To Everybody Calling Trump Mean

[Man With A Plan]

Sure, that's what courts are for. If I pull out a gun though and demand my money back, I can expect to be charged with a pretty serious crime.

So I'll ask again.

If you believe bankers are crooks, would you be allowed to rob banks?

It's a terrible analogy, Forkup. Trump didn't pull a gun on anyone. He told the crowd that day to protest peacefully. Since when is a candidate not allowed to challenge election results? Hillary has done so for years. Al Gore challenged W's win in Florida repeatedly.

 

[forkup]

It's a terrible analogy, Forkup. Trump didn't pull a gun on anyone. He told the crowd that day to protest peacefully. Since when is a candidate not allowed to challenge election results? Hillary has done so for years. Al Gore challenged W's win in Florida repeatedly.

No, it's not a bad analogy because it's an analogy that's focused on the premise that believing one crime has been committed on you doesn't excuse committing another crime in retaliation. In this case the falsifying of electoral college votes and trying to get them accepted as real.

That's the point. You rather talk about what you believe is the exact nature of what happened on Jan 6th than what it was designed to do.


You "challenge" election results in a court of law. Or if the mood strikes you (and much more ineffective) by protesting the results. Falsifying records though, to try to get the results changed in your favor is not a "challenge", it's a criminal act.

 

[Man With A Plan]

No, it's not a bad analogy because it's an analogy that's focused on the premise that one crime doesn't excuse committing another crime in retaliation. In this case the falsifying of electoral college votes and trying to get them accepted as real.

That's the point. You rather talk about what you believe is the exact nature of what happened on Jan 6th than what it was designed to do.


You "challenge" election results in a court of law. Or if the mood strikes you by protesting the results. Falsifying records though to try to get the results changed in your favor is not a "challenge" it's a criminal act.

Sending alternative electors is not the same as falsifying electoral college votes.

 

[forkup]

Sending alternative electors is not the same as falsifying electoral college votes.

Sure, it is. Every single one of those "alternative electors" put on paper they were the "duly certified electors of a state" something that actually has to happen before you can claim it. A crime people already have admitted too. And if that claim is then sent to NARA and is attempted to be put forth during the certification you are committing fraud. Fraud intended to overturn the election results.

 

[Stann]

Have you ever heard the term, Bloodless Coup

It was an attempted Bloodless Coup de'tat.

Also an attempted Self Coup.... a form of coup d'état in which a nation's head, having come to power through legal means, stays in power through illegal means.

It could have easily descended into trump declaring martial law and doing it that way.also illegal if you're the one causing the violence and mayhem..

 

[Man With A Plan]

Sure, it is. Every single one of those "alternative electors" put on paper they were the "duly certified electors of a state" something that actually has to happen before you can claim it. A crime people already have admitted too. And if that claim is then sent to NARA and is attempted to be put forth during the certification you are committing fraud. Fraud intended to overturn the election results.

Which electors are valid is up to the courts to decide...until then they're just two groups each claiming validity.

 

[forkup]

Which electors are valid is up to the courts to decide...until then they're just two groups each claiming validity.

One is certified by the state in the state capitol the other isn't. No claim at all. Simply cold hard facts. You don't roll out of bed and say, yup I'm the certified elector of the state of Michigan. It requires a process.

The State Executive of each State signs the Certificate of Ascertainment to appoint the electors chosen in the general election.
Ending up here. 2020 Electoral College Results

The fact that you claim this is somehow unknowable and simply rest on claims, is pretty telling.

 

[Man With A Plan]

One is certified by the state in the state capitol the other isn't. No claim at all. Simply cold hard facts. You don't roll out of bed and say, yup I'm the certified elector of the state of Michigan. It requires a process.

The State Executive of each State signs the Certificate of Ascertainment to appoint the electors chosen in the general election.
Ending up here. 2020 Electoral College Results

The fact that you claim this is somehow unknowable and simply rest on claims, is pretty telling.

Electors are selected before the election takes place by each party...which ones are certified later is determined by which candidate is certified to have won that State's election.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Obnoxious, cross, whatever words you want to use. Some of you are Republicans too. Let me just ask you guys a question. How would you feel if somebody tried to throw you in prison out of nowhere, kept claiming that you said things that you didn't, and tried to murder you?


Most likely you wouldn't want to send them flowers as you would be pretty ticked off. So I do believe that Trump has every reason in the world to be mister nasty.

Hes a ****.

 

[forkup]

which ones are certified later is determined by which candidate is certified to have won that State's election

Yesssss... In this case the certified electors were those of Biden. And the ones that weren't certified were those for Trump. As is attested to in the Certificate of Ascertainment. A certificate that was falsified and you claim somehow is open to dispute. While one was actually certified and the other wasn't. Something that's NOT a matter of opinion since it requires real people doing real stuff. To put it in another analogy. A fake dollar bill isn't a matter of opinion. It is fake because it is not printed by the Treasury Department's Bureau of Engraving and Printing but originates someplace else. You are claiming that the certification process is simply something you can claim regardless.

 

[Man With A Plan]

Yesssss... In this case the certified electors were those of Biden. And the ones that weren't certified were those for Trump. As is attested to in the Certificate of Ascertainment. A certificate that was falsified and you claim somehow is open to dispute. While one was actually certified and the other wasn't. Something that's NOT a matter of opinion since it requires real people doing real stuff. To put it in another analogy. A fake dollar bill isn't a matter of opinion. It is fake because it is not printed by the Treasury Department's Bureau of Engraving and Printing but originates someplace else. You are claiming that the certification process is simply something you can claim regardless.

They hadn't been certified yet. Until who won that States election is certified then the electors aren't certified.

 

[forkup]

They hadn't been certified yet. Until who won that States election is certified then the electors aren't certified.

Ok, I can't make you stop being deliberately obtuse.

The States elections were certified. A slate of electors was certified. The other slate wasn't. It doesn't matter that Trump didn't deem the election valid. The certification process is real and was executed in the States. Without it, there wouldn't have been a certification process on Jan 6th because there wouldn't have been anything to certify since that was what was being counted. So, you can pretend that somehow the states hadn't sent in their certificate of ascertainment. But it's a very weak argument.

In your very first reply to me you said, "with all due respect." I appreciate that, and I will always start from the premise that people deserve respect. Too often though, conversations like this devolve in what it has become. Namely the person I'm talking too refusing to show intellectual honesty when pressed. So, if you insist your demonstrably wrong opinion is right, be my guest. As I said I can't stop you. But at that point I can consider you, just like most, a troll, and treat you accordingly. Meaning, not fit to have an actual thoughtful conversation with, at most some entertainment when I'm bored.

I don't think you have to earn my respect. I do believe you have to show yourself worthy of it. Make your choice.

 

[Stann]

Ok, I can't make you stop being deliberately obtuse.

The States elections were certified. A slate of electors was certified. The other slate wasn't. It doesn't matter that Trump didn't deem the election valid. The certification process is real and was executed in the States. Without it, there wouldn't have been a certification process on Jan 6th because there wouldn't have been anything to certify since that was what was being counted. So, you can pretend that somehow the states hadn't sent in their certificate of ascertainment. But it's a very weak argument.

In your very first reply to me you said, "with all due respect." I appreciate that, and I will always start from the premise that people deserve respect. Too often though, conversations like this devolve in what it has become. Namely the person I'm talking too refusing to show intellectual honesty when pressed. So, if you insist your demonstrably wrong opinion is right, be my guest. As I said I can't stop you. But at that point I can consider you, just like most, a troll, and treat you accordingly. Meaning, not fit to have an actual thoughtful conversation with, at most some entertainment when I'm bored.

I don't think you have to earn my respect. I do believe you have to show yourself worthy of it. Make your choice.

He's still going to come back and be just as obtuse. I think he's just a troll. You are feeding him. Be careful which wolf you feed.

 

[Care4all]

Electors are selected before the election takes place by each party...which ones are certified later is determined by which candidate is certified to have won that State's election.

And Biden was certified as these state's winner....with the proper signature from the governor....

Trump's electors that he sent to congress and the national archives were fraudulent.

 

[Man With A Plan]

Ok, I can't make you stop being deliberately obtuse.

The States elections were certified. A slate of electors was certified. The other slate wasn't. It doesn't matter that Trump didn't deem the election valid. The certification process is real and was executed in the States. Without it, there wouldn't have been a certification process on Jan 6th because there wouldn't have been anything to certify since that was what was being counted. So, you can pretend that somehow the states hadn't sent in their certificate of ascertainment. But it's a very weak argument.

In your very first reply to me you said, "with all due respect." I appreciate that, and I will always start from the premise that people deserve respect. Too often though, conversations like this devolve in what it has become. Namely the person I'm talking too refusing to show intellectual honesty when pressed. So, if you insist your demonstrably wrong opinion is right, be my guest. As I said I can't stop you. But at that point I can consider you, just like most, a troll, and treat you accordingly. Meaning, not fit to have an actual thoughtful conversation with, at most some entertainment when I'm bored.

I don't think you have to earn my respect. I do believe you have to show yourself worthy of it. Make your choice.

And Biden was certified as these state's winner....with the proper signature from the governor....

Trump's electors that he sent to congress and the national archives were fraudulent.

Wednesday, Jan. 6​

Congress is ultimately responsible for counting and certifying the votes cast by the Electoral College, and it is scheduled to do so on Jan. 6.

If there are still disputes at this point — if Republican legislators in a state were to appoint a pro-Trump Electoral College slate in opposition to voters’ will, for instance, and the Democratic governor of the state were to appoint a pro-Biden slate — it would be Congress’s job to resolve them. Election law experts say that under federal statute, the governor’s slate should be favored.

A Timeline of the Certification Process That Trump Is Trying to Disrupt

Despite Republican efforts to undermine the process, state officials say they fully expect to meet their upcoming deadlines.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Care4all]

Wednesday, Jan. 6​

Congress is ultimately responsible for counting and certifying the votes cast by the Electoral College, and it is scheduled to do so on Jan. 6.

If there are still disputes at this point — if Republican legislators in a state were to appoint a pro-Trump Electoral College slate in opposition to voters’ will, for instance, and the Democratic governor of the state were to appoint a pro-Biden slate — it would be Congress’s job to resolve them. Election law experts say that under federal statute, the governor’s slate should be favored.

A Timeline of the Certification Process That Trump Is Trying to Disrupt

Despite Republican efforts to undermine the process, state officials say they fully expect to meet their upcoming deadlines.

www.nytimes.com

There WERE NO DISPUTES LEFT in the courts. That did not stop their attempt...

 

[Man With A Plan]

There WERE NO DISPUTES LEFT in the courts. That did not stop their attempt...

It's not up to the courts at that point...that dispute would be settled by Congress.

 

[forkup]

He's still going to come back and be just as obtuse. I think he's just a troll. You are feeding him. Be careful which wolf you feed.

Lol, I think all serious people here feed that same wolf. They're all trolls.

Over the years on this board I've reached the conclusion that you can't be a Trump supporter and be intellectually honest. No matter how many times you try, and I've tried for nearly a decade now. What ends up happening is that Trump supporters need to resort to these kinds of tactics. It's not a function of me being good at debating. Although I can say I am without any false modesty. It's a function of them following a pathological liar. Making it necessary for them to lie or be obtuse to defend it.

And once I reached that conclusion my goal has changed from my original reason for being here. Namely trying to understand people who fundamentally have different views. To what I do now. See people who fancy themselves as defenders of their ideology turning themselves into pretzels when asked to defend them. Out of a sense of amusement and wonder.

I wish it was different. Nothing would give me greater joy than having robust debates with thoughtful people. The problem is that you can't be for Trump and one of those people.

 

[forkup]

It's not up to the courts at that point...that dispute would be settled by Congress.

Oh really? So you assert that a campaign can simply type up a statement that they won the election in a state, find a few people to sign it, send them to NARA, and the courts have nothing to say? Do you realize how absolutely ridiculous that sounds?

It's also of course, again, demonstrably false. Eleven
people who signed these fake documents have already plead guilty, or received immunity deals in exchange for cooperation. Two of the lawyers involved in it plead guilty already, and got disbarred.

No matter how many times you try to spitshine this turd, it's still just a turd.

 

[Man With A Plan]

Oh really? So you assert that a campaign can simply type up a statement that they won the election in a state, find a few people to sign it, send them to NARA, and the courts have nothing to say? Do you realize how absolutely ridiculous that sounds?

It's also of course, again, demonstrably false. Eleven
people who signed these fake documents have already plead guilty, or received immunity deals in exchange for cooperation. Two of the lawyers involved in it plead guilty already, and got disbarred.

No matter how many times you try to spitshine this turd, it's still just a turd.

That wasn't my assertion...that was the assertion of The New York Times.