued Augusta State University to keep from getting expelled for not repudiating her statements about homosexuality. Keeton expressed her biblical perspective on the subject in and out of class while working toward a degree in counseling, and the school mandated a “remediation plan” that appears to have required her to renounce her Christian doctrine in order to gain a diploma from the school. The school has responded that a bias against homosexuality would disqualify Keeton from certification, a position that would put most Christians in Keeton’s position.

Sounds like a pretty clear Constitutional violation to me. This is a State school, after all.

 

[Immanuel]

Ms Keeton is clearly in need of diversity training. Diversity training introduces the participant to cultural values other than their own.

Maybe Keeton needs to study with this gal instead of trying to make in a secular counseling program:

"Cindy Jacobs claims the power to cast out gay demons. During an evening ceremony at the conference Jacobs conducted a mass exorcism, casting out not only “spirits” of homosexuality but also spirits of pornography, addiction, lust, bisexuality, and perversion."
“Gay Demon” Exorcist Cindy Jacobs To Share Stage With Virginia GOP Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli SpeakEasy

Why is Ms. Keeton in need of diversity training?

Simply because she does not agree with your point of view?

Maybe some people on this site would benefit from "diversity training"... wait, there is no maybe about that.

Immie

IMO everyone can benefit from diversity training. One of the things it does is help a person look at their own biases.

Obviously, I have biases myself.

Keeton is biased against homosexuality and she wouldn't shut up about it in class. She brought her bias to the faculty's attention repeatedly.

I don't know why it seems so threatening to a supposedly strong Christian to attend diversity training.

My guess is her faith is weak.

I don't agree with you.

Personally, I think "forced re-education" is a tragedy. You simply cannot force someone to believe what you want them to believe. The whole idea is fascist in my humble opinion. This is why I call this brainwashing.

She doesn't want to be there. They are putting her into diversity (aka political correctness) training at the barrel of a gun and they are wrong for doing so.

A person has to want to learn in order to learn. It cannot be forced upon them.

And you all are jumping the gun, in your repeated claims that she will not maintain a professional demeanor in a counseling session.

She has stated her beliefs to professors and classmates. That is a far cry from an authoritative counselor forcing her beliefs upon a client.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Sorry, that's not to equate homosexuality with rape, just the issue of people trying to pull their morality into the picture, I think it's a good analogy. Part of the degree process is demonstrating the capacity to remain objective and professional.

She should have faked it and got a pass like the rest of the bigoted people who will graduate. I can just imagine a liberal counselor setting aside all of his/her biases to help a conservative Christian client.

I wouldn't counsel a conservative Christian. I would refer to another counselor.

Really? You surprise me.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

She should have faked it and got a pass like the rest of the bigoted people who will graduate. I can just imagine a liberal counselor setting aside all of his/her biases to help a conservative Christian client.

I wouldn't counsel a conservative Christian. I would refer to another counselor.

Really? You surprise me.

Immie

Truth is I counsel one Christian woman but we don't discuss her faith. She knows I'm gay. I assume if that was an issue for her she would go elsewhere.

Not all Christians are homophobes.

 

[Coyote]

The only "standards" that she is seeking to be exempted from are the ones that the university has added to her requirement to graduate that are not being forced upon all students i.e. diversity training and attendance at a gay pride parade.

Immie

No - the standards required by the program itself are the ones she wishes to be exempt from via lawsuit.

All of this was posted by Sky through out this thread in considerable detail, with links.

The school, in order to maintain it's accredidation for that degree must meet the following:


As Sky already posted, ASU, specifically states:



Among the guidelines she rejects or wishes exempt from are:

" Each person has the right to be respected, be treated with dignity and have access to a comprehensive school counseling program that advocates for and affirms all students from diverse populations regardless of ethnic/racial status, age, economic status, special needs, English as a second language or other language group, immigration status, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity/expression[/Bn, family type, religious/spiritual identity and appearance……..

Also, http://www.usmessageboard.com/2560136-post167.html

Still not right.
She is being required not to affirm the clients, but to affirm their LIFESTYLE.

Big diff. But I don't expect a bigot to understand.

No. All applicable standards to that profession agree that sexual orientation is not a "lifestyle" but a state of being. You can disagree with that all you want, but at this time that is what governs the profession. As such, the affirmation is not the lifestyle, but the person's sexual identity.