Thoughts on the CDC hiding their 2.4 million defensive gun use research...

[Harpy Eagle]

And it is all a stupid, and meaningless debate. We do not need to defend our constitutional right to own arms. If there was not a single DGU we would still have the 2nd and we would still have the right to own guns.

Quoting dubious numbers does nothing for the argument.

 

[2aguy]

Kleck is a joke, his "study" was so full of holes that two classes I took for my masters used it as examples of a poorly done study and faulty analysis.

It's so full of holes that you can't even demonstrate one.

It seems as though the only hole that can be found here is the one in in your head, in the place of where regular people have a brain.

Contradictions of Kleck

And here is Kleck responding to the latest lies about his work...and again....twit...the CDC confirms what he found......

Defensive Gun Use Is Not a Myth

Like Hemenway (who is also untrained in survey methods), they believe that it’s perfectly plausible that surveys generate enormous over-estimates of crime-related experiences, as if this were the most commonplace thing in the world. The reality that survey experts are familiar with, however, is that surveys of the general public simply do not overestimate crime-related experiences.

In order for a survey respondent to report a typical DGU, she or he must be willing to report all three of the following elements of the event: (1) a crime victimization experience, (2) his or her possession of a gun, and (3) his or her own commission of a crime. The last element is relevant because most DGUs occur away from the user’s home, and only about 1 percent of the population in 1993, when we conducted our survey, had a permit that allowed them to legally carry a gun through public spaces. Thus, although survey-reported defensive gun uses themselves rarely involve criminal behavior (that is, the defender did not use the gun to commit a criminal assault or other offense), most (at least back in 1993) involved unlawful possession of a gun in a public place by the defender.

So what does research on the flaws in surveys of crime-related behaviors tell us? It consistently indicates that survey respondents underreport (1) crime victimization experiences, (2) gun ownership and (3) their own illegal behavior. While it is true that a few respondents overstate their crime-related experiences, they are greatly outnumbered by those who understate them, i.e. those who falsely deny having the experience when in fact they did. In sum, research tells us that surveys underestimate the frequency of crime victimizations, gun possession and self-reported illegal behavior. Yet DeFilippis and Hughes somehow manage to conclude that defensive gun uses—incidents that always involve the first two of those elements, and usually the third as well—are overestimated in surveys.

Like Hemenway, DeFilippis and Hughes fail to understand the most fundamental logical issue regarding whether surveys under or overestimate the frequency of defensive gun use. The point at issue is not whether there are “false positive” responses, i.e. respondents saying “yes, they used their gun defensively” when the correct answer was “no.” No one has ever disputed that there are some false positives in these surveys.


But this by itself can tell us nothing about whether DGU estimates are too high or too low overall. Even if false positives were numerous, false negatives (when a respondent falsely denies a DGU that actually occurred) could be (and, according to extensive research, are) even more common.


In that case, survey estimates of DGU frequency would be too low, not the enormous overestimate that DeFilippis and Hughes believe in. Since neither of those authors nor Hemenway—nor any other critics for that matter—have ever made the slightest effort to estimate the number of false negatives, they cannot possibly know whether false positives outnumber false negatives and therefore have no logical foundation whatsoever for their claims that erroneous responses to DGU questions result in an overestimate of DGU frequency.

Wow, I am shocked that Kleck would say he was right...man I did not see that coming.

Wow....anti gunners say Kleck is wrong.....that's a shock...considering that the anti gunners who tried to duplicate Kleck's work, in order to debunk his work, at the Department of Justice, and now we learn at the Centers for Disease control...came out with numbers as high as his.........failing miserably to "debunk" his work....so he CDC just hid their data.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 2.46 million each of those years. ( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

 

[2aguy]

And it is all a stupid, and meaningless debate. We do not need to defend our constitutional right to own arms. If there was not a single DGU we would still have the 2nd and we would still have the right to own guns.

Quoting dubious numbers does nothing for the argument.

You are a stupid person.....we are one Supreme Court Justice away from losing the 2nd Amendment. And as the CNN Town Hall showed, the democrats want to ban all guns....

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Wow....anti gunners say Kleck is wrong.....that's a shock...considering that the anti gunners who tried to duplicate Kleck's work,

I am not an anti-gunner you ******* moron.

 

[2aguy]

Wow....anti gunners say Kleck is wrong.....that's a shock...considering that the anti gunners who tried to duplicate Kleck's work,

I am not an anti-gunner you ******* moron.

You spew their crap out of your mouth so you are an anti gunner useful idiot.....

 

[Harpy Eagle]

And it is all a stupid, and meaningless debate. We do not need to defend our constitutional right to own arms. If there was not a single DGU we would still have the 2nd and we would still have the right to own guns.

Quoting dubious numbers does nothing for the argument.

You are a stupid person.....we are one Supreme Court Justice away from losing the 2nd Amendment. And as the CNN Town Hall showed, the democrats want to ban all guns....

Oh ******* bullshit. People have been feeding us that lie for my whole life time and it has not happened.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Wow....anti gunners say Kleck is wrong.....that's a shock...considering that the anti gunners who tried to duplicate Kleck's work,

I am not an anti-gunner you ******* moron.

You spew their crap out of your mouth so you are an anti gunner useful idiot.....

Because I do not accept a flawed study. Sorry buddy, you can be a sheep if you want..I do not play that game.

 

[dudmuck]

Here we have a look at the CDC hiding the results of 3 years of research into defensive gun use......the author points out that Dr. Kleck had to dig out the information from the CDC

GUN WATCH: CDC Failed to Report Strong Evidence of Defensive Gun Uses

The paragraph above does not rule out the surveys done by the CDC. It says that "more than 19 national surveys" not "19 national surveys". Were the authors aware of the CDC surveys done in 1996, 1997, and 1998, that essentially confirmed the estimates made by Kleck and Gertz in the 1995 paper?

The timing and size of the surveys done by the CDC is fascinating. They were done immediately after Kleck and Gertz published their paper. There were three of them. The one in 1996 was the largest ever done. 5,884 people were asked the DGU question. The total number of people asked in the three surveys done by the CDC was 12,870. All were asked the same question. It is as if a single very large survey was done, over three years. Kleck and Gertz' survey asked their DGU questions of 4,977 people.

Kleck goes into considerable detail about how his survey, done in 1993 (published in 1995) differs from the CDC survey. For example, in the CDC survey, only those people who admitted to having a gun in the home were asked the DGU question.
=======

Having read the Kleck and Gertz paper, I often wished that someone would do another survey, to broaden the sample, to provide more data.

Now we find the CDC did three such surveys. All of them validated the Kleck and Gertz survey. One large survey, such as the one by Kleck and Gertz, is indicative. Four of them show scientific replication and add to certainty. We were never told of the results of the confirming surveys done by the CDC.

Gary Kleck, as a scientist, a Democrat, and a proponent of a number of gun control measures, is careful not to cast aspersions on the CDC. He does not accuse anyone of malfeasance. He notes the surveys were done during the Clinton administration, and these findings would have worked against the gun control agenda of the administration. Someone at the CDC made the decision not to publish these results.

Kleck, while doing research, happened to come across the DGU question in a historical CDC survey, online, 21 years after the CDC surveys had been completed.

He was intrigued, and was able to find the original surveys done in 1996, 1997, 1998, and all the results.

It has to be gratifying to Dr. Kleck, to see his results validated after more than two decades. It may be infuriating to know these results were available from 1997 to 1999, and were never made public.

Its mainly because of these contradictions. NCVS study showed only 65,000 defensive gun uses.

 

[2aguy]

And it is all a stupid, and meaningless debate. We do not need to defend our constitutional right to own arms. If there was not a single DGU we would still have the 2nd and we would still have the right to own guns.

Quoting dubious numbers does nothing for the argument.

You are a stupid person.....we are one Supreme Court Justice away from losing the 2nd Amendment. And as the CNN Town Hall showed, the democrats want to ban all guns....

Oh ******* bullshit. People have been feeding us that lie for my whole life time and it has not happened.

And the left wing justices on the court have stated they want to overturn Heller and both hilary and obama have stated they want Australian gun control...... They took the mask off you moron.......they stated they want to ban all semi automatic weapons at the CNN TownHall, and marched with signs saying the same ******* thing at the D.C. rallies....and their pet Supreme Court Justice and their news outlets are calling for repealing the 2nd Amendment...

You are an anti gun useful idiot....

 

[2aguy]

Here we have a look at the CDC hiding the results of 3 years of research into defensive gun use......the author points out that Dr. Kleck had to dig out the information from the CDC

GUN WATCH: CDC Failed to Report Strong Evidence of Defensive Gun Uses

The paragraph above does not rule out the surveys done by the CDC. It says that "more than 19 national surveys" not "19 national surveys". Were the authors aware of the CDC surveys done in 1996, 1997, and 1998, that essentially confirmed the estimates made by Kleck and Gertz in the 1995 paper?

The timing and size of the surveys done by the CDC is fascinating. They were done immediately after Kleck and Gertz published their paper. There were three of them. The one in 1996 was the largest ever done. 5,884 people were asked the DGU question. The total number of people asked in the three surveys done by the CDC was 12,870. All were asked the same question. It is as if a single very large survey was done, over three years. Kleck and Gertz' survey asked their DGU questions of 4,977 people.

Kleck goes into considerable detail about how his survey, done in 1993 (published in 1995) differs from the CDC survey. For example, in the CDC survey, only those people who admitted to having a gun in the home were asked the DGU question.
=======

Having read the Kleck and Gertz paper, I often wished that someone would do another survey, to broaden the sample, to provide more data.

Now we find the CDC did three such surveys. All of them validated the Kleck and Gertz survey. One large survey, such as the one by Kleck and Gertz, is indicative. Four of them show scientific replication and add to certainty. We were never told of the results of the confirming surveys done by the CDC.

Gary Kleck, as a scientist, a Democrat, and a proponent of a number of gun control measures, is careful not to cast aspersions on the CDC. He does not accuse anyone of malfeasance. He notes the surveys were done during the Clinton administration, and these findings would have worked against the gun control agenda of the administration. Someone at the CDC made the decision not to publish these results.

Kleck, while doing research, happened to come across the DGU question in a historical CDC survey, online, 21 years after the CDC surveys had been completed.

He was intrigued, and was able to find the original surveys done in 1996, 1997, 1998, and all the results.

It has to be gratifying to Dr. Kleck, to see his results validated after more than two decades. It may be infuriating to know these results were available from 1997 to 1999, and were never made public.

Its mainly because of these contradictions. NCVS study showed only 65,000 defensive gun uses.

Do you realize that the NCVS doesn't ask one question about defensive gun use? That the NCVS is not a defensive gun use study, but a crime victimization study? So how does a study that does not ask one question about defensive gun use, and doesn't have the word "gun" in it, get numbers that are remotely accurate?

https://www.nap.edu/read/10881/chapter/7#104

Coverage

Perhaps the most obvious explanation for the wide variation in the range of DGU estimates is that the surveys measure different variables. In the NSDS, for example, all respondents are asked the gun use questions.

In contrast, the NCVS inquires only about use among persons who claim to be victims of rape, assault, burglary, personal and household larceny, and car theft.

The NCVS excludes preemptive uses of firearms, uses that occur in crimes not screened for in the survey (e.g., commercial robbery, trespassing, and arson), and uses for crimes not revealed by respondents.1

Also....from the Daily Kos, on why the NCVS is innaccurate....

Defensive Gun Use Part III - The National Crime Victimization Study

The disadvantages of this study design are:
1) the study is not specifically designed to measure DGUs;

2) the study does not track every type of crime;

3) the study does not ask every interviewee about episodes of DGU;

4) interviewees are not specifically asked about defending themselves with a gun;

5) follow-up studies have demonstrated that the incidence of assault (and especially assaults by relatives and non-strangers) in the NCVS is under-reported, and if crime is under-reported then so too will DGUs be under-reported;

6) respondents’ anonymity is not preserved, and some interviewees may therefore feel wary or unwilling to discuss gun use with federal government employees.

 

[2aguy]

Wow....anti gunners say Kleck is wrong.....that's a shock...considering that the anti gunners who tried to duplicate Kleck's work,

I am not an anti-gunner you ******* moron.

You spew their crap out of your mouth so you are an anti gunner useful idiot.....

Because I do not accept a flawed study. Sorry buddy, you can be a sheep if you want..I do not play that game.

There are 3 studies 2 of them specifically created to debunk Kleck, and they failed....both created by anti gunners.........and they failed.....not to forget all he other studies...

Tell us how all the other studies are wrong too....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 2.46 million each of those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

 

[DrLove]

Wow....anti gunners say Kleck is wrong.....that's a shock...considering that the anti gunners who tried to duplicate Kleck's work,

I am not an anti-gunner you ******* moron.

You spew their crap out of your mouth so you are an anti gunner useful idiot.....

And who's crap do YOU spew --- What are they paying you to do this day in and day out anyway?

 

[Pop23]

Here we have a look at the CDC hiding the results of 3 years of research into defensive gun use......the author points out that Dr. Kleck had to dig out the information from the CDC

GUN WATCH: CDC Failed to Report Strong Evidence of Defensive Gun Uses

The paragraph above does not rule out the surveys done by the CDC. It says that "more than 19 national surveys" not "19 national surveys". Were the authors aware of the CDC surveys done in 1996, 1997, and 1998, that essentially confirmed the estimates made by Kleck and Gertz in the 1995 paper?

The timing and size of the surveys done by the CDC is fascinating. They were done immediately after Kleck and Gertz published their paper. There were three of them. The one in 1996 was the largest ever done. 5,884 people were asked the DGU question. The total number of people asked in the three surveys done by the CDC was 12,870. All were asked the same question. It is as if a single very large survey was done, over three years. Kleck and Gertz' survey asked their DGU questions of 4,977 people.

Kleck goes into considerable detail about how his survey, done in 1993 (published in 1995) differs from the CDC survey. For example, in the CDC survey, only those people who admitted to having a gun in the home were asked the DGU question.
=======

Having read the Kleck and Gertz paper, I often wished that someone would do another survey, to broaden the sample, to provide more data.

Now we find the CDC did three such surveys. All of them validated the Kleck and Gertz survey. One large survey, such as the one by Kleck and Gertz, is indicative. Four of them show scientific replication and add to certainty. We were never told of the results of the confirming surveys done by the CDC.

Gary Kleck, as a scientist, a Democrat, and a proponent of a number of gun control measures, is careful not to cast aspersions on the CDC. He does not accuse anyone of malfeasance. He notes the surveys were done during the Clinton administration, and these findings would have worked against the gun control agenda of the administration. Someone at the CDC made the decision not to publish these results.

Kleck, while doing research, happened to come across the DGU question in a historical CDC survey, online, 21 years after the CDC surveys had been completed.

He was intrigued, and was able to find the original surveys done in 1996, 1997, 1998, and all the results.

It has to be gratifying to Dr. Kleck, to see his results validated after more than two decades. It may be infuriating to know these results were available from 1997 to 1999, and were never made public.

Its mainly because of these contradictions. NCVS study showed only 65,000 defensive gun uses.

LOL, even if true, it means 65,000 folks are not victims of a violent crime!

Your point was?

 

[2aguy]

Here we have a look at the CDC hiding the results of 3 years of research into defensive gun use......the author points out that Dr. Kleck had to dig out the information from the CDC

GUN WATCH: CDC Failed to Report Strong Evidence of Defensive Gun Uses

The paragraph above does not rule out the surveys done by the CDC. It says that "more than 19 national surveys" not "19 national surveys". Were the authors aware of the CDC surveys done in 1996, 1997, and 1998, that essentially confirmed the estimates made by Kleck and Gertz in the 1995 paper?

The timing and size of the surveys done by the CDC is fascinating. They were done immediately after Kleck and Gertz published their paper. There were three of them. The one in 1996 was the largest ever done. 5,884 people were asked the DGU question. The total number of people asked in the three surveys done by the CDC was 12,870. All were asked the same question. It is as if a single very large survey was done, over three years. Kleck and Gertz' survey asked their DGU questions of 4,977 people.

Kleck goes into considerable detail about how his survey, done in 1993 (published in 1995) differs from the CDC survey. For example, in the CDC survey, only those people who admitted to having a gun in the home were asked the DGU question.
=======

Having read the Kleck and Gertz paper, I often wished that someone would do another survey, to broaden the sample, to provide more data.

Now we find the CDC did three such surveys. All of them validated the Kleck and Gertz survey. One large survey, such as the one by Kleck and Gertz, is indicative. Four of them show scientific replication and add to certainty. We were never told of the results of the confirming surveys done by the CDC.

Gary Kleck, as a scientist, a Democrat, and a proponent of a number of gun control measures, is careful not to cast aspersions on the CDC. He does not accuse anyone of malfeasance. He notes the surveys were done during the Clinton administration, and these findings would have worked against the gun control agenda of the administration. Someone at the CDC made the decision not to publish these results.

Kleck, while doing research, happened to come across the DGU question in a historical CDC survey, online, 21 years after the CDC surveys had been completed.

He was intrigued, and was able to find the original surveys done in 1996, 1997, 1998, and all the results.

It has to be gratifying to Dr. Kleck, to see his results validated after more than two decades. It may be infuriating to know these results were available from 1997 to 1999, and were never made public.

Its mainly because of these contradictions. NCVS study showed only 65,000 defensive gun uses.

The only study that doesn't ask about defensive gun use has a low number of defensive gun use? Wow.....that is some study....

What you should really understand that the NCVS doesn't even ask about defensive gun use, doesn't have the word gun in any question..... and still came up with 108,000 defensive gun uses....


compared to all of these....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 2.46 million each of those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

 

[2aguy]

Wow....anti gunners say Kleck is wrong.....that's a shock...considering that the anti gunners who tried to duplicate Kleck's work,

I am not an anti-gunner you ******* moron.

You spew their crap out of your mouth so you are an anti gunner useful idiot.....

And who's crap do YOU spew --- What are they paying you to do this day in and day out anyway?

I put out facts, the truth and the reality.....why do you guys always lie?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

And it is all a stupid, and meaningless debate. We do not need to defend our constitutional right to own arms. If there was not a single DGU we would still have the 2nd and we would still have the right to own guns.

Quoting dubious numbers does nothing for the argument.

You are a stupid person.....we are one Supreme Court Justice away from losing the 2nd Amendment. And as the CNN Town Hall showed, the democrats want to ban all guns....

Oh ******* bullshit. People have been feeding us that lie for my whole life time and it has not happened.

And the left wing justices on the court have stated they want to overturn Heller and both hilary and obama have stated they want Australian gun control...... They took the mask off you moron.......they stated they want to ban all semi automatic weapons at the CNN TownHall, and marched with signs saying the same ******* thing at the D.C. rallies....and their pet Supreme Court Justice and their news outlets are calling for repealing the 2nd Amendment...

You are an anti gun useful idiot....

 

[2aguy]

And it is all a stupid, and meaningless debate. We do not need to defend our constitutional right to own arms. If there was not a single DGU we would still have the 2nd and we would still have the right to own guns.

Quoting dubious numbers does nothing for the argument.

You are a stupid person.....we are one Supreme Court Justice away from losing the 2nd Amendment. And as the CNN Town Hall showed, the democrats want to ban all guns....

Oh ******* bullshit. People have been feeding us that lie for my whole life time and it has not happened.

And the left wing justices on the court have stated they want to overturn Heller and both hilary and obama have stated they want Australian gun control...... They took the mask off you moron.......they stated they want to ban all semi automatic weapons at the CNN TownHall, and marched with signs saying the same ******* thing at the D.C. rallies....and their pet Supreme Court Justice and their news outlets are calling for repealing the 2nd Amendment...

You are an anti gun useful idiot....

Your failure to make a valid point is noted....

you are a useful idiot for the gun control movement....you must be proud....

 

[Harpy Eagle]

And it is all a stupid, and meaningless debate. We do not need to defend our constitutional right to own arms. If there was not a single DGU we would still have the 2nd and we would still have the right to own guns.

Quoting dubious numbers does nothing for the argument.

You are a stupid person.....we are one Supreme Court Justice away from losing the 2nd Amendment. And as the CNN Town Hall showed, the democrats want to ban all guns....

Oh ******* bullshit. People have been feeding us that lie for my whole life time and it has not happened.

And the left wing justices on the court have stated they want to overturn Heller and both hilary and obama have stated they want Australian gun control...... They took the mask off you moron.......they stated they want to ban all semi automatic weapons at the CNN TownHall, and marched with signs saying the same ******* thing at the D.C. rallies....and their pet Supreme Court Justice and their news outlets are calling for repealing the 2nd Amendment...

You are an anti gun useful idiot....

Your failure to make a valid point is noted....

you are a useful idiot for the gun control movement....you must be proud....

 

[DrLove]

I put out facts, the truth and the reality.....why do you guys always lie?

No you don't - It's all NRA propaganda. When are you going to realize that most of the Progressives in USMB are gun owners?

We simply would like to see a few rational RULES and we don't believe anyone is out to grab 'em.

Stop being afraid - If you want to be buried with your arsenal, it'll still be around when you die.

 

[JakeStarkey]

2aguy is hiding that the defensive gun use is overwhelmingly by LEO.

And again, the anti gunner has to lie...because the truth, the facts and the reality do not support his beliefs about guns...

CDC, in Surveys It Never Bothered Making Public, Provides More Evidence That Plenty of Americans Innocently Defend Themselves with Guns

Kleck was impressed with how well the survey worded its question: "During the last 12 months, have you confronted another person with a firearm, even if you did not fire it, to protect yourself, your property, or someone else?"

Respondents were told to leave out incidents from occupations, like policing, where using firearms is part of the job.

Kleck is impressed with how the question excludes animals but includes DGUs outside the home as well as within it.

The pro-gun defense above is based on a propaganda blog, not real sources.