Thinking Back To Abraham Lincoln

[Curried Goats]

Very, very few Americans believed that blacks were their equal or Native Americans were their equal or women were their equal

No shit. The conclusion being that the vast vast majority of white America and white American culture is deeply racist. You're not arguing against that conclusion so much as you seem to be trying to get me to excuse it.

 

[rightwinger]

No shit. The conclusion being that the vast vast majority of white America and white American culture is deeply racist. You're not arguing against that conclusion so much as you seem to be trying to get me to excuse it.

The US evolved and is still evolving on racism
To compare todays views of equality to that of 150 years ago or even 50 years ago is not realistic
I compare Lincoln to the standards of his day and he was very liberal for his time

 

[Curried Goats]

The US evolved and is still evolving on racism
To compare todays views of equality to that of 150 years ago or even 50 years ago is not realistic
I compare Lincoln to the standards of his day and he was very liberal for his time

Days don't have standards, people do. These are your standards you're just being a ***** about it.

 

[rightwinger]

Days don't have standards, people do. These are your standards you're just being a ***** about it.

And people evolve
Ancient cultures were not that tolerant.
The US, though we celebrated our views that all men are created equal…did not practice it

 

[my2¢]

From what I've read Lincoln only wished to stop the expansion of slavery and the Emancipation Proclamation came about only as a preventative measure against France and Britain recognizing the sovereignty of the Confederacy.

 

[mikegriffith1]

From what I've read Lincoln only wished to stop the expansion of slavery and the Emancipation Proclamation came about only as a preventative measure against France and Britain recognizing the sovereignty of the Confederacy.

That's the neo-Confederate and black radical argument, and it's nonsense. Lincoln wanted to issue the Emancipation Proclamation earlier, but Seward talked him into waiting until the Union won another victory so it didn't seem like he was acting in desperation.

Lincoln explained that he was determined to issue the proclamation because he believed God wanted him to do so and because he had promised God he would do so.

 

[Curried Goats]

And people evolve
Ancient cultures were not that tolerant.

How do you know? You know the customs and beliefs of all ancient civilizations?

And when you say moral beliefs evolve that's a metaphor right. You don't mean biologically do you? So what do you actually mean by that, without the metaphor? Do we only progress? Do societies never devolve into chaos and violence? Do laws never get more restrictive and oppressive? Thinking good laws come about naturally as a matter of progress with the times dismisses the work people have to do to combat tyranny and villainy, always.

The US, though we celebrated our views that all men are created equal…did not practice it

No shit. I don't put any stock into aspirational words. I judge people by their actions.

 

[gipper]

Lincoln’s power was vested in politics
An 1850s politician was not going anywhere by advocating the equality of blacks, full rights as citizens and marrying white women.
But Lincoln did publicly acknowledge the basic unfairness of Slavery. He stated that a man should keep the fruits of his labor.
For his era, Lincoln was one of the most liberal/moderate towards slavery.
It is why the South quickly seceded

More of a condemnation of the South
Lincoln was acknowledging the obvious

The South proved him right for the next 100 years

He wasn’t moderate at all. He was a passionate racist even in his time. He did see slavery as unfair, but had no intention of ever ending it. He sold his wife’s slaves to earn a nice profit.

As you must know, the Emancipation Proclamation was a deceptive political move. Ultimately he did end slavery and deserves credit for that, but at what cost?

 

[rightwinger]

He wasn’t moderate at all. He was a passionate racist even in his time. He did see slavery as unfair, but had no intention of ever ending it. He sold his wife’s slaves to earn a nice profit.

As you must know, the Emancipation Proclamation was a deceptive political move. Ultimately he did end slavery and deserves credit for that, but at what cost?

Lincoln lacked the political power to end slavery even if he wanted to
The best he could have done as President was to stop the expansion into new states.

The war gave him the political power to end slavery and he made the most of it

 

[my2¢]

That's the neo-Confederate and black radical argument, and it's nonsense.

Lincoln explained that he was determined to issue the proclamation because he believed God wanted him to do so and because he had promised God he would do so.

Lincoln in his 1st inaugural address:
“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.”

Here are his words a year and half later and less than 6 months before the emancipation proclamation...

My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save thise Union

 

[gipper]

Lincoln lacked the political power to end slavery even if he wanted to
The best he could have done as President was to stop the expansion into new states.

The war gave him the political power to end slavery and he made the most of it

Absurd. He had the power to murder 850,000 Americans and destroy half the nation, but poor old Abe didn’t have the power to end slavery. Too funny and too stupid.

He had the power to pass the Emancipation Proclamation magically and yet it only ended slavery in the seceding states, where he had no authority. Yet another deceptive move by dishonest Abe.

 

[rightwinger]

Lincoln in his 1st inaugural address:
“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.”

Here are his words a year and half later and less than 6 months before the emancipation proclamation...

My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save thise Union

By the time Lincoln took office, most of the South had already seceded because of rumors about what Lincoln would do about slavery.
Lincoln was trying to put those rumors to rest by claiming he had no intention to end slavery. His primary concern was to preserve the union

He wanted to restore the union and allow the slavery issue to be handled later

 

[gipper]

Lincoln in his 1st inaugural address:
“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.”

Here are his words a year and half later and less than 6 months before the emancipation proclamation...

My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save thise Union

Save the union by force. The thinking of a tyrant.

 

[rightwinger]

Absurd. He had the power to murder 850,000 Americans and destroy half the nation, but poor old Abe didn’t have the power to end slavery. Too funny and too stupid.

He had the power to pass the Emancipation Proclamation magically and yet it only ended slavery in the seceding states, where he had no authority. Yet another deceptive move by dishonest Abe.

Pretty much so.
Lincoln had the power to wage war
He didn’t have the power to end slavery
That took a Constitutional Amendment

 

[rightwinger]

Save the union by force. The thinking of a tyrant.

The tyrants owned slaves

 

[gipper]

Pretty much so.
Lincoln had the power to wage war
He didn’t have the power to end slavery
That took a Constitutional Amendment

What was the Emancipation Proclamation?

 

[Curried Goats]

Absurd. He had the power to murder 850,000 Americans and destroy half the nation, but poor old Abe didn’t have the power to end slavery. Too funny and too stupid.

He had the power to pass the Emancipation Proclamation magically and yet it only ended slavery in the seceding states, where he had no authority. Yet another deceptive move by dishonest Abe.

Are you confused? You just said he had the power to murder 850,000 Americans and destroy half the nation but that he didn't have the power to end slavery. I'd argue murdering a bunch of slavers, setting their slaves free and then burning their homes and villages pretty effectively puts and end to their capacity to engage in slavery. It is in fact an exertion of his power to end slavery through violence and destruction.

 

[gipper]

The tyrants owned slaves

As did Lincoln and sold them for a very handsome profit.

 

[gipper]

Are you confused? You just said he had the power to murder 850,000 Americans and destroy half the nation but that he didn't have the power to end slavery. I'd argue murdering a bunch of slavers, setting their slaves free and then burning their homes and villages pretty effectively puts and end to their capacity to engage in slavery. It is in fact an exertion of his power to end slavery through violence and destruction.

Why would you support death and destruction of Americans, most of whom never owned a slave? Treason!

You must know the entire western hemisphere ended slavery without violence, except for you know who. Why do you suppose that is?

 

[Curried Goats]

Why would you support death and destruction of Americans, most of whom never owned a slave? Treason!

Because all Americans lived in a deplorable Slave State and other than their innocent victims I couldn't give less of a shit about what happened to them or their families.

You must know the entire western hemisphere ended slavery without violence, except for you know who. Why do you suppose that is?

Because American culture is especially deplorable and depraved?