This just in: Muslims are violent People...Merged With Here We Go Again

[Annie]

Even UK getting it:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/...xml&sSheet=/opinion/2006/09/16/ixopinion.html

The Pope's message of greater dialogue achieves the opposite
By Melanie McDonagh
(Filed: 16/09/2006)

Comment on this story Read comments

There is, I am afraid, such a thing as being too clever by half. Pope Benedict is a case in point. He is a former academic and this week he addressed a gathering of other academics at a university in Regensburg. In this congenial environment, he let himself go and delivered a nuanced address on the subject of faith and reason, snappily titled "Three Stages in the Programme of De-Hellenisation". The gist, to spare you the trouble of looking it up, is that belief in God is entirely consistent with human reason and the Greek spirit of philosophical inquiry. By using the reason God gave us, we become, in a way, more like him. Fair enough, you might think. No harm in that.

But there was, of course. If the Pope had stuck to quoting Plato (which he did) to illustrate his point, he wouldn't now be in the position of, as the Muslim News put it, alienating a billion Muslims. His mistake was to cite a series of dialogues between a learned Byzantine emperor and a scholarly Persian Muslim about the truth of their respective religions, which was probably written while Constantinople was being besieged by the Turks. The emperor in question, Manuel II Paleologus, referred during the seventh dialogue to the Koran's teachings about spreading the faith by the sword. And this, said the emperor, could not come from God because violence was the opposite of reason, and God himself cannot act contrary to reason.

What interested the Pope was the emperor's insistence that God's nature meant that he cannot act irrationally. Unfortunately, Benedict quoted verbatim from the emperor's words: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." And this remark, which the Pope described as "rather marginal to the dialogue itself", was what almost every prominent Muslim has seized on. It wasn't so much that the remarks got lost in translation from the German – it was the quotation marks.
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The very fact that the Pope cited the adjectives "evil and inhuman" was taken as evidence that he agreed with them. As a British Muslim youth organisation, the Ramadhan Foundation, said crossly, "If the Pope wanted to attack Islam… he could have been brave enough to say it personally without quoting a 14th century Byzantine emperor." In fact, the Pope was out to attack something very different – the contemporary, secular idea that faith is simply a matter of personal opinion. If he's having a go at anything, it's not Islam, it's the patronising notion that you get, say, in David Hare's play Galileo, playing to rave reviews at the National Theatre, that religion is incompatible with independent thought.

And indeed, with conspicuous exceptions, the reaction from the Islamic world hasn't been what you might call measured. Admittedly, it was easy to take the Pope's remarks out of context, given that it takes a bit of effort to track down his address in full, or indeed to understand it. But not impossible – yet hardly anyone seems to have made the effort. The row has yet to escalate to the level of the Danish cartoon controversy, but it's not looking good.

The Pakistani parliament unanimously called on the Pope to retract "this objectionable statement". The head of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt declared that he had "aroused the anger of the whole Islamic world".

Ali Bardakoglu, the head of Turkey's state-run directorate of religious affairs, called the Pope's remarks "provocative, hostile, prejudiced and biased". The deputy leader of the Turkish ruling AK party, Salih Kapusuz, got off the fence to declare that "he has a dark mentality that comes from the darkness of the Middle Ages… Benedict, the author of such unfortunate and insolent remarks is going down in history for his words… in the same category as leaders such as Hitler and Mussolini".

And in Lebanon, the Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah demanded an apology for this "false reading of Islam".

In fact, the speech itself suggested that the Pope understood perfectly well that there are nuances to the Islamic idea of jihad. He cites an early verse in the Koran that "there is no compulsion in religion". And in respect of the verses that exhort Muslims to take up arms for the faith – and no, we're not talking merely about a spiritual struggle, but the real thing – he notes that there are differences between Mohammed's treatment of Christians and Jews, and of pagans.

If you're looking for a real critique of Islam in the speech, there is one tucked away in the text, but hardly anyone noticed. The Pope suggests that the Islamic idea of God is so transcendent that he cannot be seen in terms of human reason. He cites one medieval Islamic scholar, Ibn Hazn, who says that God is entirely remote from our rational categories.

This may not sound like much to get worked up about, but Benedict plainly sees this approach as the opposite of the Christian way of looking at faith and reason. And indeed, a Rome-based Muslim theologian, Adnane Mokrani, has pointed out that this is only one Islamic view of God's nature, and other schools of Muslim thought are very different. Now that's proper religious dialogue.

As for the Pope's notional Islamophobia, he's had rather a good record until now in terms of the issues that agitate Muslims. He was sympathetic to their reaction to the Danish cartoons, and he was strongly opposed to the conflict in Lebanon and the war in Iraq.

The irony of this row is that it is the opposite of what the Pope was trying to achieve. Benedict ended his speech by hoping for a new dialogue between the sciences, religions and cultures "which is so urgently needed today". It looks, from this miserable episode, as if you can only have a conversation that deals – however remotely – with Islam on Muslim terms. Not much of a dialogue, then.

 

[nt250]

You can find good and bad people and sects within practically any mainline religion. You can select particular sentences, translate and interpret them to suit your own prejudices, and misapply them in modern times. See the following passages:

You who believe! Enter absolutely into peace (Islam). Do not follow in the footsteps of Satan. He is an outright enemy to you.
But as for those who break God's contract after it has been agreed and sever what God has commanded to be joined, and cause corruption in the earth, the curse will be upon them. They will have the Evil Abode. (Surat ar-Ra'd: 25)

Seek the abode of the hereafter with what God has given you, without forgetting your portion of the world. And do good as God has been good to you. And do not seek to cause mischief on earth. God does not love mischief makers.' (Surat al-Qasas: 77)

There is no compulsion in religion. Right guidance has become clearly distinct from error. Anyone who rejects false gods and believes in God has grasped the Firmest Handhold, which will never give way. God is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. (Surat al-Baqara: 256)

So remind, you need only to remind. You cannot compel them to believe. (Surat al-Ghashiyah: 22)

...If someone kills another person - unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth - it is as if he had murdered all mankind. And if anyone gives life to another person, it is as if he had given life to all mankind. Our Messengers came to them with Clear Signs but even after that many of them committed outrages in the earth. (Surat al-Ma'ida: 32)

Those who do not call on any other deity together with God and do not kill anyone God has made inviolate, except with the right to do so, and do not fornicate; anyone who does that will receive an evil punishment. (Surat al-Furqan: 68)

...To be one of those who believe and urge each other to steadfastness and urge each other to compassion. Those are the Companions of the Right. (Surat al-Balad: 17-18)

A good action and a bad action are not the same. Repel the bad with something better and, if there is enmity between you and someone else, he will be like a bosom friend. (Surat al-Fussilat: 34)

http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/the_true_islamic_morals.html

Many of the quotes you've chosen are good examples of the contradictions in Islamic texts. Everything has an excuse or an exception.

This quote, for instance:

"You who believe! Enter absolutely into peace (Islam)."

Many people mistake this passage to mean that Islam means "peace". The saying "Islam is the Religion Of Peace" is sometimes said in response by people who really don't know that the word Islam means. Many Muslims will refute anything in an English translation of the Koran because there is no official or sanctioned translation of it in any language but Arabic. All Muslims believe that the Koran is the last, literal, true, word of God. All Muslims believe, and take great pride in the fact, that the Koran is the only holy text that has never been touched by the hand of man. It is today as it was when the angel Gabriel first revealed it to Muhammad. But only in it's original Arabic. Why is this important? Because the meaning of words is very important in Islam. The closest English translation of the word Islam is not peace. It's submit. Or submission.


"Do not follow in the footsteps of Satan. He is an outright enemy to you.
But as for those who break God's contract after it has been agreed and sever what God has commanded to be joined, and cause corruption in the earth, the curse will be upon them. They will have the Evil Abode. (Surat ar-Ra'd: 25)"

This passage describes anyone who is not a Muslim. This is why Muslims refer to the United States as "the great Satan". Muslims believe that everyone is born Muslim. God is perfect, after all, and so God would never put people on this Earth who didn't follow His most perfect ways. It's also why there is no test or rule or criteria of any kind to become a Muslim. All you have to do to call yourself a Muslim is to say "there is only one God and Muhammad was His Messagenger". That's it. Say that, you're a Muslim. So everyone else, by their very nature, have broken God's contract and are cursed.


"...If someone kills another person - unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth - it is as if he had murdered all mankind. And if anyone gives life to another person, it is as if he had given life to all mankind. Our Messengers came to them with Clear Signs but even after that many of them committed outrages in the earth. (Surat al-Ma'ida: 32)"

There's that nasty word "unless". There are so many "unless", "except", and "but"'s in the Koran and Hadiths that it's downright comical. That is if Muslims weren't killing so many people because of those "unless", "except", and "but"'s.

I'm glad you picked that passage because it's a good one. It's the one many Islam apologists use to say that murder and suicide are not allowed under Islam. But there is that nasty exception for retaliation, and all those people causing corruption in the Earth. And of course, there is the glory of paradise that any suicide killer can achieve by killing himself and as many Unbelievers he can take with him.

The thing about any passage in the Koran is this: keep reading.

 

[trobinett]

Yea, good advice, KEEP READING.............

 

[nt250]

Yea, good advice, KEEP READING.............

No thanks, I read enough.

More than two years worth.

Oh, and I also read the news everyday, too. It's just a mouse click away, but seems way beyond the Islam apologists. Doesn't it?

 

[mattskramer]

Many of the quotes you've chosen are good examples of the contradictions in Islamic texts. Everything has an excuse or an exception.

This quote, for instance:

"You who believe! Enter absolutely into peace (Islam)."

Many people mistake this passage to mean that Islam means "peace". The saying "Islam is the Religion Of Peace" is sometimes said in response by people who really don't know that the word Islam means. Many Muslims will refute anything in an English translation of the Koran because there is no official or sanctioned translation of it in any language but Arabic. All Muslims believe that the Koran is the last, literal, true, word of God. All Muslims believe, and take great pride in the fact, that the Koran is the only holy text that has never been touched by the hand of man. It is today as it was when the angel Gabriel first revealed it to Muhammad. But only in it's original Arabic. Why is this important? Because the meaning of words is very important in Islam. The closest English translation of the word Islam is not peace. It's submit. Or submission.


"Do not follow in the footsteps of Satan. He is an outright enemy to you.
But as for those who break God's contract after it has been agreed and sever what God has commanded to be joined, and cause corruption in the earth, the curse will be upon them. They will have the Evil Abode. (Surat ar-Ra'd: 25)"

This passage describes anyone who is not a Muslim. This is why Muslims refer to the United States as "the great Satan". Muslims believe that everyone is born Muslim. God is perfect, after all, and so God would never put people on this Earth who didn't follow His most perfect ways. It's also why there is no test or rule or criteria of any kind to become a Muslim. All you have to do to call yourself a Muslim is to say "there is only one God and Muhammad was His Messagenger". That's it. Say that, you're a Muslim. So everyone else, by their very nature, have broken God's contract and are cursed.


"...If someone kills another person - unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth - it is as if he had murdered all mankind. And if anyone gives life to another person, it is as if he had given life to all mankind. Our Messengers came to them with Clear Signs but even after that many of them committed outrages in the earth. (Surat al-Ma'ida: 32)"

There's that nasty word "unless". There are so many "unless", "except", and "but"'s in the Koran and Hadiths that it's downright comical. That is if Muslims weren't killing so many people because of those "unless", "except", and "but"'s.

I'm glad you picked that passage because it's a good one. It's the one many Islam apologists use to say that murder and suicide are not allowed under Islam. But there is that nasty exception for retaliation, and all those people causing corruption in the Earth. And of course, there is the glory of paradise that any suicide killer can achieve by killing himself and as many Unbelievers he can take with him.

The thing about any passage in the Koran is this: keep reading.

(Yawn) It seems like you are an anti-Islam apologist. Yadda yadda yadda. Skinheads take the “Mark of Cain” mentioned in the Bible to reflect Black people and use it as an excuse to discriminate. It is said that those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. Therefore those who destroy abortion clinics and kill abortion providers think that they are doing God’s will by saving innocent babies.

Heck As I said, you can take just about anything out of any book to suit your cause.

 

[nt250]

(Yawn) It seems like you are an anti-Islam apologist. Yadda yadda yadda. Skinheads take the “Mark of Cain” mentioned in the Bible to reflect Black people and use it as an excuse to discriminate. It is said that those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. Therefore those who destroy abortion clinics and kill abortion providers think that they are doing God’s will by saving innocent babies.

Heck As I said, you can take just about anything out of any book to suit your cause.

There is one difference. A billion people don't agree with what the skinheads and right to lifers do.

All Muslims agree with what the terrorists do.

Yes, they do. Find one instance of any Muslim who denounces terrorism againts Israel.

Good luck.

 

[Reneer]

There is one difference. A billion people don't agree with what the skinheads and right to lifers do.

All Muslims agree with what the terrorists do.

Yes, they do. Find one instance of any Muslim who denounces terrorism againts Israel.

Good luck.

It seems that these Muslims here and here do not subscribe to advocating terrorism.

 

[mattskramer]

There is one difference. A billion people don't agree with what the skinheads and right to lifers do.

All Muslims agree with what the terrorists do.

Yes, they do. Find one instance of any Muslim who denounces terrorism againts Israel.

Good luck.

Please clarify your challenge. You first say that all Muslims agree with what the terrorists do. Does that include the 9-11 terrorist attack that killed roughly 3000 people in the USA? If so, it would be easy for me to find several Muslims who denounce such action. Then you ask me to find one instance of any Muslim who denounces terrorism against Israel – not America. Again, please be very specific in your challenge.

 

[mattskramer]

There is one difference. A billion people don't agree with what the skinheads and right to lifers do.

All Muslims agree with what the terrorists do.

Yes, they do. Find one instance of any Muslim who denounces terrorism againts Israel.

Good luck.

Wow. Uh… Thanks, Reneer. Yeah, nt250, There you go. Check out http://www.arabsforisrael.com/.

 

[nt250]

Please clarify your challenge. You first say that all Muslims agree with what the terrorists do. Does that include the 9-11 terrorist attack that killed roughly 3000 people in the USA? If so, it would be easy for me to find several Muslims who denounce such action. Then you ask me to find one instance of any Muslim who denounces terrorism against Israel – not America. Again, please be very specific in your challenge.

Find one instance of any Muslim who condemns terrorism against Israel.

 

[nt250]

It seems that these Muslims here and here do not subscribe to advocating terrorism.

The second link didn't work.

Can you clarify the first? It's a link to an entire website. Can you narrow down it's purpose and who is behind it? A quote ot two? Whatever?

I wouldn't normally be so lazy, but I've seen may sites like that one and I no longer have the patience to do the reading for people who find those kinds of sites valid.

 

[mattskramer]

The second link didn't work.

Can you clarify the first? It's a link to an entire website. Can you narrow down it's purpose and who is behind it? A quote ot two? Whatever?

I wouldn't normally be so lazy, but I've seen may sites like that one and I no longer have the patience to do the reading for people who find those kinds of sites valid.

I am a typical Arab- Egyptian- with a Muslim background. As any Arab, I was brought up on hating Israel and the Jews.

To conclude, as an observer form within the Arab and Muslim world and as a man who just want to say the truth and nothing but the truth, I say it loudly that Israel is the ONLY light of the Middle East. Israel is the light of love, democracy, civilization, tolerance, and justice and I pray from the depth of my heart that the light of Israel radiates to cover the darkness around it.It is a dream…..but who knows it may happen. Do you understand now why I love Israel!

T. Abdelhamid

7/June/2004

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/articles/whyiloveisrael.html

 

[Reneer]

The second link didn't work.

Can you clarify the first? It's a link to an entire website. Can you narrow down it's purpose and who is behind it? A quote ot two? Whatever?

I wouldn't normally be so lazy, but I've seen may sites like that one and I no longer have the patience to do the reading for people who find those kinds of sites valid.

Sorry, I botched the 2nd link up. It's fixed.

The first one simply seems to be a group of Arabs / Muslims who are against terrorists attacking Israel. The site is poorly designed, but there is a 'Who We Are' section that lists Israel as a legitimate state and that it is an assert to the Middle East and they believe that jihad is a distortion of Islam.

The second link is an article about a Muslim professor who says that the Koran actually states that the Holy Land is for Jews to inhabit.

 

[nt250]

Wow. Uh… Thanks, Reneer. Yeah, nt250, There you go. Check out http://www.arabsforisrael.com/.

I have a serious problem with this site already and I've only been reading it for about 3 minutes.

Here is why:

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/home.html

About 3 clicks down this page there is a section called "Who Are We" and it says:

"Who Are We?

We are Arabs and Moslems who believe…"

Sorry, but one of the first things I learned when I started reading about Islam is that the spelling of Muslim as "Moslem" is considered an insult.

 

[Reneer]

I had a professor (who was Muslim) who pronounced 'Muslim' as 'Moslem' in a class last year. I didn't know about the connotations of Moslem versus Muslim, though...

 

[mattskramer]

I have a serious problem with this site already and I've only been reading it for about 3 minutes.

Here is why:

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/home.html

About 3 clicks down this page there is a section called "Who Are We" and it says:

"Who Are We?

We are Arabs and Moslems who believe…"

Sorry, but one of the first things I learned when I started reading about Islam is that the spelling of Muslim as "Moslem" is considered an insult.

To Muslims and Arabs across the globe:
Reject hate, embrace love. Bring out the best in Islam by showing your compassion, gratitude and forgiveness. Make the holy land truly holy by giving Israel and the Jewish people the respect they deserve in their tiny little country. This is not a crisis over land. It is a crisis of the soul; a crisis in our faith, judgement and self confidence. Israel should not be regarded as an enemy, but as a blessing to our neighborhood. We need not fear peace, but embrace it.

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/home.html

Now, Please. Admit the obvious - Your challenge was soundly met – and give it a rest.

 

[mattskramer]

Check out the emails too:

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/arabemails/2005archive.html

 

[nt250]

*Looks one post above* Woah. Wall o' text.



Sorry, I botched the 2nd link up. It's fixed.

The first one simply seems to be a group of Arabs / Muslims who are against terrorists attacking Israel. The site is poorly designed, but there is a 'Who We Are' section that lists Israel as a legitimate state and that it is an assert to the Middle East and they believe that jihad is a distortion of Islam.

The second link is an article about a Muslim professor who says that the Koran actually states that the Holy Land is for Jews to inhabit.

I hate to ask such a stupid question, but...

Did you read the second article?

Notice how the quote from this Nonie Darwish's website is corrected as [Muslim]. They wouldn't even quote him as spelling it "Moslem".

I'll keep reading, but this looks like one of the worst cases of deceit I've seen yet. I've seen Christian sites pretend to be pro-Muslim and I've seen scores of obviously anti-Muslim sites, but this one? I can't figure out what this one is yet.

 

[nt250]

To Muslims and Arabs across the globe:
Reject hate, embrace love. Bring out the best in Islam by showing your compassion, gratitude and forgiveness. Make the holy land truly holy by giving Israel and the Jewish people the respect they deserve in their tiny little country. This is not a crisis over land. It is a crisis of the soul; a crisis in our faith, judgement and self confidence. Israel should not be regarded as an enemy, but as a blessing to our neighborhood. We need not fear peace, but embrace it.

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/home.html

Now, Please. Admit the obvious - Your challenge was soundly met – and give it a rest.

Give me a chance to read it.

Forgive me for being skeptical of a site that does the one thing I learned, in my first hour of reading about Islam, was a sure sign of contempt for Muslims.

It's a big site. I'll get back to you tomorrow, ok?

 

[nt250]

I had a professor (who was Muslim) who pronounced 'Muslim' as 'Moslem' in a class last year. I didn't know about the connotations of Moslem versus Muslim, though...

To be honest, I can't for the life of me remember why it's considered an insult. I started reading about Islam close to 3 years ago and that was one of the first things I read. The Christian sites are obvious. But some others are not so obvious, but one good indication is if they spell it Moslem, it's an anti-Muslim site.

There is a reason, but I can't remember what it is. I pretty much gave up reading this stuff about 18 months ago. It was pointless. Nobody cares what Islam is.