To those calling Snowden a coward...

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Just wanted to remind everyone snowden IS a coward

Your empty, mildly malicious one-line belches have become an annoying waste of time and space. So it's off to my Ignore list for you.

Am I supposed to care? Cry?

Get over yourself douche.

I gave my reasons early on in this thread. Sadly you had no comment on THAT POST. Perhaps because it is YOU who has nothing to offer.

Seems to me you simply can't handle opposing opinions. Perhaps running and hiding like a little ***** suits you as well.

Good riddance either way as I've never seen you post anything of consequence in any substantial discussion.

 

[bripat9643]

This topic is mainly directed at those who applaud what Snowden did, but want him to face justice. What single bit of good would turning himself in do? Do you think he will be given a fair trial, or will it be a kangaroo court? Is martyrdom more beneficial than him remaining free? If so, who is it more beneficial to? It might make you feel good, but what about the man who may spend the rest of his life in prison? I can't think of a single benefit of Snowden turning himself in.

It will allow the Administration to lock him up and throw away they key. He won't be able to talk to the press any longer.

 

[Clementine]

My biggest issue is that while everyone discusses Snowden, they ignore the corruption he exposed. Why aren't more people demanding that the Obama administration explain themselves?

Snowden will go to prison if he comes back here and we all know it. I am more concerned whether he spoke the truth when he decided to sing.

What Snowden did was against the law. Of course, had he exposed Republicans, the left would be singing his praises and vowing to protect him. Obama himself said that whistle blowers should be protected by law because they are the only means we have of discovering corruption in our government. I guess he just means that they are good when they tattle on the other side.

I am wondering what the left thinks of what the Obama administration did. I don't want to hear Bush did it, too. I want to know their opinion on why Obama not only continued spying, but stepped it up to a whole new level.

 

[MikeK]

You know.................when this whole Snowden thing started, I was kinda in his corner for a little bit, because it appeared he was trying to blow the whistle on something that needed to be exposed, and he also appeared to take the time to vet the information and not release any that would harm operations and operators overseas.

However......................the longer this goes on, the more it looks like he's in it just for the fame.

If they can find and catch him, he should be put on trial.

If his primary motive was chasing fame I'd say he's taken one hell of a risk. He's facing up to life in a maximum security federal prison and he's presently a man without a country, which probably is a very desolate feeling. Also, I believe he is smart enough to know this kind of fame is very short-lived.

Snowden said he thinks the worst thing that could come of what he did is -- nothing. And I think that's where it's headed. A significant percentage of Americans are totally ignoring the substance of Snowden's revelation while denouncing him as a traitor and a coward.

We reap what we sow.

 

[Lakhota]

Snowden is an idiot on a kamikaze mission. He's a legend in his own mind. The vast majority of Americans don't give a shit.

 

[S.J.]

That seems to imply that he's a criminal

Is he a criminal or hero/whistleblower?

The way I see it is he had to break the law in order to expose our president. The REAL traitor in all of this is Obama. He's the one who should be facing charges.

Don't let your partisan hatred cloud your judgement.

These legitimately passed measures date back to 2006

I was against Bush doing it too. In fact, some of my conservative friends called me a "liberal" when I came out against the Patriot Act. That's about the worst thing anyone could call me, but I believe in the Constitution, and spying on American citizens is wrong, no matter who does it. A lot of legislation gets passed during a crisis that could never be passed otherwise, that's what Rahm Emanuel meant when he said "Never let a good crisis go to waste".

The American people are supposed to be the boss of the government, and I can't think of anyone who would agree to let themselves be spied on without their knowledge. The government tricked us into letting this happen, telling us it would "only be used to go after terrorists", yet they're using it against everyone BUT terrorists. Maybe not Bush, but Obama for sure. That was the argument I used when trying to convince my conservative friends the Patriot Act was a BIG mistake. No one listened and now look what we have, a country under constant surveillance. This is NOT America, damnit!

 

[dblack]

My biggest issue is that while everyone discusses Snowden, they ignore the corruption he exposed. Why aren't more people demanding that the Obama administration explain themselves?

Snowden will go to prison if he comes back here and we all know it. I am more concerned whether he spoke the truth when he decided to sing.

What Snowden did was against the law. Of course, had he exposed Republicans, the left would be singing his praises and vowing to protect him. Obama himself said that whistle blowers should be protected by law because they are the only means we have of discovering corruption in our government. I guess he just means that they are good when they tattle on the other side.

I am wondering what the left thinks of what the Obama administration did. I don't want to hear Bush did it, too. I want to know their opinion on why Obama not only continued spying, but stepped it up to a whole new level.

I think there are some of them who genuinely disgusted, but not enough. And even those who are aren't making the kind of demands of their leaders that will provoke real change. Obama is clearly just another neo-con tool. He has no intention of changing things, probably never did.

 

[MikeK]

My biggest issue is that while everyone discusses Snowden, they ignore the corruption he exposed. Why aren't more people demanding that the Obama administration explain themselves?

Snowden will go to prison if he comes back here and we all know it. I am more concerned whether he spoke the truth when he decided to sing.

What Snowden did was against the law. Of course, had he exposed Republicans, the left would be singing his praises and vowing to protect him. Obama himself said that whistle blowers should be protected by law because they are the only means we have of discovering corruption in our government. I guess he just means that they are good when they tattle on the other side.

I am wondering what the left thinks of what the Obama administration did. I don't want to hear Bush did it, too. I want to know their opinion on why Obama not only continued spying, but stepped it up to a whole new level.

Clementine,

In a current Truthout article Chris Hedges draws on Melville's Moby Dick for analogy of the fanatical and obsessively suicidal path our government has taken in its so-called War On Terrorism. I think the following paragraph will interest you.

(Excerpt)

"In our decline, hatred becomes our primary lust, our highest form of patriotism and a form of eroticism. We are made supine by hatred and fear. We deploy vast resources to hunt down jihadists and terrorists, real and phantom. We destroy our civil society in the name of a war on terror. We persecute those, from Julian Assange to Bradley Manning to Edward Snowden, who expose the dark machinations of power. We believe, because we have externalized evil, that we can purify the earth. We are blind to the evil within us. Melville’s description of Ahab is a description of the bankers, corporate boards, politicians, television personalities and generals who through the power of propaganda fill our heads with seductive images of glory and lust for wealth and power. We are consumed with self-induced obsessions that spur us toward self-annihilation."

In a Nation in Decline, a Lust for Hatred

(Close)

 

[Clementine]

Snowden is an idiot on a kamikaze mission. He's a legend in his own mind. The vast majority of Americans don't give a shit.

Seriously, you think most of us don't care that our rights are being trampled?

You pretend to know what Snowden thinks of himself, which I find funny. I doubt he's an idiot or he wouldn't have gotten a job with the NSA. Or would he..........

He seems to be running scared and he should be. He just pissed off some evil people and they really are out to get him.

 

[hortysir]

Just wanted to remind everyone snowden IS a coward

Just wanted to remind everyone that Big Brother is watching. Do we care about that? Or will we let them distract us with stupid theatrics?

If you weren't aware that you were being spied on before Snowballer said something, you should really stay indoors.

 

[dblack]

Just wanted to remind everyone snowden IS a coward

Just wanted to remind everyone that Big Brother is watching. Do we care about that? Or will we let them distract us with stupid theatrics?

If you weren't aware that you were being spied on before Snowballer said something, you should really stay indoors.

So, the spying is ok with you? How about your mail? Do you mind if they start reading your mail? Cameras on the light poles outside your house focused on your bedroom window?

 

[hortysir]

The way I see it is he had to break the law in order to expose our president. The REAL traitor in all of this is Obama. He's the one who should be facing charges.

Don't let your partisan hatred cloud your judgement.

These legitimately passed measures date back to 2006

I was against Bush doing it too. In fact, some of my conservative friends called me a "liberal" when I came out against the Patriot Act. That's about the worst thing anyone could call me, but I believe in the Constitution, and spying on American citizens is wrong, no matter who does it. A lot of legislation gets passed during a crisis that could never be passed otherwise, that's what Rahm Emanuel meant when he said "Never let a good crisis go to waste".

The American people are supposed to be the boss of the government, and I can't think of anyone who would agree to let themselves be spied on without their knowledge. The government tricked us into letting this happen, telling us it would "only be used to go after terrorists", yet they're using it against everyone BUT terrorists. Maybe not Bush, but Obama for sure. That was the argument I used when trying to convince my conservative friends the Patriot Act was a BIG mistake. No one listened and now look what we have, a country under constant surveillance. This is NOT America, damnit!

Now, see?
I knew we were gonna break ground somewhere, even if it fell out in a bad way.
Thankfully it didn't.

I totally agree with *almost* every word of your post.
The only point of contention is that Bush was the first one to sell the PA as "only be(ing) used on terrorists".
Obama just pumped it all up on steroids when he extended it all back in '09.

It's just that everybody SHOULD have known this shit was going on and Snowballer isn't a hero for "breaking the news".
Now he's out telling anybody with an ear on the side of their skull exactly HOW we did it.

****'m. I hope the fleas of a thousand camels infests his armpits.

bless his heart

 

[hortysir]

Just wanted to remind everyone that Big Brother is watching. Do we care about that? Or will we let them distract us with stupid theatrics?

If you weren't aware that you were being spied on before Snowballer said something, you should really stay indoors.

So, the spying is ok with you? How about your mail? Do you mind if they start reading your mail? Cameras on the light poles outside your house focused on your bedroom window?

No I'm not okay with it.
I haven't been okay with it since W first proposed it.
That's exactly why I didn't cast a vote for POTUS in '04.

Snowballer telling the world this bullshit is like announcing the earth is round.
I just don't like him telling nations that would most benefit by our demise HOW he learned the world wasn't flat.

 

[dblack]

If you weren't aware that you were being spied on before Snowballer said something, you should really stay indoors.

So, the spying is ok with you? How about your mail? Do you mind if they start reading your mail? Cameras on the light poles outside your house focused on your bedroom window?

No I'm not okay with it.
I haven't been okay with it since W first proposed it.
That's exactly why I didn't cast a vote for POTUS in '04.

Good. We need more people willing to raise hell about this kind of shit. It doesn't help to vilify those who do.

 

[S.J.]

Don't let your partisan hatred cloud your judgement.

These legitimately passed measures date back to 2006

I was against Bush doing it too. In fact, some of my conservative friends called me a "liberal" when I came out against the Patriot Act. That's about the worst thing anyone could call me, but I believe in the Constitution, and spying on American citizens is wrong, no matter who does it. A lot of legislation gets passed during a crisis that could never be passed otherwise, that's what Rahm Emanuel meant when he said "Never let a good crisis go to waste".

The American people are supposed to be the boss of the government, and I can't think of anyone who would agree to let themselves be spied on without their knowledge. The government tricked us into letting this happen, telling us it would "only be used to go after terrorists", yet they're using it against everyone BUT terrorists. Maybe not Bush, but Obama for sure. That was the argument I used when trying to convince my conservative friends the Patriot Act was a BIG mistake. No one listened and now look what we have, a country under constant surveillance. This is NOT America, damnit!

Now, see?
I knew we were gonna break ground somewhere, even if it fell out in a bad way.
Thankfully it didn't.

I totally agree with *almost* every word of your post.
The only point of contention is that Bush was the first one to sell the PA as "only be(ing) used on terrorists".
Obama just pumped it all up on steroids when he extended it all back in '09.

It's just that everybody SHOULD have known this shit was going on and Snowballer isn't a hero for "breaking the news".
Now he's out telling anybody with an ear on the side of their skull exactly HOW we did it.

****'m. I hope the fleas of a thousand camels infests his armpits.

bless his heart

I don't think our enemies are unaware of us spying on them or the methods used to do it. That is most likely being blown out of proportion to distract us from the fact that our government is trampling all over our rights. I believe their strategy is to demonize Snowden in an effort to convince us all that what they were doing is okay. It'll NEVER be okay with me, and I hope the rest of the country feels the same way. Snowden may not be a hero but I don't think he gave our enemies anything they didn't already have.

 

[dblack]

I don't think our enemies are unaware of us spying on them or the methods used to do it. That is most likely being blown out of proportion to distract us from the fact that our government is trampling all over our rights. I believe their strategy is to demonize Snowden in an effort to convince us all that what they were doing is okay. It'll NEVER be okay with me, and I hope the rest of the country feels the same way. Snowden may not be a hero but I don't think he gave our enemies anything they didn't already have.

Exactly. And our press eats it up like ******* lapdogs.

 

[Sunshine]

This topic is mainly directed at those who applaud what Snowden did, but want him to face justice. What single bit of good would turning himself in do? Do you think he will be given a fair trial, or will it be a kangaroo court? Is martyrdom more beneficial than him remaining free? If so, who is it more beneficial to? It might make you feel good, but what about the man who may spend the rest of his life in prison? I can't think of a single benefit of Snowden turning himself in.

It will allow the Administration to lock him up and throw away they key. He won't be able to talk to the press any longer.

He will eventually be given amnesty, but not under this administration for sure.

 

[PratchettFan]

This topic is mainly directed at those who applaud what Snowden did, but want him to face justice. What single bit of good would turning himself in do? Do you think he will be given a fair trial, or will it be a kangaroo court? Is martyrdom more beneficial than him remaining free? If so, who is it more beneficial to? It might make you feel good, but what about the man who may spend the rest of his life in prison? I can't think of a single benefit of Snowden turning himself in.

Personally, I think what he did was childish and dishonorable. The fact that he ran away afterward and has shown no concern about the lack of freedom in the places he has chosen to run simply supports my first impression. If he did it for the principle, then he should stand up for his principle. Instead, what he did was violate his oath and throw a tantrum.

 

[MikeK]

Personally, I think what he did was childish and dishonorable. The fact that he ran away afterward and has shown no concern about the lack of freedom in the places he has chosen to run simply supports my first impression. If he did it for the principle, then he should stand up for his principle. Instead, what he did was violate his oath and throw a tantrum.

I am not aware of any beneficial personal motive for what Snowden did, so I can only assume he was motivated by resentment of what he witnessed while working at the NSA, actions and procedures which he has described as systematic violation of citizens' Constitutional privacy protections. If this was in fact his only motivation it is clear that what he did was a form of rebellion committed on your behalf and mine. Can you suggest another motive for what Snowden did?

If you can't understand why he is evading arrest for his action, anticipation of the the Bradley Manning example seems to me a good reason. Confinement to an 8 x/11 cell with bright white walls and ceiling, nothing but a steel cot, a toilet and a sink, nothing else, no tv, no radio, nothing to read, not even a pencil and paper to write with. Fluorescent lighted 24 hours. One hour a day in an equally barren courtyard for "exercise." Imagine experiencing that month after month, possibly for years. They call it "suidide prevention" but it is in fact torture by any rational standard!

Having no evidence of a personally beneficial motive for what he did I cannot condemn Snowden's action. Unless he is insane it would seem he did it for reasons which are best described as patriotic resentment of government excess. And in view of the foregoing description, can you really fault him for evading arrest?

 

[PratchettFan]

Personally, I think what he did was childish and dishonorable. The fact that he ran away afterward and has shown no concern about the lack of freedom in the places he has chosen to run simply supports my first impression. If he did it for the principle, then he should stand up for his principle. Instead, what he did was violate his oath and throw a tantrum.

I am not aware of any beneficial personal motive for what Snowden did, so I can only assume he was motivated by resentment of what he witnessed while working at the NSA, actions and procedures which he has described as systematic violation of citizens' Constitutional privacy protections. If this was in fact his only motivation it is clear that what he did was a form of rebellion committed on your behalf and mine. Can you suggest another motive for what Snowden did?

If you can't understand why he is evading arrest for his action, anticipation of the the Bradley Manning example seems to me a good reason. Confinement to an 8 x/11 cell with bright white walls and ceiling, nothing but a steel cot, a toilet and a sink, nothing else, no tv, no radio, nothing to read, not even a pencil and paper to write with. Fluorescent lighted 24 hours. One hour a day in an equally barren courtyard for "exercise." Imagine experiencing that month after month, possibly for years. They call it "suidide prevention" but it is in fact torture by any rational standard!

Having no evidence of a personally beneficial motive for what he did I cannot condemn Snowden's action. Unless he is insane it would seem he did it for reasons which are best described as patriotic resentment of government excess. And in view of the foregoing description, can you really fault him for evading arrest?

I'm sure that is what he is telling himself. That doesn't change my opinion. In obtaining a security clearance you atest that you will not divulge information you are made privy to. He decided to reneg on that agreement, which means his word means little. If he didn't want that responsibility, he shouldn't have signed the papers. No one held a gun to his head. If he later thought, as a matter of conscience, that he had to reneg on his word then he should have taken the consequences of that decision. He decided to run instead. As far as I am concerned, that makes him both dishonorable and a child.

So yes, I most certainly fault him for evading arrest. Not evading arrest was the only act which would have given him any legitimacy at all. Not an easy decision, but if he thought he was entitled to the responsibility of determining what was best for the country then he should have accepted the consequences of that responsibility.