Titles vs. Accomplishments

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

I see this all the time when people debate "greatness" of a player

I see many ESPN-era folk buying into the massive NBA/Nike/ESPN propaganda that Michael Jordan was a mythical figure who would descend from the heavens and hit every single clutch basketball shot in the purest of form every single time.... while the truth is that he missed more than he made, and while he as indeed "clutch" at times, he was a liability in other times for the Bulls. He also didn't win jack until Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen arrived, and the Bulls were a 50 win team and near Finals-contenders without him.

I see many NFL folk try to sell Tom Brady as the greatest of all time for his titles, despite acknowledging his coaching and defense over the years, being that Brady only plays on offense, and would be outplayed on offense by other QB's but win games.

What do you guys think of this? Is this just a brain-nullified equation to decide who is the greatest?

If Bill Russell has 11 NBA Championships, he's the greatest, right? No MJ support can say otherwise?

 

[daveman]

Not much of a sports fan, but I'd say that individual accomplishments -- like field goals, RBIs, etc. -- can be compared player-to-player. But stats like championships are team accomplishments. Even the greatest player can't win games on his own.

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

Not much of a sports fan, but I'd say that individual accomplishments -- like field goals, RBIs, etc. -- can be compared player-to-player. But stats like championships are team accomplishments. Even the greatest player can't win games on his own.

As a sports fan, it gets crazy... and people refuse to say for certain what they value more.

I'd say the craziest fan base on any GOAT (greatest of all time) discussion are Michael Jordan disciples. Talking to them is like talking to a Heaven's Gate member. They are so certain of their conviction while being so willing to apply their own subjective interpretation as fact that it's insane. I've never seen a cult like it.. well, maybe Veganism.

 

[daveman]

As a sports fan, it gets crazy... and people refuse to say for certain what they value more.

I'd say the craziest fan base on any GOAT (greatest of all time) discussion are Michael Jordan disciples. Talking to them is like talking to a Heaven's Gate member. They are so certain of their conviction while being so willing to apply their own subjective interpretation as fact that it's insane. I've never seen a cult like it.. well, maybe Veganism.

My wife liked to watch the Bulls during Jordan's reign. There's no doubt he was an excellent player, leading an excellent team.

GOAT? I have no dog in that fight, so I have nothing to add there. But I will say fandoms have ruined so many movies and franchises for me by being such unmitigated dicks.

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

My wife liked to watch the Bulls during Jordan's reign. There's no doubt he was an excellent player, leading an excellent team.

GOAT? I have no dog in that fight, so I have nothing to add there. But I will say fandoms have ruined so many movies and franchises for me by being such unmitigated dicks.

Your wife watched an all-time great player of his generation. I have my opinions, but mine will more align with a notion that you can't truly apply a GOAT label on any one player over all-time.

 

[daveman]

Your wife watched an all-time great player of his generation. I have my opinions, but mine will more align with a notion that you can't truly apply a GOAT label on any one player over all-time.

Oh, certainly. Roger Bannister, when he ran a 4-minute mile, was the GOAT...or, rather, the Greatest of His Time. Now, the mile record is "3:43.13, by Hicham El Guerrouj of Morocco, at age 24, in 1999". Eventually, that record will be broken, and that runner will be the Greatest of His Time.

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

Oh, certainly. Roger Bannister, when he ran a 4-minute mile, was the GOAT...or, rather, the Greatest of His Time. Now, the mile record is "3:43.13, by Hicham El Guerrouj of Morocco, at age 24, in 1999". Eventually, that record will be broken, and that runner will be the Greatest of His Time.

Indeed. The thing is, modern idiots would simply compare Bannister to Guerrouj.. they wouldn't take into consideration modern training techniques and mindsets. The thing that makes Bannister's story so great was the universal mindset that no human could run a mile under 4 minutes.

 

[Gabe Lackmann]

No gold...no king.

no championships no consideration.

Once a player has won a championship(s) he then moves into the next level.

Individual contribution toward that/those championship(s).

The more championships...the better

That is how you can identify the greatest from the great.

Michael Jordan's six championship Bulls teams, ranked | Sporting News

www.sportingnews.com

Jordan led the LEAGUE...not just his team in scoring EVERY year they won the six championships Jordan was involved in.

Michael Jordan was the greatest.

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

No gold...no king.

no championships no consideration.

Once a player has won a championship(s) he then moves into the next level.

Individual contribution toward that/those championship(s).

The more championships...the better

That is how you can identify the greatest from the great.

Michael Jordan's six championship Bulls teams, ranked | Sporting News

www.sportingnews.com

Jordan led the LEAGUE...not just his team in scoring EVERY year they won the six championships Jordan was involved in.

Michael Jordan was the greatest.

Gosh, it's insane to think that the guy who took the most shots scored the most points. Boy, I'm just taken aback by this.

LOL

Dude, if you take off the ESPN/NBA/Nike glasses for a second, Jordan was just a chucker who got favorable foul calls all day long. He was a the leagues golden boy.. he knew it, and the refs knew it. So many MJ fans weren't even 10 years old yet pretend they were able to critique basketball. They were sold a bag of goods and now they're performing as expected..

 

[Gabe Lackmann]

Gosh, it's insane to think that the guy who took the most shots scored the most points. Boy, I'm just taken aback by this.

LOL

Dude, if you take off the ESPN/NBA/Nike glasses for a second, Jordan was just a chucker who got favorable foul calls all day long. He was a the leagues golden boy.. he knew it, and the refs knew it. So many MJ fans weren't even 10 years old yet pretend they were able to critique basketball. They were sold a bag of goods and now they're performing as expected..

The guy who led the LEAGUE in scoring was a member of the team that won the league...six times.

by your metric lots of guys have led the league in shot attempts led the league in scoring and won the league?

No.

Jordan is G.O.A.T.

suck it up hater.

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

The guy who led the LEAGUE in scoring was a member of the team that won the league...six times.

by your metric lots of guys have led the league in shot attempts led the league in scoring and won the league?

No.

Jordan is G.O.A.T.

suck it up hater.

LMAO

If he was so great, why was his team so good without him in 94-95?

And in his early years why didn't he make a team good until other HOF's got there? He either didn't make the playoffs or got rocked out of the first round quick without Pippen and Phil Jackson.

Some GOAT... what a fraud.

 

[Unkotare]

If GOAT means anything, Brady is the GOAT.

 

[Hellbilly]

If GOAT means anything, Brady is the GOAT.

Joe Montana is the GOAT.
This is known.

 

[Unkotare]

Joe Montana is the GOAT.
This is known.

Even he doesn’t believe that.

 

[Hellbilly]

Even he doesn’t believe that.

He is a humble man.

 

[WinterBorn]

At the risk of repeating myself, if GOAT means anything, Nick Saban is THE GOAT.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

At the risk of repeating myself, if GOAT means anything, Nick Saban is THE GOAT.

Well, except against Auburn he might be. An 11-8 record against his in-state rival is not the greatest.

 

[WinterBorn]

Well, except against Auburn he might be. An 11-8 record against his in-state rival is not the greatest.

Saban is 10-5 against his in-state rival.

And yes, Saban is the G.O.A.T. of college football coaches.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Saban is 10-5 against his in-state rival.

And yes, Saban is the G.O.A.T. of college football coaches.

Where are you getting those numbers?

11 Victories and eight losses for Alabama coach Nick Saban against Auburn. Saban’s record in SEC regular-season games against all other teams is 122-20.

Alabama at Auburn by the numbers

Alabama and Auburn will square off in an SEC football game at 2:30 p.m. CDT Saturday at Jordan-Hare Stadium in Auburn.

www.al.com

With their 4-overtime victory, that's now 12 wins and 8 losses.

Against the SEC in regular season games, he wins 86% of the time. Against Auburn, he wins only 60% of the time.

In the last Iron Bowl, I was almost certain he was going to stroke out when they were behind.

 

[WinterBorn]

Where are you getting those numbers?

11 Victories and eight losses for Alabama coach Nick Saban against Auburn. Saban’s record in SEC regular-season games against all other teams is 122-20.

Alabama at Auburn by the numbers

Alabama and Auburn will square off in an SEC football game at 2:30 p.m. CDT Saturday at Jordan-Hare Stadium in Auburn.

www.al.com

With their 4-overtime victory, that's now 12 wins and 8 losses.

Against the SEC in regular season games, he wins 86% of the time. Against Auburn, he wins only 60% of the time.

In the last Iron Bowl, I was almost certain he was going to stroke out when they were behind.

The numbers I quoted were concerning the "in-state" rivals. If you include the games between LSU and auburn, it is not an in-state rivalry.

And my claims of Saban being the G.O.A.T. stand because of the number of victories, conference titles, and national championships. The dynasty created by Saban at Alabama has no equal in the history of college football.