PoliticalChic
Diamond Member
Did we....really?
Or are we the victims of hugely successful manipulation by the Soviets, tied to politicians, weak of mind and/or character?
Were we fighting the Nazis, with the aid of our Soviet ally?
Or were these two 'bad cop- good cop' playing the rubes of America?
Rather than prove your case by referring to 'historians' or 'textbooks,' let's look at the final result.
1. Background on the two "mortal enemies," Communists and Nazis.
A year after Lenin's death, 1924, the NYTimes published a small article about a newly established party in Germany, the National Socialist Labor Party, which "...persists in believing that Lenin and Hitler can be compared or contrasted...Dr. Goebell's....assertion that Lenin was the greatest man second only to Hitler....and that the difference between communism and the Hitler faith was very slight...."
NYTimes, November 27, 1925.
a. "Hitler often stated that he learned much from reading Marx, and the whole of National Socialism is doctrinally based on Marxism."
George Watson, Historian, Cambridge.
b. "Socialists in Germany were national socialists, communists were international socialists."
Vladimir Bukovsky.
2. When Hitler began his advances on other countries, Stalin refused to join the nations talking of stopping him. Stalin was, in fact, pleased that Hitler was destroying the old order throughout Europe. "There will be no parliaments, no trade unions, no armies, no governments....then Stalin will come as the liberator...millions of people will be sitting in concentration camps, hoping someone will liberate them, then Stalin and the Red Army will come and liberate them. That was his plan."
Vladimir Bukovsky.
3. But Hitler didn't have the supplies nor resources he needed, so August 23, 1939, Soviet Russia' Foreign Minister Molotov signs the Nazi-Soviet Non-aggression Pact while German Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop and Soviet leader Josef Stalin look on, while standing under a portrait of Lenin materials to be provided in later economic agreements.
4. September 1, 1939, Hitler attacked Poland....on September 17, Stalin attacks from the East. The Soviet radio transmitter in Minsk guided the Nazi bombers attacking Polish cities. Newsreel footage showed the Red Army in Nazi helmets, marching side by side with the SS. One photo shows the hammer and sickle along side the swastika.
a. The Soviet press depicted the battle as a fight against Polish fascism, with the peace-loving Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union fighting aggressive Polish fascism.
5. Hitler and Stalin signed secret protocols to divide up Europe. First, Stalin moved against Finland, November 1939....for the aggression, the USSR was expelled from the League of Nations. Hitler attacked to the West.
a. Norway was invaded with the direct help of the Soviet Union, providing the Soviet naval base near Murmansk. "German Admiral Raeder sent a letter of thanks to the Commander of the Soviet Navy, Kuznetsov."
6. Viktor Suvorov " is a Soviet Army Cold War-era Soviet military intelligence officer who defected to the United Kingdom, eventually becoming a famous writer and historian." Viktor Suvorov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In his 2008 "The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War II," Suvorov explains that Stalin materially assisted Nazi Germany in its aggression so that the Soviet Union could intervene at the proper time and seize all of continental Europe for itself. Hopefully, Germany and the West would exhaust themselves fighting each other.
So....their doctrines were essentially the same, they attacked the same targets, they used the same methods of governance....and agreed to split Europe between themselves.
Stalin 'used' Hitler....but expected to, ultimately,overpower him.
The aim of communism was, and is, world domination.
7. Move forward:
The war ended with the Soviet military occupation of half of Europe. There is no possible argument that could conclude that Joseph Stalin was any better than Adolph Hitler. None. Yet, "Nazi" produces a visceral response. "Communist," none such.
Yet many answer the title of the OP with "democracy won."
8. Lies, cover-up, censorship by American leaders cloud the true nature of the victory of WWII.
"This [the results of WWII] was, after all, the Kremlin dream, the Communist grail. Now it was real, its headquarters rising in concrete and steel over Turtle Bay in New York City, brought into existence by a bevy of Soviet agents lodged deep in the vitals of the United States and other Western governments.....Think about what [Harry] Hopkins, [Alger] Hiss and [Harry Dexter] White actually accomplished."
West, "American Betrayal," p.255.
9. "Thus the world found itself in 1945 at the conclusion of catastrophe with a whole series of international institutions- ranging from commercial agreements , to exchange rates, to war credits and loans, to the administration of territories without governments, to the ambulating world without citizenship, to the United Nations itself- which had been imposed by the United States. But even more important was the fact that all the "charters" and constitutions of these world institutions had been composed by America's leading Soviet agents."
Gregor Dallas, "1945: The War That Never Ended," p. 413-414
10. In a letter to FDR, dated January 29, 1943, Ambassador (to Moscow) William Bullitt warned Roosevelt about what would happen if he continued pursuing the policies of appeasement toward Stalin that formed the foundation of the American war strategy. He pleaded with FDR not to 'permit our war to prevent Nazi domination of Europe to be turned into a war to establish Soviet domination of Europe.' He predicted the Soviet annexation of half of Europe; George Kennan identified that letter as the earliest warning of what would be the result of FDR's policies.
"For the President Personal & Secret: Correspondence Between Franklin D. Roosevelt and William C. Bullitt," Orville H. Bullitt, p. 575-590
FDR replied: "Bill, I don't dispute your facts, they are accurate, I don't dispute the logic of your reasoning. I have just had a hunch that Stalin is not that kind of a man. Harry [Hopkins] says he's not and that he doesn't want anything in the world but security for his country, and I think that if I give him everything I possibly can and ask nothing from him in return, noblesse oblige, he won't try to annex anything and will work with me for a world of democracy and peace."
William C. Bullitt, "How We Won The War and Lost The Peace," Life Magazine, August 30, 1948, p. 94
So....who won WWII?
Or are we the victims of hugely successful manipulation by the Soviets, tied to politicians, weak of mind and/or character?
Were we fighting the Nazis, with the aid of our Soviet ally?
Or were these two 'bad cop- good cop' playing the rubes of America?
Rather than prove your case by referring to 'historians' or 'textbooks,' let's look at the final result.
1. Background on the two "mortal enemies," Communists and Nazis.
A year after Lenin's death, 1924, the NYTimes published a small article about a newly established party in Germany, the National Socialist Labor Party, which "...persists in believing that Lenin and Hitler can be compared or contrasted...Dr. Goebell's....assertion that Lenin was the greatest man second only to Hitler....and that the difference between communism and the Hitler faith was very slight...."
NYTimes, November 27, 1925.
a. "Hitler often stated that he learned much from reading Marx, and the whole of National Socialism is doctrinally based on Marxism."
George Watson, Historian, Cambridge.
b. "Socialists in Germany were national socialists, communists were international socialists."
Vladimir Bukovsky.
2. When Hitler began his advances on other countries, Stalin refused to join the nations talking of stopping him. Stalin was, in fact, pleased that Hitler was destroying the old order throughout Europe. "There will be no parliaments, no trade unions, no armies, no governments....then Stalin will come as the liberator...millions of people will be sitting in concentration camps, hoping someone will liberate them, then Stalin and the Red Army will come and liberate them. That was his plan."
Vladimir Bukovsky.
3. But Hitler didn't have the supplies nor resources he needed, so August 23, 1939, Soviet Russia' Foreign Minister Molotov signs the Nazi-Soviet Non-aggression Pact while German Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop and Soviet leader Josef Stalin look on, while standing under a portrait of Lenin materials to be provided in later economic agreements.
4. September 1, 1939, Hitler attacked Poland....on September 17, Stalin attacks from the East. The Soviet radio transmitter in Minsk guided the Nazi bombers attacking Polish cities. Newsreel footage showed the Red Army in Nazi helmets, marching side by side with the SS. One photo shows the hammer and sickle along side the swastika.
a. The Soviet press depicted the battle as a fight against Polish fascism, with the peace-loving Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union fighting aggressive Polish fascism.
5. Hitler and Stalin signed secret protocols to divide up Europe. First, Stalin moved against Finland, November 1939....for the aggression, the USSR was expelled from the League of Nations. Hitler attacked to the West.
a. Norway was invaded with the direct help of the Soviet Union, providing the Soviet naval base near Murmansk. "German Admiral Raeder sent a letter of thanks to the Commander of the Soviet Navy, Kuznetsov."
6. Viktor Suvorov " is a Soviet Army Cold War-era Soviet military intelligence officer who defected to the United Kingdom, eventually becoming a famous writer and historian." Viktor Suvorov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In his 2008 "The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War II," Suvorov explains that Stalin materially assisted Nazi Germany in its aggression so that the Soviet Union could intervene at the proper time and seize all of continental Europe for itself. Hopefully, Germany and the West would exhaust themselves fighting each other.
So....their doctrines were essentially the same, they attacked the same targets, they used the same methods of governance....and agreed to split Europe between themselves.
Stalin 'used' Hitler....but expected to, ultimately,overpower him.
The aim of communism was, and is, world domination.
7. Move forward:
The war ended with the Soviet military occupation of half of Europe. There is no possible argument that could conclude that Joseph Stalin was any better than Adolph Hitler. None. Yet, "Nazi" produces a visceral response. "Communist," none such.
Yet many answer the title of the OP with "democracy won."
8. Lies, cover-up, censorship by American leaders cloud the true nature of the victory of WWII.
"This [the results of WWII] was, after all, the Kremlin dream, the Communist grail. Now it was real, its headquarters rising in concrete and steel over Turtle Bay in New York City, brought into existence by a bevy of Soviet agents lodged deep in the vitals of the United States and other Western governments.....Think about what [Harry] Hopkins, [Alger] Hiss and [Harry Dexter] White actually accomplished."
West, "American Betrayal," p.255.
9. "Thus the world found itself in 1945 at the conclusion of catastrophe with a whole series of international institutions- ranging from commercial agreements , to exchange rates, to war credits and loans, to the administration of territories without governments, to the ambulating world without citizenship, to the United Nations itself- which had been imposed by the United States. But even more important was the fact that all the "charters" and constitutions of these world institutions had been composed by America's leading Soviet agents."
Gregor Dallas, "1945: The War That Never Ended," p. 413-414
10. In a letter to FDR, dated January 29, 1943, Ambassador (to Moscow) William Bullitt warned Roosevelt about what would happen if he continued pursuing the policies of appeasement toward Stalin that formed the foundation of the American war strategy. He pleaded with FDR not to 'permit our war to prevent Nazi domination of Europe to be turned into a war to establish Soviet domination of Europe.' He predicted the Soviet annexation of half of Europe; George Kennan identified that letter as the earliest warning of what would be the result of FDR's policies.
"For the President Personal & Secret: Correspondence Between Franklin D. Roosevelt and William C. Bullitt," Orville H. Bullitt, p. 575-590
FDR replied: "Bill, I don't dispute your facts, they are accurate, I don't dispute the logic of your reasoning. I have just had a hunch that Stalin is not that kind of a man. Harry [Hopkins] says he's not and that he doesn't want anything in the world but security for his country, and I think that if I give him everything I possibly can and ask nothing from him in return, noblesse oblige, he won't try to annex anything and will work with me for a world of democracy and peace."
William C. Bullitt, "How We Won The War and Lost The Peace," Life Magazine, August 30, 1948, p. 94
So....who won WWII?
