Those Peaceful People-Let's 'Give' Them Their Own State

[Gurdari]

to be against one country, while saying nothing to condemn another.

They have nothing about palestinian terror, such as hamas, hezbollah, etc. And they didnt enforce 1559.

The israeli government tells the israeli military what to do, and the israeli military is reponsible for protecting the israeli people. Unlike any other country. Israel is under constant threat of being wiped off the map. So yeah, I stand by israel. Does that mean i support every policy, not neccesarily. I would have to look at each individual policy. But if the u.n. wants credibility with me, or any fair minded people. Start condeming the palestinians for their terrorism and violence.

So, we agree there are many countries that deserve resolutions, many nations that are disagreeable, law-breakers, etc. Great.

Back to the topic - Israel does horrible, illegal, violent shit all the time. IS that worth condemning? I personally would condemn it if it was anyone else... slap Egypt, Turkey, Myanmar, China, Russia, USA, etc in that group too. Israel helps create terrorism against it by acting as a state terrorist.
They have OVERWHELMING military superiority in that region, are you shure they fear being wiped from the map? Iran and Syria togther would crumble in a full-scale war with Israel... Palestinians have weapons that can really only irritate israel - not destroy it.

However, let's ask a few questions:

Do you think occupation is a good thing?
Do you think international law is a good thing?
Do you think treating people equally is a good thing?
How do you think Israelies would act if they were under occupation by Palestinians, and the UN was 'vetoed' out of helping them by one nation (let's say... Russia for example)? Would they lay down and take it?

 

[Gurdari]

With israel, they are not trying to kill everybody, that is just wrong and you know it. The jews have 20% of their citizens are not jews. They are muslims. Name me one muslim country that can say that?

Secondly, there is a huge debate about settlements. There are some who say, keep them as is, get rid of them , put more of them. Thats an honest debate. But to say israel, is around trying to kill everyone is dishonest. Israel gave back tons of land to egypt for peace, israel has given back land to the palestinians, in the form of 80% of settlements in hebron are gone, gaza has been given back, and arafat had been given the offer of 95% of the west bank. Now, while some jews in israel dont want peace, they are not the majority, they are a minority, in the palestinian terroritories, the palestinains encourage violence and hatred of the jews and america. Again, i wanna be clear, criticism is fine, but it has to go both ways. You cant have politically correct criticism, where i cant criticism islam or muslims, but everyone can criticism christians and israel.

One more thing, if israel really wanted to expand, they would take over lebanon, jordan, and syria. Syria is probably the weakest country. Lebanon the 2nd weakest. Who would stop those so called evil expansionist lol (no i didnt say you said that).

The israelies, have the right and moral obligations for all their people, jews, christians, muslims alike to make whatever borders are neccesary for survival. Can their debate and discussion on what those final borders should be, or course!. But lets not let europe's history of expansion off the hook, and lets not let the bloody muslim history of expansion off the hook either ok?

there is a huge disparity between Israelie and Palestinian power. When Arabs occupy Tel Aviv, and force Jews through checkpoints, bulldoze their homes, fire missiles into home, shell civillians (as a government directive) then criticism should be spread over more parties... but one nation has the power.

Settlements? Against the law. Clearly. Those who advocate them are anti-international law. The land 'given' back is the shit land Israel keeps the good stuff, builds a wall through other land carving out more illegal space and basically saying 'Fuck you Palestinians' we do what we want. Peace is easy to achieve if Israel wants it - contrary to your post - most Palestinians want peace, Hamas even says the future is a two-state solution.

Look at the old 'peace' agreements, Oslo accord, camp david, they have an unequal distribution of power, land, and make one side (guess which) jump through hoops while the other gets to carry on as it pleases.... sounds fair!

 

[Annie]

there is a huge disparity between Israelie and Palestinian power. When Arabs occupy Tel Aviv, and force Jews through checkpoints, bulldoze their homes, fire missiles into home, shell civillians (as a government directive) then criticism should be spread over more parties... but one nation has the power.

Settlements? Against the law. Clearly. Those who advocate them are anti-international law. The land 'given' back is the shit land Israel keeps the good stuff, builds a wall through other land carving out more illegal space and basically saying 'Fuck you Palestinians' we do what we want. Peace is easy to achieve if Israel wants it - contrary to your post - most Palestinians want peace, Hamas even says the future is a two-state solution.

Look at the old 'peace' agreements, Oslo accord, camp david, they have an unequal distribution of power, land, and make one side (guess which) jump through hoops while the other gets to carry on as it pleases.... sounds fair!

Which land in the territories or Israel is 'good land'? I mean without the improvements? Certainly the 'resort' areas, and those are where?

 

[Gurdari]

Which land in the territories or Israel is 'good land'? I mean without the improvements? Certainly the 'resort' areas, and those are where?

Not resort areas, I mean the physical geography - not what has been done to it. Water, vegetation opportunity, the 'quality' of the land for humans, so to speak...

 

[Annie]

Not resort areas, I mean the physical geography - not what has been done to it. Water, vegetation opportunity, the 'quality' of the land for humans, so to speak...

That too was what I was referring to. What do you propose? Where is 'the good land?'

 

[actsnoblemartin]

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UN, Israel, Palestine, International law
Quote:
Originally Posted by actsnoblemartin View Post
to be against one country, while saying nothing to condemn another.

They have nothing about palestinian terror, such as hamas, hezbollah, etc. And they didnt enforce 1559.

The israeli government tells the israeli military what to do, and the israeli military is reponsible for protecting the israeli people. Unlike any other country. Israel is under constant threat of being wiped off the map. So yeah, I stand by israel. Does that mean i support every policy, not neccesarily. I would have to look at each individual policy. But if the u.n. wants credibility with me, or any fair minded people. Start condeming the palestinians for their terrorism and violence.
So, we agree there are many countries that deserve resolutions, many nations that are disagreeable, law-breakers, etc. Great.

Back to the topic - Israel does horrible, illegal, violent shit all the time. IS that worth condemning? I personally would condemn it if it was anyone else... slap Egypt, Turkey, Myanmar, China, Russia, USA, etc in that group too.

Atleast your fair. Your not anti-israeli, because your willing to call it as you see it, whether I agree with you or not, you have proved your a fair minded individual willing to criticize anyone you see as wrong in your eyes, and that takes courage.

Israel helps create terrorism against it by acting as a state terrorist.

I disagree here, as early as 1929, when the arab riots took place, and even before then, when jews lived side by side (as second class citizens of the ottoman empire), the hatred of the jews, is evident not only by the palestinians but in the world, turning its back on the jews from 1933-1945, including the u.s.a.

They have OVERWHELMING military superiority in that region, are you shure they fear being wiped from the map?

If Iran, could get a nuke, powerful enough, I believe they would try to wipe israel off the map.

Iran and Syria togther would crumble in a full-scale war with Israel... Palestinians have weapons that can really only irritate israel - not destroy it.

with all due respect (im not being sarcastic or patronizing), it depends, iran, could not conquer israel, but if iran gets a nuke, and israel has to invade them, to stop it, Im not sure israel could do it alone without america.

However, let's ask a few questions:

Do you think occupation is a good thing? I think this question is too simplistic. Do you know, of the occupation of much of the world by muslim after mohammed died between 632-656, and they still occupy those countries. What about lebanon, which used to be 50% christian, and which is now barely 30%. In every muslim country, non-muslims and women are treating as second class citizens. Now, back to your original question. Context, is an important thing. WE must ask ourselves how did this occupation start?, why does it continue. It started in 1948, the jews escaping, near annihilation in europe seek refuge in israel, before then, some jews, bought un-developed land in israel. Now, in 1948, palestinians were offered a 2 state solution, but instead rejecting, infact official orders by the palestinian government were given to leave there homes, now some also left because it was a war zone, and some were driven from there homes by israel, but only because palestinians and other countries, tried to kill the jews and prevent israel from forming. In 1967, jews were about to be wiped off the map by a bunch of arab countries, but instead after failed attempts to plead for peace, they stopped the arabs from attacking, and took the west bank and gaza in a war. Now, if you would like to have true social justice. You should give back every inch of america, and europe, to the original inhabitants, because we are all occupiers or someone's land. Every country has conquered some other country, and all israel has done has reclaim its land. Palestine is an artificial creation of the romans, as a reference to a people who are no longer around and not affiliated with the palestinians called the philistines. Now, do the palestines deserve a homeland, Of course. As soon as they renounce violence, and disband all the terror groups. Occupation is not a valid reason to blow up kids at pizza parlors and attack innocent civilians.

Do you think international law is a good thing? yes and no, international law can be bad, because many hate the u.s. and israel, and an individual country, technically speaking, should do whats best for itself, its a murky area.

Do you think treating people equally is a good thing? No i do not, I would not treat evil people and good people the same. I would not treat child molestors, rapists, terrorists, the same as innocent civilians. So by definition, my answer is no.

How do you think Israelies would act if they were under occupation by Palestinians, and the UN was 'vetoed' out of helping them by one nation (let's say... Russia for example)? Would they lay down and take it?

They have been under occupation by arab, the turks (ottoman empire) christians, and the british. I agree israel would not like it, if the u.n. condemned the palestinians for everything, and israel for nothing, and russia vetoed every single resolution.

As far as the settlements go, at this point... I am not in favor of the settlements. I say, lets get rid of every settlement in the west bank, build a security fence/permanent border that keeps israel safe, even if we have to take part of the west bank, and let the palestinians run the west bank, since their doing such a great job in gaza.

I may not agree with you on everything BUT, I have a very high level of respect for you because your an intellectual, a thinker, and atleast I know you are not just, israel evil, palestinians perfect.

good day sir.

__________________
Freedom is free - oppression costs money.

 

[Gurdari]

Unlike any other country. Israel is under constant threat of being wiped off the map. So yeah, I stand by israel. Does that mean i support every policy, not neccesarily. I would have to look at each individual policy. But if the u.n. wants credibility with me, or any fair minded people. Start condeming the palestinians for their terrorism and violence.

Israel is not resisting occupation, they are illegally occupying and oppressing a population. Big difference. Resistance against occupation is LEGAL. And really, if two murderes are accused and one gets let off on a technicality - the other one is STILL GUILTY, no? Meaning you DO agree Israel is a criminal state, you just believe Palestine is ALSO a criminal state. Please remember the disproportionate balance of power as well...

Atleast your fair. Your not anti-israeli, because your willing to call it as you see it, whether I agree with you or not, you have proved your a fair minded individual willing to criticize anyone you see as wrong in your eyes, and that takes courage.

I don't care about who does it - it's the context, reasoning, actions, and goals that are important... as soon as Palestinians are overwhelmingly superior in terms of military, technology, money, power, and allies - and they start doing to Israelie what Israel is doing to Palestinians - yes - I'll happily fight the underdog's fight against the oppressors, be they Palestinian, or otherwise.

GURDARI said: Israel helps create terrorism against it by acting as a state terrorist.

I disagree here, as early as 1929, when the arab riots took place, and even before then, when jews lived side by side (as second class citizens of the ottoman empire), the hatred of the jews, is evident not only by the palestinians but in the world, turning its back on the jews from 1933-1945, including the u.s.a.

Not an answer - Israel is CREATING terrorism now. By oppressing people, and creating resentment and doing so illegally. Agree or disagree, but because Europe was shitty to jews isn't an 'okay' for Israel to fuck up Palestinians.

If Iran, could get a nuke, powerful enough, I believe they would try to wipe israel off the map.

Okay, that's your opinion. Shared by others no doubt. Israel HAS nukes, and Iran also sees what happens to nations who DO NOT have nukes - they get fucked by either USA (Iraq, Nicaragua, Panama, Grenada, Libya, Sudan) or Israel (Iraq, Lebanon). So it's a clear situation - GET NUKES OR SUFFER BOMBARDMENT AND OR INVASION.

with all due respect (im not being sarcastic or patronizing), it depends, iran, could not conquer israel, but if iran gets a nuke, and israel has to invade them, to stop it, Im not sure israel could do it alone without america.

If Iran had a nuke - why the hell would Israel invade? They would just fire away, having been given pre-emptive pretext to annihilate.

Do you know, of the occupation of much of the world by muslim after mohammed died between 632-656, and they still occupy those countries. What about lebanon, which used to be 50% christian, and which is now barely 30%.

So demographics change over time... are you saying Lebanon is slightly more Muslim because of an invasion, or military occupation? And 'much of the world'? North America? Northern Europe? East Asia? Australia? help.

In every muslim country, non-muslims and women are treating as second class citizens. Now, back to your original question. Context, is an important thing. WE must ask ourselves how did this occupation start?, why does it continue.

Whoa! Every one? Turkey and Lebanon count? The occupation started during war I believe, but technically started by UN declaration that British controlled Palestine was to become a new nation carved up by UN/Britain... imagine it was India as the British ended colonial rule and they carved it up and said uh, we're making a new country here, deal with it. And yes - why does the occupation continue? I would love to know...

It started in 1948, the jews escaping, near annihilation in europe seek refuge in israel, before then, some jews, bought un-developed land in israel.

Escaping jews were in no position to occupy another country by force...

Now, in 1948, palestinians were offered a 2 state solution, but instead rejecting, infact official orders by the palestinian government were given to leave there homes, now some also left because it was a war zone, and some were driven from there homes by israel, but only because palestinians and other countries, tried to kill the jews and prevent israel from forming.

They disagree with the premise another country can be imposed on the natives... so do I. And the right of those to return to their homes is 'off the table' according to Olmert, who they fuck is he to say that? Imagine I said HE coudn't go home? Ridiculous. And the crap about Israel losing it's jewishness due to so many more arab births is a racist argument (not your argument - one I read in today's paper).

In 1967, jews were about to be wiped off the map by a bunch of arab countries, but instead after failed attempts to plead for peace, they stopped the arabs from attacking, and took the west bank and gaza in a war. Now, if you would like to have true social justice. You should give back every inch of america, and europe, to the original inhabitants, because we are all occupiers or someone's land.

They were about to be wiped off the map? Failed attempts at peace? WFT are you talking about? Describe this 'peace' offered, every proposal I've read is quite discriminatory in favor of Israel, but if you know of any that are even handed - please post.

Haha - nice comparison - sort of true. We should give much, much land to the natives of N. America. I agree, they should be free to enact their own laws, nation, whatever they choose. I would happily move if that came to be. As for the reality right now - they are not being assasinated, having their homes bulldozed, no checkpoints, but they are having theirland fucked with and stolen still... and the UN has condemned that rightly so. I agree woth the UN condemnation - Canada (as an example) is a fucking racist imperial state in how the native populatrion is treated, they actually live in worse squalor than some Iraqis.

Every country has conquered some other country, and all israel has done has reclaim its land. Palestine is an artificial creation of the romans, as a reference to a people who are no longer around and not affiliated with the palestinians called the philistines. Now, do the palestines deserve a homeland, Of course. As soon as they renounce violence, and disband all the terror groups. Occupation is not a valid reason to blow up kids at pizza parlors and attack innocent civilians.

Not every country, but Israel is not reclaiming it's land. Land belongs to those who live or lived there - so it belongs to Jews, Muslims, Christians. Not Just jews. And how come only THEY have to renounce violence and terror? Why not BOTH sides? That's the other BS with 'peace' accords.

Do you think international law is a good thing? yes and no, international law can be bad, because many hate the u.s. and israel, and an individual country, technically speaking, should do whats best for itself, its a murky area.

Whoa - do you think local or national law is a good thing? Should people just do what's best for themselves? Disregarding the law? Do you wanna live in a society like that? Law is for all -applied to all. Child molesters and other are subject to the same laws I am - you are. Makes sense to me...

Do you think treating people equally is a good thing? No i do not, I would not treat evil people and good people the same. I would not treat child molestors, rapists, terrorists, the same as innocent civilians. So by definition, my answer is no.

yes you would - you treat people the same way if they commit the same crimes, right? If some total asshole kills an old lady, and some nice guy kills an old lady -SAME CRIME, SAME PUNISHMENT.

They have been under occupation by arab, the turks (ottoman empire) christians, and the british. I agree israel would not like it, if the u.n. condemned the palestinians for everything, and israel for nothing, and russia vetoed every single resolution.

haha, nice words in my mouth. I do that too. Anyhow, yes Israel would resist occupation, and they would do so any way they could. If they don't care about international law now - why would they if they were under occupation? They wouldn't.

As far as the settlements go, at this point... I am not in favor of the settlements. I say, lets get rid of every settlement in the west bank, build a security fence/permanent border that keeps israel safe, even if we have to take part of the west bank, and let the palestinians run the west bank, since their doing such a great job in gaza.

Sure, I mean if I invade your house and make a room for my family - you (I assume) would resist that. So would the police. Unless you could kick the crap out of the police. "let' the palestinians run gaza...how generous, should I 'let' you live as you like, or should that decision be yours, not mine?

I may not agree with you on everything BUT, I have a very high level of respect for you because your an intellectual, a thinker, and atleast I know you are not just, israel evil, palestinians perfect.

I think violent state terror creates stateless terror. Cause and effect. People and nations that oppress, or create conditions where many people are subjected to violence are making the world worse (if you have nothing to gain from strife and violence - some have LOTS to gain $$$).

 

[Annie]

Gurdari, I'm still waiting your suggestions on what is the 'good land' that you think the Palestinians should have 'returned'.

 

[boedicca]

It's rather ironic that they are fighting over the only land in the area without oil.

 

[Annie]

It's rather ironic that they are fighting over the only land in the area without oil.

Yes, natural resources there are scarce. Problems with fresh water as well as lack of oil. The Israelis have managed to make desalination affordable, at least in limited amounts:

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...edu&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=firefox-a

WATER AND PEACE
Franklin M. Fisher
It is often said that water will be the source of the next war in the Middle East -- indeed, that water conflicts all around the globe will arise in the next century. In the Israeli-Syrian negotiations, a major issue as to the return of the Golan is reported to be control of the water sources there. In the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, water is one of the "final-status" issues and
a potential obstacle to a lasting peace agreement.

It does not have to be like that. Rational thinking about water and water agreements shows that water can be a source of cooperation rather than of conflict and that, in a very precise sense, water is not worth war....

Then of course, there was the Palestinians choices with the opportunities possible in Gaza when the land was returned. What they did:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/02/ny_times_the_go.html

Lots of links and pics back to NYTimes, the apologist and others that show the distortion of the times reporting:

SEPT. 2005: A Palestinian carries a plastic roll he took Tuesday from a greenhouse, background, at the evacuated Jewish settlement of Neve Dekalim in the Gaza Strip

In some instances, there was no security and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said. MSNBC

Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia implored Palestinians to leave the structures intact, even as people scavenged through debris elsewhere in the settlement. Atlas Shrugs /14/05​

Only the Times would have the unmitigated gall to rewrite history and use Palestinian and rebuilding in the same sentence. Power without accountability. The esteemed Ed Lasky over at American Thinker, click here. (hat tip Larwyn)

Greg Myre of the New York Times writes of Gaza today ("Israelis Are Gone, but Gaza Rebuilding Is Slow"). Of particular note are greenhouses which cost $14 million, purchased as a gift to the Palestinians by Americans (many of them Jewish), in hopes they would become part of a viable economy.

The settlements also came with greenhouses that offered the prospect of thousands of agricultural jobs. Yet the greenhouses sit idle.

The Palestinians invested millions of dollars to repair the greenhouses shortly after the Israelis left, and had an excellent crop in the winter of 2005 and 2006. But they were unable to export their produce to Europe, the main market, because Israel kept Gaza's main crossing for goods closed for weeks at a time, citing security concerns.​

The Palis did what? They destroyed those greenhouses.

Short of money and fearing a similar fate this year, the Palestinians did not plant a winter crop in the greenhouses. But the goods crossing has been mostly open in recent weeks, when the crops would have been ready for export.

The Palestinian Agriculture Ministry says it will soon start renting the greenhouses to private farmers and will encourage them to grow for the local market, since there are no guarantees that fruits, vegetables and flowers can be exported in a timely manner.

Another point: It is also odd how the NYT, which favors abortion and population control efforts, not only fails to see problems from Palestinians having 8 or 9 or more children per family. On the contrary, it seems to see such large families as a reason to castigate the Israelis for bringing so much heartbreak to so many family members.
​

Remember this Atlas post from September 14, 2005 Palis Loot their future, here?

"These greenhouses are for the Palestinian people," he said. "We don't want anyone to touch or harm anything that can be useful for our people." His plea did little good. Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia implored Palestinians to leave the structures intact, even as people scavenged through debris elsewhere in the settlement.

Greenhouses_1

American Jewish donors had bought more than 3,000 greenhouses from Israeli settlers in Gaza for $14 million last month, and transferred them to the Palestinian Authority. Former World Bank President James Wolfensohn, who brokered the deal, put up $500,000 of his own cash. More

​

The New York Times is dangerous.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

Israel is occupying the west bank and gaza, but it is not illegal because it won it legally in a war that it did not start from the original occupier jordan, in 1967. When along with many other countries, were threatening israel with annihilation, and unlike, the 1940's jews were not going to wait around to be annihilated. So, in a just war, Israel took ownership of the west bank and gaza.

Israel must do whatever is neccesary to protect its people and its economy, and until the palestinians dis-band its terrorist groups and renounce violence, they deserve all they get. Its harsh, but its the truth in my judgment. As far as resistence, they are not freedom fighters, or resisters, they are terrorists bent on the destruction of israel and the death of all the jews in israel. The palestinians did not complain of occupation until the jews took gaza and the west bank, funny though, jordan occupied it for almost 20 years. The jewish state is legal, declared by the british in the balfour document, and the palestinians are nothing more then arabs, a false creating of the romans, who stole the land from its original owners, the jewish people, promised the land by god himself.

Now, as the jews, and the world learned in WWII, if someone says they are going to do something, they mean it. Iran does not need a ton of nuke too wipe tiny israel off the map, and israel cannot allow a 2nd holocaust, when the president of iran, doesnt believe the first one happened.

The muslims occupy 57 countries, that were once christian, and jewish. They expelled every jew, after the state of israel was born, so the palestinian and arab countries are hypocritical at best.




You are correct about britain, but please dont forget france as well carved up the middle east, and put in dictators. They had the right to, they wont the war in WWI, I think it was stupid. The ottomans, killed 1.5 million armenian christians, and the kurds got stuck in between iraq, iran ,and turkey. And we already agreed on the occupation ideas.

The jews did not take another country by force, the balfour document, gave them the homeland , and the u.n. voted for it. If the arabs, didnt start a war to destory israel, and tell them to flee their homes, cause they thought they would win, we would never have this mess.

Its not racist, when you have 5 million jews in israel, not counting the territories, and then u let 5-6 million arabs come into israel?. They have more kids then the jews. The sad reality is they will swallow up the jewish state and make it the 58 or 59 muslim state and eventually all the jews will be killed , expelled or live as 2nd class citizens in palestine, with no more jewish state.

2000, 95% of west bank and all of gaza offered and most jews want peace.






Quote:
Originally Posted by actsnoblemartin View Post
Every country has conquered some other country, and all israel has done has reclaim its land. Palestine is an artificial creation of the romans, as a reference to a people who are no longer around and not affiliated with the palestinians called the philistines. Now, do the palestines deserve a homeland, Of course. As soon as they renounce violence, and disband all the terror groups. Occupation is not a valid reason to blow up kids at pizza parlors and attack innocent civilians.

Im all for giving the palestinians a state when they demonstrate they deserve it, no more terror attacks, no more terror groups, no more teaching their kids to hate. They have to want peace too.


It depends, who has the best law, local, national or international.

Same crime, same punishment, but law breaker, does not equal law obeyer

The Jews, resisted the british occupation, by blowing up a hotel, they called 2 hours ahead, and warned everyone. When did the palestinians give a warning?. The jews did not blown everyone up for 2,000 years, yet, the palestinians, different story.


Gaza is being runned into the ground, soon the west bank will be too

I think evil people, make evil decision, arabs should not blame others, for their own problems. same with americans, or anyone else. And yes, I hate haliburton , by the way.

 

[Gurdari]

Gurdari, I'm still waiting your suggestions on what is the 'good land' that you think the Palestinians should have 'returned'.

"I'm not doing your homework." - Kathianne

 

[Annie]

"I'm not doing your homework." - Kathianne

Bottom line, you knew that was a red herring. Again, why should they have their own state, rewarded by force?

 

[Gurdari]

Bottom line, you knew that was a red herring. Again, why should they have their own state, rewarded by force?

...that isn't the bottom line.

And I have no idea why Israel should be rewarded for using force. Or by force.

Look up the land and all that if you're actually interested - but otherwise I say either Israel should agree that might makes right and live with it - or say peace is the mature way to a sustainable future - and act like they mean it.

But no more of this condemnation of one side for being violent while acting even worse themselves.

 

[Gurdari]

As far as resistence, they are not freedom fighters, or resisters, they are terrorists bent on the destruction of israel and the death of all the jews in israel.

They are resisting an occupation - you used the UN as a source showing Israel is legal - now the UN is wrong about occupation and resistance? Which is it? Is the UN 'the law' or not? You can't have it both ways if you plan on referring to the UN to make an argument.

The jewish state is legal, declared by the british in the balfour document, and the palestinians are nothing more then arabs, a false creating of the romans, who stole the land from its original owners, the jewish people, promised the land by god himself.

Nothing more than arabs? What does that mean? Jews are nothing more than arabs, Europeans, asians, africans, etc. Like Christians, muslims, atheists, etc. There's no Palestinian DNA, or Jewish DNA... just people who have a religious attachment to a certain area and some more than others have a native link to the area in question. Stole the land? Maybe the ruling elites of the day 'decreed' the land should be theirs - that would make it right, no?

Its not racist, when you have 5 million jews in israel, not counting the territories, and then u let 5-6 million arabs come into israel?. They have more kids then the jews.

That is exactly what racism is. We don't want our purity ruined by arabs having more babies.

Im all for giving the palestinians a state when they demonstrate they deserve it, no more terror attacks, no more terror groups, no more teaching their kids to hate. They have to want peace too.

Sadly, it's not your decision - please stow some of the arrogance here. Or can Saudis decide what happens to Israel? Or can China decide if Quebec separates? Perhaps allowing people to determine their own fate is a step in the right direction?
When will Israel demonstrate that it is no longer a terrorist state? Or does Israel get a pass cause they have some serious fucking weaponry?

 

[Annie]

...that isn't the bottom line.

And I have no idea why Israel should be rewarded for using force. Or by force.

Look up the land and all that if you're actually interested - but otherwise I say either Israel should agree that might makes right and live with it - or say peace is the mature way to a sustainable future - and act like they mean it.

But no more of this condemnation of one side for being violent while acting even worse themselves.

It's becoming more and more clear you haven't any idea of the disputes or the region.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by actsnoblemartin
As far as resistence, they are not freedom fighters, or resisters, they are terrorists bent on the destruction of israel and the death of all the jews in israel.

They are resisting an occupation - you used the UN as a source showing Israel is legal - now the UN is wrong about occupation and resistance? Which is it? Is the UN 'the law' or not? You can't have it both ways if you plan on referring to the UN to make an argument.

Wrong. They are not resisting an occupation, they are trying to destory israel. They started numerous wars against israel, 1948, 1956,1967, and when you threaten a country with destruction, and then a war ensues, you lose land. That is legal. Israel owned this land, legally, 2000 years ago, and was exiled illegally by the romans, then the british, decided to give it back to its rightful owners, the west bank and gaza used to be called judea and sumaria, both owned by the jews. Then the U.N. decided to give it back to jews formerly. But, then the u.n. turned into the united nazi, how you ask?, by every resolution you provided that was blantantly anti-israel. They lost all credibitility with israel, and america. And israel and america, do whats best for their countries, not the anti-american, anti-israel u.n. Things change, the u.n. wasnt always a bunch of thugs, now it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by actsnoblemartin
The jewish state is legal, declared by the british in the balfour document, and the palestinians are nothing more then arabs, a false creating of the romans, who stole the land from its original owners, the jewish people, promised the land by god himself.

Nothing more than arabs? What does that mean? Jews are nothing more than arabs, Europeans, asians, africans, etc. Like Christians, muslims, atheists, etc. There's no Palestinian DNA, or Jewish DNA... just people who have a religious attachment to a certain area and some more than others have a native link to the area in question. Stole the land? Maybe the ruling elites of the day 'decreed' the land should be theirs - that would make it right, no?

Jews are a race, they descended from the original 12 tribes of israel, but you are right, after they were exiled they ended up all over, and today we do have all different races of jews, my point was, no such thing as a palestinian, palestinian = arab. My understanding was, back in the day, the arabs were mostly a nomadic people, but i will not for the sake of honesty, and accuracy deny that arabs were living in ancient day israel, nor will deny christians, and probably pagans and others. But the point is, the present day palestinians, the majority of them, want to kill all the jews, and take all the land, when we know the land of israel is sacred to not only jews and muslims but christians as well. Therefore in theory atleast, if the muslims (arabs) of israel (or palestine) could ever get their act together and stop all terrorism, they could have a state, they could of had it in 1948. The arabs of palestine never owned israel. It was the brits, the turks, the jews, christians, but never the arabs of anciest israel/palestine/modern day israel.



Quote:
Originally Posted by actsnoblemartin
Its not racist, when you have 5 million jews in israel, not counting the territories, and then u let 5-6 million arabs come into israel?. They have more kids then the jews.

That is exactly what racism is. We don't want our purity ruined by arabs having more babies.

No, you do not get it. If israel is 5 million JEWS, and 6 million NON-jews come into israel, you will not have a JEWISH state. And since the non jews were talking about have 57 states, and many of them want to drive the jews into the sea, your racism argument does NOT hold the water. Its not about racism, its about survival.


Quote:
Originally Posted by actsnoblemartin
Im all for giving the palestinians a state when they demonstrate they deserve it, no more terror attacks, no more terror groups, no more teaching their kids to hate. They have to want peace too.

Sadly, it's not your decision - please stow some of the arrogance here.

I never said it was my decision, as far as arrogance goes. Do you want palestinians having a state, when the goal of hamas, islamic jihad, and most palestinians is too destory israel?. Yes or no, i dont want a moral equivalent answer here.

Or can Saudis decide what happens to Israel?

If saudi arabia had a choice, israel would be destroyed.

Or can China decide if Quebec separates? China, has place in this discussion, they trade with evil people.

Perhaps allowing people to determine their own fate is a step in the right direction?

Not when those people, want to destory another country.

When will Israel demonstrate that it is no longer a terrorist state?

Israel is not, and has never been a terrorist state, with all due respect, and i mean that, your flat out wrong on that.

Or does Israel get a pass cause they have some serious fucking weaponry?

Israel does not get a pass, do you read the muslim press in the 57 countries, and left wing slime in america?. Its disgusting.

If you really wanna say israel is a terrorist state, then almost all states are terrorists, look at america, england, germany, china, japan, most countries, could be consider terrorists, including the majority of muslims countries.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

And I have no idea why Israel should be rewarded for using force. Or by force.

Look up the land and all that if you're actually interested - but otherwise I say either Israel should agree that might makes right and live with it - or say peace is the mature way to a sustainable future - and act like they mean it.

But no more of this condemnation of one side for being violent while acting even worse themselves.

"Let me put it this way to my esteemed friend gurdari, if israel laid down all its weapons their would be another holocaust, if their arabs put down all their weapons, their would be peace"

I forgot who said it