To those saying flipping burgers or dunking fries deserves 15.00 per hour...

[initforme]

If no kids app!IED for those jobs that would be awesome. It would be magical to see a mcpukes just struggle to find any help. But that will never happen because they're are aloit oif desperate people!e willing to dish out processed fake food. Keeps the insurance premiums high as people are dumb enough to put that garbage in their bodies.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Bottom line here: Jobs are worth more than employers are paying, but rather than employers paying their employees a realistic wage, the employer passes the burden to the taxpayer. So, taxpayers are making up the difference between insults you think are wages and the amount it takes to live.

Why do you keep making welfare an employer problem instead of a government problem? Employers don't put people on welfare--government puts people on welfare. So blame the government for it.

Jobs are worth what the employer and employee agree they are worth. The employer offers X pay to do X job, and the applicant either agrees to the wages and benefits or not. So if the employer and employee can't decide on what the job is worth, then who can if you are so against government forcing employers to pay more?

While nobody has a right to welfare, it exists and the government is going to utilize that to their advantage. I'm taking it all into account and reframing the whole issue. The objective is to incentivize employers to pay more in wages and employees need to be incentivized to go out, get a job, and try to better themselves.

Lower wages is what does incentivize an employee TO do better; at least it would if government stayed out of it with their welfare. I'm by far any success story, but what kept me going through life to finally end up where I'm at today are those lower paying jobs. It kept me trying to learn new things to better myself to be worth more money to an employer. It kept me trying new things to earn money.

 

[beagle9]

In the course of this thread I have not advocated NOR supported an laws that would impose a requirement that an employer pay an employee any kind of wage. Giving employers a chance to reduce their taxes by more than half (and it is clearly THEIR choice) is not socialism in any way, shape, fashion or form.

Great, then why not offer such tax breaks to employers that provide employees with healthcare insurance instead? I'd be all for that.

They are the ones against a free market. BTW, why protect jobs if you're only going to force people to work for slave wages?

Can you name me one person who is "forced" to work for anybody for any wage? I've had several jobs in my life, and nobody ever forced me to take any of them. I took those jobs by my own choice.

. Ray, Ray, Ray... Your right no one is forced, but what can be done (is that very smart people can read a situation of an employee), and it can be capitalized upon in that situation by using it to keep the person right where they want the person to be, and to work to lesson the chances of opportunity for that person.. This is usually done in order to keep the person working without an ability to freely choose to move on, and especially if there is no viable options to become better educated due to time constraints that are caused by working 14 hours a day in some cases or to have better financial circumstances come their way all due to (fair treatment), in which would release them being there by design if was the case in which they couldn't see so easily..

 

[initforme]

Lesson learned....don't settle for those jobs. Do not apply. And go to college. Then you have a shot at surviving decently.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

In the course of this thread I have not advocated NOR supported an laws that would impose a requirement that an employer pay an employee any kind of wage. Giving employers a chance to reduce their taxes by more than half (and it is clearly THEIR choice) is not socialism in any way, shape, fashion or form.

Great, then why not offer such tax breaks to employers that provide employees with healthcare insurance instead? I'd be all for that.

They are the ones against a free market. BTW, why protect jobs if you're only going to force people to work for slave wages?

Can you name me one person who is "forced" to work for anybody for any wage? I've had several jobs in my life, and nobody ever forced me to take any of them. I took those jobs by my own choice.

. Ray, Ray, Ray... Your right no one is forced, but what can be done (is that very smart people can read a situation of an employee), and it can be capitalized upon in that situation by using it to keep the person right where they want the person to be, and to work to lesson the chances of opportunity for that person.. This is usually done in order to keep the person working without an ability to freely choose to move on, and especially if there is no viable options to become better educated due to time constraints that are caused by working 14 hours a day in some cases or to have better financial circumstances come their way all due to (fair treatment), in which would release them being there by design if was the case in which they couldn't see so easily..

I don't buy into anything you said. I've never seen it happen and I never heard of anybody who knows of it happening. The only control my employer has over me is what time to come in and how many days I work. That's it. it's the same way with every working person.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

You can get a degree or certifications from prison as it now stands. It's not required they go however if they are not motivated to learn, they won't. If they want to get out early then they will do what they need to, to get released but no guarantee they will go straight after they are released. It's a start however, I am not confident that the motivation to change will be there. You can work a day as a welder make $280 or you can make a five minute drug deal and make $2000 and then go home and smoke weed for the rest of the day.

What you're saying may hold true for federal prison, but it is not that way in the state prisons.

People become better criminals in prison because all they have to do is swap stories and network with each other until they get released. If a man were working eight hours a day and in his spare time learning how to succeed on the outside, a lot of them will take the training and rehabilitation opportunities.

When they're spending 12 hours a day working and studying, they will tend to get away from the criminal mindset. Couple that with the knowledge that a three strike you're out policy that will mandate they do all their sentence upon a third conviction AND at least a year, plus additional time if they break the rules in prison, ... if that don't scare it out of them, they will rot in prison while those who want to become productive will be given a second chance.

There are several states that have schooling in prison. California, Maine, Washington, Texas, New York and Colorado to name a couple.

Training, educating and so on are not guarantees, 7 out 10 re-offend and 5 out of ten wind up back in prison. Just the way it is. Not a knock on your idea however that is the reality of that group. Easy to tow the line in prison when everything is provided, tougher when you have to make it on your own.

I also think about the message, want a free education? Don't join the service, commit a crime!

Again, you keep harping on stuff that the government tried that did not work. My experiences are not with the government. Knock the idea all you like. Until it's been tried, it has not failed. Uncle Scam has his ideas; those with experience have theirs.

I think Papa makes a good point. Why do you believe that rewarding failure and bad behavior is a path to success?

Be good citizen, pay your taxes, vote every election, keep out of trouble, it's up to you to make yourself something.

Be a criminal, don't work a legitimate job, get locked up, we will train you for a career in something.

"Folks, when you promote irresponsibility, don't be surprised when you end up with more irresponsible people."
Rush Limbaugh

. Let me guess Ray, you are that perfect person who comes from that perfect family that had no members including yourself, that had gotten off of the rails somehow, and so because you or a family member gave a crap about you or them, then they or you stood in the fire to help them or they helped you to somehow get back onto the straight and narrow right ?? Everything in life is suppose to be the same as how you would want to be treated or how you are to treat others. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". This goes for anyone.

I have no idea how anything I said has to do with your response. Yes, people go get off the track, and yes, they may rely on friends and family. So I don't know what that has to do with prisons providing vocational education.

 

[beagle9]

Again, the program I'm discussing has never been tried. We are just now beginning to implement it here:

Georgia opens first prison charter school

Education at heart of Georgia’s next wave of change in criminal justice

You can get a degree or certifications from prison as it now stands. It's not required they go however if they are not motivated to learn, they won't. If they want to get out early then they will do what they need to, to get released but no guarantee they will go straight after they are released. It's a start however, I am not confident that the motivation to change will be there. You can work a day as a welder make $280 or you can make a five minute drug deal and make $2000 and then go home and smoke weed for the rest of the day.

What you're saying may hold true for federal prison, but it is not that way in the state prisons.

People become better criminals in prison because all they have to do is swap stories and network with each other until they get released. If a man were working eight hours a day and in his spare time learning how to succeed on the outside, a lot of them will take the training and rehabilitation opportunities.

When they're spending 12 hours a day working and studying, they will tend to get away from the criminal mindset. Couple that with the knowledge that a three strike you're out policy that will mandate they do all their sentence upon a third conviction AND at least a year, plus additional time if they break the rules in prison, ... if that don't scare it out of them, they will rot in prison while those who want to become productive will be given a second chance.

There are several states that have schooling in prison. California, Maine, Washington, Texas, New York and Colorado to name a couple.

Training, educating and so on are not guarantees, 7 out 10 re-offend and 5 out of ten wind up back in prison. Just the way it is. Not a knock on your idea however that is the reality of that group. Easy to tow the line in prison when everything is provided, tougher when you have to make it on your own.

I also think about the message, want a free education? Don't join the service, commit a crime!

Again, you keep harping on stuff that the government tried that did not work. My experiences are not with the government. Knock the idea all you like. Until it's been tried, it has not failed. Uncle Scam has his ideas; those with experience have theirs.

They have schooling in several states. I hope it works but I for reasons stated don’t believe it will.

. All depends, but hopefully for everyone's sake it will work.

 

[beagle9]

What you're saying may hold true for federal prison, but it is not that way in the state prisons.

People become better criminals in prison because all they have to do is swap stories and network with each other until they get released. If a man were working eight hours a day and in his spare time learning how to succeed on the outside, a lot of them will take the training and rehabilitation opportunities.

When they're spending 12 hours a day working and studying, they will tend to get away from the criminal mindset. Couple that with the knowledge that a three strike you're out policy that will mandate they do all their sentence upon a third conviction AND at least a year, plus additional time if they break the rules in prison, ... if that don't scare it out of them, they will rot in prison while those who want to become productive will be given a second chance.

There are several states that have schooling in prison. California, Maine, Washington, Texas, New York and Colorado to name a couple.

Training, educating and so on are not guarantees, 7 out 10 re-offend and 5 out of ten wind up back in prison. Just the way it is. Not a knock on your idea however that is the reality of that group. Easy to tow the line in prison when everything is provided, tougher when you have to make it on your own.

I also think about the message, want a free education? Don't join the service, commit a crime!

Again, you keep harping on stuff that the government tried that did not work. My experiences are not with the government. Knock the idea all you like. Until it's been tried, it has not failed. Uncle Scam has his ideas; those with experience have theirs.

I think Papa makes a good point. Why do you believe that rewarding failure and bad behavior is a path to success?

Be good citizen, pay your taxes, vote every election, keep out of trouble, it's up to you to make yourself something.

Be a criminal, don't work a legitimate job, get locked up, we will train you for a career in something.

"Folks, when you promote irresponsibility, don't be surprised when you end up with more irresponsible people."
Rush Limbaugh

. Let me guess Ray, you are that perfect person who comes from that perfect family that had no members including yourself, that had gotten off of the rails somehow, and so because you or a family member gave a crap about you or them, then they or you stood in the fire to help them or they helped you to somehow get back onto the straight and narrow right ?? Everything in life is suppose to be the same as how you would want to be treated or how you are to treat others. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". This goes for anyone.

I have no idea how anything I said has to do with your response. Yes, people go get off the track, and yes, they may rely on friends and family. So I don't know what that has to do with prisons providing vocational education.

It has everything to do with what you say here Ray... Think son.

 

[beagle9]

In the course of this thread I have not advocated NOR supported an laws that would impose a requirement that an employer pay an employee any kind of wage. Giving employers a chance to reduce their taxes by more than half (and it is clearly THEIR choice) is not socialism in any way, shape, fashion or form.

Great, then why not offer such tax breaks to employers that provide employees with healthcare insurance instead? I'd be all for that.

They are the ones against a free market. BTW, why protect jobs if you're only going to force people to work for slave wages?

Can you name me one person who is "forced" to work for anybody for any wage? I've had several jobs in my life, and nobody ever forced me to take any of them. I took those jobs by my own choice.

. Ray, Ray, Ray... Your right no one is forced, but what can be done (is that very smart people can read a situation of an employee), and it can be capitalized upon in that situation by using it to keep the person right where they want the person to be, and to work to lesson the chances of opportunity for that person.. This is usually done in order to keep the person working without an ability to freely choose to move on, and especially if there is no viable options to become better educated due to time constraints that are caused by working 14 hours a day in some cases or to have better financial circumstances come their way all due to (fair treatment), in which would release them being there by design if was the case in which they couldn't see so easily..

I don't buy into anything you said. I've never seen it happen and I never heard of anybody who knows of it happening. The only control my employer has over me is what time to come in and how many days I work. That's it. it's the same way with every working person.

. Well could it be that you have never been at the levels needed to understand what I'm saying Ray ? I have been there Ray, and I have seen things Ray.

 

[Papageorgio]

You can get a degree or certifications from prison as it now stands. It's not required they go however if they are not motivated to learn, they won't. If they want to get out early then they will do what they need to, to get released but no guarantee they will go straight after they are released. It's a start however, I am not confident that the motivation to change will be there. You can work a day as a welder make $280 or you can make a five minute drug deal and make $2000 and then go home and smoke weed for the rest of the day.

What you're saying may hold true for federal prison, but it is not that way in the state prisons.

People become better criminals in prison because all they have to do is swap stories and network with each other until they get released. If a man were working eight hours a day and in his spare time learning how to succeed on the outside, a lot of them will take the training and rehabilitation opportunities.

When they're spending 12 hours a day working and studying, they will tend to get away from the criminal mindset. Couple that with the knowledge that a three strike you're out policy that will mandate they do all their sentence upon a third conviction AND at least a year, plus additional time if they break the rules in prison, ... if that don't scare it out of them, they will rot in prison while those who want to become productive will be given a second chance.

There are several states that have schooling in prison. California, Maine, Washington, Texas, New York and Colorado to name a couple.

Training, educating and so on are not guarantees, 7 out 10 re-offend and 5 out of ten wind up back in prison. Just the way it is. Not a knock on your idea however that is the reality of that group. Easy to tow the line in prison when everything is provided, tougher when you have to make it on your own.

I also think about the message, want a free education? Don't join the service, commit a crime!

Again, you keep harping on stuff that the government tried that did not work. My experiences are not with the government. Knock the idea all you like. Until it's been tried, it has not failed. Uncle Scam has his ideas; those with experience have theirs.

They have schooling in several states. I hope it works but I for reasons stated don’t believe it will.

. All depends, but hopefully for everyone's sake it will work.

It seems a lot better approach than taking away things like deserts, TV etc...

 

[Cecilie1200]

View attachment 164037

Even McDonald's acknowledges that their business was intended for children.
Holding businesses that are created with the employment of kids & college students responsible for the poor choices people make in life is wrong. If you're in your mid to late 20's or higher & working for minimum wage you have no one to blame but yourself. You're poor choices should not result in a 10.00 Big Mac or 4 dollar fry.

Prices go up even when wages don't..Derp...

How much did you place in the tip jar?

I've never seen a tip jar at a McDonald's..

Every McDonald's I've been in discourages tipping, even if one felt so inclined. They say they consider good service to be required of all their employees, not an "extra". *shrug*

 

[initforme]

Its hard to believe any American with a working brain cell would ever buy that stuff. But I guess it says something about this nation.

 

[Cecilie1200]

View attachment 164037

Even McDonald's acknowledges that their business was intended for children.
Holding businesses that are created with the employment of kids & college students responsible for the poor choices people make in life is wrong. If you're in your mid to late 20's or higher & working for minimum wage you have no one to blame but yourself. You're poor choices should not result in a 10.00 Big Mac or 4 dollar fry.

Fast food workers need a union just like Wal-Mart workers i know so many older adults in these jobs working two full time jobs just trying to survive.

You need to find a better quality of friends. I don't know ANYONE who even works a minimum-wage job, let alone two "just trying to survive". Even my millennial children qualify for better than that, and I'd be flat fricking embarrassed to be friends with any loser who's my own age and hasn't left entry-level, unskilled work behind.

Look, I'm not saying that gainful, legal employment of any type is shameful, per se. It's not that life doesn't sometimes kick you in the balls and leave you digging out from under a mountain of shit. And if your response to that is to lace on your boots, grab a shovel, and get digging by way of honest employment and hard work, then God bless you.

That being said, I am highly suspicious of anyone who is over the age of 25 and can't do any better than unskilled, entry-level, minimum-wage employment. And I am REALLY skeptical of anyone who knows "so many" people like that. Really? Where in the Hell are you hanging out? Literally every friend I have has an education and/or previous job experience that jumps them above that, simply by virtue of being older than 25.

 

[Cecilie1200]

View attachment 164037

Even McDonald's acknowledges that their business was intended for children.
Holding businesses that are created with the employment of kids & college students responsible for the poor choices people make in life is wrong. If you're in your mid to late 20's or higher & working for minimum wage you have no one to blame but yourself. You're poor choices should not result in a 10.00 Big Mac or 4 dollar fry.

Fast food workers need a union just like Wal-Mart workers i know so many older adults in these jobs working two full time jobs just trying to survive.

Unions are still pushing a 19th Century definition of "a job".. They never have been concerned with careers. Very short term gains for their members. A "job" in the 21st century ain't nothing like "union rules". It requires multi-tasking, flexibility and in a lot of cases -- continuing education.

Ain't got a problem with the union concept. But if that's how you HELP folks in endangered low wage jobs -- Lord help those folks reject that kind of help...

And I am again skeptical of anyone who is in a fast-food job long enough to be contemplating unionizing it. Any thinking, self-respecting adult would be looking to climb the job ladder out of there as fast as possible, not looking around and thinking about how to make it into a cozier long-term nest.

 

[harmonica]

they get can't even do this simple job--they get my orders wrong a lot !! and they want more for doing a crappy job?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Lesson learned....don't settle for those jobs. Do not apply. And go to college. Then you have a shot at surviving decently.

"Go to college" is excellent advice as far as it goes, but it should really be followed up with ". . . or trade school or some other adult education, and for God's sake, study something useful and employable!" If you're going to spend tens of thousands of dollars - or more - on a degree in womyns' studies or modern South African spirit pottery or some such, don't even bother. You're better off being the best French fry guy you can be and hoping to become manager.

 

[beagle9]

I came onto this thread to discuss the indefensible attitude that some people have toward paying their employees a realistic wage. I dare not say fair wage, minimum wage, and am even cautious about saying livable wage.

This issue is not about right versus left; it is about right versus wrong. When we have poseurs wanting to get personal, but lacking the brains to have a civil discussion nor the balls to back up their bloviating bullshit, then the conversation must be considered over.

Oh, the discussion aint' over yet. A rational response to your "proposal" which you THINK should be an obvious solution to safety nets and welfare is that --- making folks COMFORTABLE in endangered menial jobs is actually immoral and has some very obvious NEGATIVE consequences to the long term welfare of the people involved in your altruistic spending of other people's money..

It's immoral, because you are simply promoting THE JOB and not THE PERSON. By making them comfortable in jobs subject to extinction thru technology, automation or transformation to the web. The focus should be on WHO is ELIGIBLE for inflated wage jobs at the very bottom of the work force. IMO -- only folks who are currently pursuing continuing or higher education should be eligible for min wage jobs. With some exceptions for seniors and the mentally challenged. THAT WAY -- they have a trajectory in the workforce pyramid. A GED would qualify. As would vocational training or comm. College.

Lots of unintended SEVERE negative consequences to promoting jobs to "living wage". Inner city drop-out rates are embarrassing and atrocious. Most of the kids want OUT of their crappy home life and to leave abusive situations. If you dangle $15/hr to flip burgers in front of them -- you're dooming MORE OF THEM to a life of disenfranchisement from market labor. Schools wouldn't be able to KEEP them inside their doors.

That's not progress on "ending slavery".. That's a boat ride directly into slavery. Although I dread using your slavery analogy at all.

. You seem to be of the impression that giving workers a cost of living wage somehow will destroy them, but is that a realistic way of looking at what would actually happen or is it just a form of protectionism or made up excuses in order to stop the bottom from having any increases at all, and especially while stuck in a job or circumstance in their life that doesn't allow them to leave that job. ?? Is this all due to the circumstances that might be beyond ones control in their special set of circumstances yet they are punished for their circumstances in life or exploited for them ?? At what point does their work ethic and etc. play a part ??

 

[beagle9]

they get can't even do this simple job--they get my orders wrong a lot !! and they want more for doing a crappy job?

. Hey ya get what you pay for, and in your case the corporation suffers you because the pay doesn't attract a better employee to service you correctly for the loyalty you might give them. Do corps want it only one way, and that's their way. ??? So to hell with the customer's that helped to make them eh ??

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Lesson learned....don't settle for those jobs. Do not apply. And go to college. Then you have a shot at surviving decently.

"Go to college" is excellent advice as far as it goes, but it should really be followed up with ". . . or trade school or some other adult education, and for God's sake, study something useful and employable!" If you're going to spend tens of thousands of dollars - or more - on a degree in womyns' studies or modern South African spirit pottery or some such, don't even bother. You're better off being the best French fry guy you can be and hoping to become manager.

My nephew's wife got talked into taking up advertising. She kicks herself every time she has to make a repayment on the college loan.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

That being said, I am highly suspicious of anyone who is over the age of 25 and can't do any better than unskilled, entry-level, minimum-wage employment. And I am REALLY skeptical of anyone who knows "so many" people like that. Really? Where in the Hell are you hanging out? Literally every friend I have has an education and/or previous job experience that jumps them above that, simply by virtue of being older than 25.

I belive I told this story in this topic, so if you read it already, just skip over:

I had a couple I rented an apartment to that left about two years ago. They lived here seven years on minimum wage jobs. Late with the rent all the time, but good tenants and they always paid within a week.

They left the way they came in. So why minimum wage jobs? Because they both smoked pot and lower paying jobs don't drug test like better paying ones. They are probably doing the same today.

It was always my hope for them that they'd realize how much life they are giving up to smoke grass, quit, and try to find better paying futuristic jobs.

If the Democrats took over and increased the federal MW pay to $15.00 an hour, my former tenants may never see the light for better paying jobs. They may work those fast food jobs into their 30's, 40's or even 50's before realizing how they wasted their lives. And of course then, it's way too late to start a career.