Those Peaceful People-Let's 'Give' Them Their Own State

[Annie]

Of course they already have their own state, since last year's pullout of Gaza. Well never mind that, peace has broken out, (again), in their non-civil war:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1583349,00.html

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — After a final burst of violence, a tenuous cease-fire began to take hold in the Gaza Strip early Tuesday after five days of intense fighting between the rival Hamas and Fatah factions left 34 people dead.

The lull came just as Israel carried out its first response to a Palestinian suicide bombing, conducting an airstrike early Tuesday on a tunnel dug by Palestinians near the Gaza-Israel border.

Previous truce deals between Hamas and Fatah struck in recent weeks of factional clashes have quickly collapsed, and it appeared unlikely the two sides would comply with all the terms of the current agreement, such as handing over all those involved in killings and abductions.

In the past, Hamas and Fatah gunmen have used such lull periods to prepare for the next round of fighting.

The shaky truce deal, struck by Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas and a Rauhi Fattouh, an envoy of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, came as a two-month cease-fire between Israel and the Palestinians was being jeopardized by a Palestinian suicide bombing, the first since April. The bomber, a 21-year-old from Gaza, struck the Israeli resort city of Eilat on the Red Sea on Sunday, killing three people and himself.

Hamas, which controls the Palestinian parliament and Cabinet, praised the attack as legitimate resistance, and Israeli leaders hinted that a military response was being considered...

Whoops, they'll have to try again:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070202/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

Gaza erupts in fatal clashes after truce

By IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press Writer 38 minutes ago

Hamas fighters blew up a pro-Fatah radio station in Gaza, ambulances were caught in the crossfire and gunmen exchanged heavy fire in deserted streets as a new wave of factional fighting raged Friday throughout the chaotic coastal territory.

The resurgent violence, which has killed eight people since Thursday, destroyed a brief truce between Fatah and Hamas and forced thousands of Gazans to huddle in their homes to escape the crossfire.

In a symbol that the two sides had returned to open warfare, their respective radio stations stopped playing songs of national unity and broadcast songs about armed struggle and fighting the enemy.

More than 100 Palestinians have been killed in internal violence since Hamas won parliamentary elections last year and formed a Cabinet. In the wake of the election, President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah took control of the security forces and Hamas established its own militia. The two forces have fought repeatedly in the streets, despite a series of brief truces.

Egyptian mediators blamed Hamas for violating the latest cease-fire deal by ambushing an official convoy....

 

[Gurdari]

Palestinians do NOT have their own state! When another country can withold their money, impose checkpoints, invade with impunity and bulldoze their homes - Palestinians hardly have control. Despite international efforts to mess with Hamas democratic victory, they have managed to stay the course.
Bush should be proud.

 

[Roopull]

The Palestinians are getting exactly what they asked for. I'm not saying they deserve it, but when you put a quasi-terrorist entity into control... dumbasses.


The in-fighting within Palestine is a good thing for Israel. If the Palestinians get along with each other... well...

When another country can withold their money, impose checkpoints, invade with impunity and bulldoze their homes - Palestinians hardly have control.

You are exactly right. Excellent point. I'd add that when another country can blow up your bus stations, cafes, almost exclusively & blatantly intentionally target children & other civillians... and reign rockets & missiles down on you with no warning, you hardly have control.

 

[Annie]

Palestinians do NOT have their own state! When another country can withold their money, impose checkpoints, invade with impunity and bulldoze their homes - Palestinians hardly have control. Despite international efforts to mess with Hamas democratic victory, they have managed to stay the course.
Bush should be proud.

The course of Hamas is destruction of Israel, then they'll work on the final destruction of the Palestinians. Why do you think no other Arab state wants the Palis?

 

[Annie]

Palestinians do NOT have their own state! When another country can withold their money, impose checkpoints, invade with impunity and bulldoze their homes - Palestinians hardly have control. Despite international efforts to mess with Hamas democratic victory, they have managed to stay the course.
Bush should be proud.

Here is another illustrative report, note how Palestinians keep their word'...

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/wor...71170000&en=84b248d78ba24875&ei=5070&emc=eta1

February 3, 2007
Palestinian Factional Clashes Go On
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 5:47 a.m. ET

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) -- Fatah and Hamas clashed at Cabinet ministries, universities and security headquarters Saturday in defiance of a truce that was to have calmed the seething Gaza Strip.

Twelve people were wounded by late morning, hospital officials said, and Fatah said Hamas had kidnapped 40 of its security officials at roadblocks.

The cease-fire agreement was announced late Friday on the deadliest single day of battles between the two sides, who have been locked in a violent power struggle since the Islamic militant Hamas ousted Fatah from power last year.

Palestinian officials said the deal was approved by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah and Hamas' supreme leader, Khaled Mashaal. But the cease-fire -- the second announced this week -- showed no signs of taking hold.

Gunbattles raged across Gaza after the truce was announced, continuing through the night and early Saturday. With no casualties reported overnight, some Gazans, who had spent the previous two days huddled at home for safety, were emboldened to leave their houses to go to work.

But confrontations soon heated up in Gaza City, the coastal strip's largest town. Fatah gunmen stormed the Agriculture Ministry, ransacking offices and stealing computers, servers and official documents, said Agriculture Minister Mohammed al-Agha.

Fatah-affiliated security officials said nothing was stolen or destroyed, and denied al-Agha's assertion that gunmen opened fire from the building's rooftops.

Officials at the Hamas-run Communications and Postal Ministry said Fatah gunmen fired two rocket-propelled grenades at the building. Gunbattles also erupted around the Interior Ministry, which Hamas controls, and the Fatah-dominated National Security headquarters.

Universities also continued to be the site of clashes. Armed men at Islamic University, a Hamas stronghold, traded fire with Fatah fighters who took up position on the rooftop of nearby al-Azhar University and surrounding buildings. University workers ran for cover as gunshots pierced the air...

 

[Annie]

Well that won't stop our state department:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16947262/from/RS.1/

Rice urges Mideast peace talks
Russia says Syria could be constructive, but U.S. not optimistic
The Associated Press
Updated: 6:24 p.m. CT Feb 2, 2007

WASHINGTON - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Friday that Mideast peace talks should resume despite an outbreak of violence among Palestinian factions.

“It doesn’t help to talk about a timetable, but it does help to talk about a commitment,” Rice said after meeting with world powers for a strategy session on the Middle East.

The gathering of would-be peacemakers comes amid renewed fighting between Hamas militants and security forces loyal to the former ruling Fatah Party that has raised new alarm about a possible Palestinian civil war.

More than 100 Palestinians have been killed in internal violence since Hamas won parliamentary elections last year and formed a Cabinet.

Despite that violence, “there’s simply no reason to avoid the subject of how we get to a Palestinian state,” Rice said after a meeting at the State Department with foreign ministers from Russia, the European Union and the United Nations...

 

[trobinett]

Palestinians do NOT have their own state! When another country can withold their money, impose checkpoints, invade with impunity and bulldoze their homes - Palestinians hardly have control. Despite international efforts to mess with Hamas democratic victory, they have managed to stay the course.
Bush should be proud.

Palestinians DO have their own State, THATS the problem!

It's not THEIR money, it INTERNATIONAL AID.

Yea, Hamas is "staying the course", terror, death, and destruction.

Why on earth would you say, "Bush should be proud"? Are you another of those that hold OUR President responsible for EVERYTHING bad in the world?

Oh, by the way, Freedom ISN'T free, anyone who has fought for it knows that.

 

[Gurdari]

Palestinians DO have their own State, THATS the problem!

It's not THEIR money, it INTERNATIONAL AID.

Yea, Hamas is "staying the course", terror, death, and destruction.

Why on earth would you say, "Bush should be proud"? Are you another of those that hold OUR President responsible for EVERYTHING bad in the world?

Oh, by the way, Freedom ISN'T free, anyone who has fought for it knows that.

Actually, the money in question is tax levied on Palestinian earners in Israel, so it is NOT 'AID'. Hamas was the only group to have a 16 month ceasefire with Israel, and their representative on CNN even said the future is a two-state solution, however, what do expect them to do when Israel disobeys international law and consistently violates their obligations by building more settlements, bulldozing homes, and killing FAR MORE civillians than any militant arabs have ever killed jews.

Sure Hamas should renounce violence, but asking only one side of a fight to put down their weapons is unfair, and unrealistic. Especially when the side being asked to make all the concessions is the weaker, poorer side. How can anyone claim they have their own state when another country can build barriers through it? Can subject the citizens to security checkpoints, deny ambulances the ability to get to the wounded, and fire missiles into homes 'SUSPECTED' of housing militants. I don't like the thought of anyone being killed - but resistance to occupation is legal, and no matter how many vetoes the US uses - the rest of the world knows oppression when they see it.

 

[Gurdari]

To the comment about freedom, leaving someone alone, not bombing them, and not destabilizing their government IS free. Sending thousands of troops to another country and kicking in people's doors, jailing them, shutting down newspapers, making and using chemical weapons - THAT costs money. Just check the deficit.

 

[William Joyce]

It's always funny to me to watch the case of Israel v. the Palestinians unfold, and trained American reaction to it. The Israelis are, clumsy though it may be, practically indistinguishable from Nazis in their treatment of Palestinians. And yet, they themselves had the most recent experience of being on the business end of fierce nationalism.

But never mind. Nazis are all bad, and Jews are all good. So says the media, the schools, our government, the neoconservatives, and all the rest. Just a few lefty and far-right kooks willing to point out the freakin' obvious. No amount of facts will persuade your average Idiot American that "Israel good. Israel good. Israel never bad. Israel never bad. Me eat cheez whiz. Me watch Oprah now."

Duh. People are so dumb. I don't care if you're Jewish and want all Arabs dead or vice-versa, the facts are the facts. And the fact is that Israel is a middle-eastern version of National Socialist Germany, with American funding and Jewish-controlled American media support.

I personally don't care if Jews want to act like Nazis. But the fact that everyone lies about it so reflexively just weirds me out.

 

[José]

Originally posted by William Joyce
It's always funny to me to watch the case of Israel v. the Palestinians unfold, and trained American reaction to it. The Israelis are, clumsy though it may be, practically indistinguishable from Nazis in their treatment of Palestinians. And yet, they themselves had the most recent experience of being on the business end of fierce nationalism.

But never mind. Nazis are all bad, and Jews are all good. So says the media, the schools, our government, the neoconservatives, and all the rest. Just a few lefty and far-right kooks willing to point out the freakin' obvious. No amount of facts will persuade your average Idiot American that "Israel good. Israel good. Israel never bad. Israel never bad. Me eat cheez whiz. Me watch Oprah now."

Duh. People are so dumb. I don't care if you're Jewish and want all Arabs dead or vice-versa, the facts are the facts. And the fact is that Israel is a middle-eastern version of National Socialist Germany, with American funding and Jewish-controlled American media support.

I personally don't care if Jews want to act like Nazis. But the fact that everyone lies about it so reflexively just weirds me out.

 

[gabosaurus]

I certainly agree. We should learn from our mistake with Israel. We gave them their own homeland, and they became a terrorist state.
If we give the Palestinians their own state, they would also become a terrorist state.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

My computer screwed up. Sorry. Israel is the greatest friend to america. I hate the u.s. media because they are liberally biased, but I dont believe the jews run anything. Who owns cnn?, a jew?, NOPE, an anti-semite named ted turner. Who owns fox news, a jew?, nope. Rupert murdoch. Jose And William need to stop drinking the cool aid.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

William Joyce
Now Available in Mild Posts: 3,090
Rep Points 3330
Rep Power: 49


It's always funny to me to watch the case of Israel v. the Palestinians unfold, and trained American reaction to it. The Israelis are, clumsy though it may be, practically indistinguishable from Nazis in their treatment of Palestinians. And yet, they themselves had the most recent experience of being on the business end of fierce nationalism.

Right William, The jews in the 1930's & 40's were going around bombing everybody and talking about taking over the world for judaism. (Sarcasm)

But never mind. Nazis are all bad, and Jews are all good. So says the media, the schools, our government, the neoconservatives, and all the rest. Just a few lefty and far-right kooks willing to point out the freakin' obvious. No amount of facts will persuade your average Idiot American that "Israel good. Israel good. Israel never bad. Israel never bad. Me eat cheez whiz. Me watch Oprah now."

Nazi's are all bad, they murdered 6 million jews, and 5 million gays, russians, americans, anything other then jew. As far as israel goes they are the only democracy in the middle east. No country is perfect. Infact, if i were as harm on america, as you are on israel. I would hate america. For israelies, never kept women from voting, and never had slavery.

Duh. People are so dumb. I don't care if you're Jewish and want all Arabs dead or vice-versa, the facts are the facts. And the fact is that Israel is a middle-eastern version of National Socialist Germany, with American funding and Jewish-controlled American media support.

Have you ever been to israel?, have you ever spoken to a jew?. Cause I have been to israel, Ive spoken to many jews. Infact I proudly am one. We dont want to kill all arabs, the Vast majority of israelies want peace. If you would like to see what the palestinains want go to palestinian media watch dot org

I personally don't care if Jews want to act like Nazis. But the fact that everyone lies about it so reflexively just weirds me out.

The fact that your so ignorant amazes me. Israelies dont want their women and children being blown up in pizza parlors, dont want their teens blown up at disco-tecs, and you think the holocaust is a social construct.

Your honestly, not a fair minded person, You should just admit your an anti-semite, and anti-israeli, and just be upfront about it.

Please dont breed lol. We have enough hatred in this world already.
__________________
Race is real. The Holocaust is a social construct.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

I am amazed at the utter ignorance of jose, and william,. They either dont have a brain, or are a complete anti-semite. Israel was re-established in 1948, after the jews were expelled 2000 years earlier. And after the world sat by wand watched jews be gassed. I mean jose , william, and Gabosaurus , atleast think before you open your mouth, it might actually help?

 

[Gurdari]

I am amazed at the utter ignorance of jose, and william,. They either dont have a brain, or are a complete anti-semite. Israel was re-established in 1948, after the jews were expelled 2000 years earlier. And after the world sat by wand watched jews be gassed. I mean jose , william, and Gabosaurus , atleast think before you open your mouth, it might actually help?

On a less emotional note - Israel's government DOES behave in a way that invites much criticism from those who ARE NOT anti-semitic, nor in any way 'prejudiced'... jewish people? Like everyone else.
Israelie government? Terrorists (based on international law).

As someone who has been to Israel (I think you said that) you must be aware that the media there is far more critical and honest about the government than the American news usually is... yes? No?

 

[actsnoblemartin]

I agree that israel like any country is NOT above criticism , and NO, im not saying anyone who criticizes and israeli policy is anti semitic, that is not what im saying. Yes, I am aware that the media in israel, and the israeli people are very politically aware and active, in trying to shape their country. Something the arab states, normally dont get to do to often. Yes, I agree with you the israeli media, is far more critical of itself, and honest then the american media. I dislike the u.s. media strongly.

I do NOT put too much stock into what international law says for these reasons. I believe the U.N. is against the jewish state, the vast majority of the resolutions lately have been against israel, and frankly, the u.n. is kinda useless because it cant make anybody comply (israel included) with their resolutions.

By the way, I really enjoyed your response. I dont say this lightly. I think your an intelligent, fair minded person.

I am sometimes emotional, sorry

 

[Gurdari]

I do NOT put too much stock into what international law says for these reasons. I believe the U.N. is against the jewish state, the vast majority of the resolutions lately have been against israel, and frankly, the u.n. is kinda useless because it cant make anybody comply (israel included) with their resolutions.

Can't help but wonder whom the UN is really 'against'. Look at the vetos from the most powerful member:

1972 Condemns Israel for killing hundreds of people in Syria and Lebanon in air raids.
1973 Affirms the rights of the Palestinians and calls on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.
1976 Condemns Israel for attacking Lebanese civilians.
1976 Condemns Israel for building settlements in the occupied territories. 1976 Calls for self-determination for the Palestinians.
1976 Affirms the rights of the Palestinians.
1978 Criticizes the living conditions of the Palestinians.
1978 Condemns the Israeli human rights record in occupied territories.
1979 Calls for the return of all inhabitants expelled by Israel.
1979 Demands that Israel desist from human rights violations.
1979 Requests a report on living conditions of Palestinians in occupied Arab countries.
1979 Offers assistance to the Palestinian people.
1979 Discusses sovereignty over national resources in occupied Arab territories.
1979 To include Palestinian women in the United Nations Conference on Women.
1980 Requests Israel to return displaced persons.
1980 Condemns Israeli policy regarding the living conditions of the Palestinian people.
1980 Condemns Israeli human rights practices in occupied territories.
1980 Affirms the right of self determination for the Palestinians.
1981 Affirms the right of every state to choose its economic and social system in accord with the will of its people, without outside interference in whatever form it takes.
1981 Condemns Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, human rights policies, and the bombing of Iraq.
1982 Condemns the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.
1982 Condemns the shooting of 11 Muslims at a shrine in Jerusalem by an Israeli soldier.
1982 Calls on Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights occupied in 1967.
1982 Protects against products harmful to health and the environment.
1984 Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon.
1985 Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon.
1985 Condemns Israel for using excessive force in the occupied territories.
1986 Calls on all governments (including the USA) to observe international law.
1986 Condemns Israel for its actions against Lebanese civilians.
1986 Calls on Israel to respect Muslim holy places.
1986 Condemns Israel for sky-jacking a Libyan airliner.
1986 Resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, trade, media bias, the environment and development. 8 resolutions.
1987 Calls on Israel to abide by the Geneva Conventions in its treatment of the Palestinians.
1987 Calls on Israel to stop deporting Palestinians.
1987 Condemns Israel for its actions in Lebanon.
2 resolutions.
1987 Calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon.
1987 Cooperation between the United Nations and the League of Arab States.
1987 Measures to prevent international terrorism, study the underlying political and economic causes of terrorism, convene a conference to define terrorism and to differentiate it from the struggle of people from national liberation.
1988 Condemns Israeli practices against Palestinians in the occupied territories.
1989 Calling for a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict based on earlier UN resolutions.
1990 To send three UN Security Council observers to the occupied territories.
1995 Affirms that land in East Jerusalem annexed by Israel is occupied territory.
1997 Calls on Israel to cease building settlements in East Jerusalem and other occupied territories.
2001 To send unarmed monitors to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
2001 To set up the International Criminal Court.

Again, none of these came to pass. How would you feel about the UN if you lived in Palestine?

 

[Annie]

Can't help but wonder whom the UN is really 'against'. Look at the vetos from the most powerful member:

1972 Condemns Israel for killing hundreds of people in Syria and Lebanon in air raids.
1973 Affirms the rights of the Palestinians and calls on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.
1976 Condemns Israel for attacking Lebanese civilians.
1976 Condemns Israel for building settlements in the occupied territories. 1976 Calls for self-determination for the Palestinians.
1976 Affirms the rights of the Palestinians.
1978 Criticizes the living conditions of the Palestinians.
1978 Condemns the Israeli human rights record in occupied territories.
1979 Calls for the return of all inhabitants expelled by Israel.
1979 Demands that Israel desist from human rights violations.
1979 Requests a report on living conditions of Palestinians in occupied Arab countries.
1979 Offers assistance to the Palestinian people.
1979 Discusses sovereignty over national resources in occupied Arab territories.
1979 To include Palestinian women in the United Nations Conference on Women.
1980 Requests Israel to return displaced persons.
1980 Condemns Israeli policy regarding the living conditions of the Palestinian people.
1980 Condemns Israeli human rights practices in occupied territories.
1980 Affirms the right of self determination for the Palestinians.
1981 Affirms the right of every state to choose its economic and social system in accord with the will of its people, without outside interference in whatever form it takes.
1981 Condemns Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, human rights policies, and the bombing of Iraq.
1982 Condemns the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.
1982 Condemns the shooting of 11 Muslims at a shrine in Jerusalem by an Israeli soldier.
1982 Calls on Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights occupied in 1967.
1982 Protects against products harmful to health and the environment.
1984 Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon.
1985 Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon.
1985 Condemns Israel for using excessive force in the occupied territories.
1986 Calls on all governments (including the USA) to observe international law.
1986 Condemns Israel for its actions against Lebanese civilians.
1986 Calls on Israel to respect Muslim holy places.
1986 Condemns Israel for sky-jacking a Libyan airliner.
1986 Resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, trade, media bias, the environment and development. 8 resolutions.
1987 Calls on Israel to abide by the Geneva Conventions in its treatment of the Palestinians.
1987 Calls on Israel to stop deporting Palestinians.
1987 Condemns Israel for its actions in Lebanon.
2 resolutions.
1987 Calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon.
1987 Cooperation between the United Nations and the League of Arab States.
1987 Measures to prevent international terrorism, study the underlying political and economic causes of terrorism, convene a conference to define terrorism and to differentiate it from the struggle of people from national liberation.
1988 Condemns Israeli practices against Palestinians in the occupied territories.
1989 Calling for a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict based on earlier UN resolutions.
1990 To send three UN Security Council observers to the occupied territories.
1995 Affirms that land in East Jerusalem annexed by Israel is occupied territory.
1997 Calls on Israel to cease building settlements in East Jerusalem and other occupied territories.
2001 To send unarmed monitors to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
2001 To set up the International Criminal Court.

Again, none of these came to pass. How would you feel about the UN if you lived in Palestine?

That US vetoes is not the UN, believe me, the peaceful Palis get it.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

Can't help but wonder whom the UN is really 'against'. Look at the vetos from the most powerful member:

With all due respect brother gurdari. Those resolutions are over-whelmingly pro-palestinian/anti-israeli. If that is not a clear cut case of bias in favor of the palestinians, I dont know what is. Thank god, in my humble opinion, that the israelies have such a powerful friend in the west, seeing how they have so many who want to walk them into the sea in the east.