They've Been Saying This For Months About Ukraine

[GLASNOST]

And my retirement check from the State of Washington would buy
you 100+ fine Trailers.

Big & Rich.
.....

You should spend some of it on education for you, your family and your countrymen. I mean, seriously you have seen more than one presidential press BS, haven't you? And can you honestly say it doesn't embarrass you?

 

[GLASNOST]

I know that what the US did in 2014 has no bearing on Zelensky's election in 2019. The Ukraine desk at the State Dept. still had the same people as under Obama, and they backed Poroshenko. But Zelensky won anyway. Those same people were perfectly willing to throw Zelensky under the bus when they tried to impeach Trump for the phone call, and portrayed Zelensky as some kind of helpless chump who was being blackmailed by Trump.

I also know the aid we have provided to Ukraine is wildly exaggerated by people on this board, and that nothing of any substance was even offered until after the Ukrainians had defeated the Russian invasion at Kiev.

You seem like a good person but here's the problem. The US has destroyed several Democratic nations and replaced the former leader with a puppet whose sole purpose is to do what the CIA tells him to do ... in the service of what is usually called "American interests". These interests (without any exceptional example that I can see) are dictated by corruption based in Washington. Iran, Vietnam, Cuba, Grenada ... the list goes on and on and on. Here we are today looking at Ukraine and all of the typcial CIA dirty algorithms are in place.

 

[para bellum]

You seem like a good person but here's the problem. The US has destroyed several Democratic nations and replaced the former leader with a puppet whose sole purpose is to do what the CIA tells him to do ... in the service of what is usually called "American interests". These interests (without any exceptional example that I can see) are dictated by corruption based in Washington. Iran, Vietnam, Cuba, Grenada ... the list goes on and on and on. Here we are today looking at Ukraine and all of the typcial CIA dirty algorithms are in place.

Thank you, but to me this is conflation and whataboutism. Ukraine is just Ukraine, and has to be viewed in it's own context. I'm not going to advocate that we sit back and watch (while innocent Ukrainian civilians are killed on an industrial scale) because the US gets it wrong sometimes in other places.

And even if I agreed that the US was solely responsible for Poroshenko, it does not change the fact that Zelensky beat our "puppet" in 2019. The truth is, Ukraine had been moving towards more integration with the west since well before 2014.

Yes, we certainly have our problems. The people I care about vis-a-vis this war are the Ukrainian steelworkers who used to go to work everyday in the mills in Mariupol or Donetsk. The farmers who have fields now contaminated with thousands of tons of unexploded munitions and explosive residues, the millions of people who have had their lives and homes destroyed, all because Putin thought it was a good time to come back and take another bite from the apple.

I hate that Biden has the baggage of his own family corruption hanging over all this- it has caused us to be weak in our response, and withhold weapons that the Ukrainians need to put an end this outrageous war. Biden's timidity drags the war out, and increases the risk of Putin doing something really stupid.

 

[Litwin]

I replayed this video three times and I still don't have a clue what they're talking about though. Can anybody here translate please?

IVAN, YOU PROMOTE Your own video here. its crap much like your moscow - muslims lovers they are crap too

 

[Litwin]

Thank you, but to me this is conflation and whataboutism. Ukraine is just Ukraine, and has to be viewed in it's own context. I'm not going to advocate that we sit back and watch (while innocent Ukrainian civilians are killed on an industrial scale) because the US gets it wrong sometimes in other places.

And even if I agreed that the US was solely responsible for Poroshenko, it does not change the fact that Zelensky beat our "puppet" in 2019. The truth is, Ukraine had been moving towards more integration with the west since well before 2014.

Yes, we certainly have our problems. The people I care about vis-a-vis this war are the Ukrainian steelworkers who used to go to work everyday in the mills in Mariupol or Donetsk. The farmers who have fields now contaminated with thousands of tons of unexploded munitions and explosive residues, the millions of people who have had their lives and homes destroyed, all because Putin thought it was a good time to come back and take another bite from the apple.

I hate that Biden has the baggage of his own family corruption hanging over all this- it has caused us to be weak in our response, and withhold weapons that the Ukrainians need to put an end this outrageous war. Biden's timidity drags the war out, and increases the risk of Putin doing something really stupid.

you just intellectually raped this gang of the thugs, turned this nutasha gang into a joke


ps

 

[para bellum]

you just intellectually raped this gang of the thugs, turned this nutasha gang into a joke

No, people have a right to question our motives. The history of our involvement in Ukraine's domestic politics, and the payoffs to Biden and other democrats cannot be untangled from the situation today.

The US taxpayer has the right to demand transparency when it comes to our dollars going to Ukraine for any purpose. I will never argue otherwise.

I think you have FJB wrong- he does not advocate for Putin. He is focused on US domestic issues, and was questioning the White House's word-salad sloganizing approach to policy explanations. Stumbling out a response like "nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine", in response to a pool reporter asking about the Musk meeting with Putin, is a feeble reply for a WH spokesperson. I knew what it meant because I've heard it before, and it took Biden a while to get to that position, but it's the right policy for this situation (imo).

 

[GLASNOST]

Thank you, but to me this is conflation and whataboutism. Ukraine is just Ukraine, and has to be viewed in it's own context. I'm not going to advocate that we sit back and watch (while innocent Ukrainian civilians are killed on an industrial scale) because the US gets it wrong sometimes in other places.

And even if I agreed that the US was solely responsible for Poroshenko, it does not change the fact that Zelensky beat our "puppet" in 2019. The truth is, Ukraine had been moving towards more integration with the west since well before 2014.

Yes, we certainly have our problems. The people I care about vis-a-vis this war are the Ukrainian steelworkers who used to go to work everyday in the mills in Mariupol or Donetsk. The farmers who have fields now contaminated with thousands of tons of unexploded munitions and explosive residues, the millions of people who have had their lives and homes destroyed, all because Putin thought it was a good time to come back and take another bite from the apple.

I hate that Biden has the baggage of his own family corruption hanging over all this- it has caused us to be weak in our response, and withhold weapons that the Ukrainians need to put an end this outrageous war. Biden's timidity drags the war out, and increases the risk of Putin doing something really stupid.

We can probaly have an earnest discussion without getting into a fist fight or shooting one another. You dislike the "exagerated" view on one side and I don't like it on the other side. So what really is important in order to come to some sort of agreement or at least an understaning?

Let's declare what we think the goal of Putin is and what we think the goal of Zelensky is. You can go first - or shall I? Once we do that we can then see if the facts (or apparent facts) support what we believe.

 

[para bellum]

We can probaly have an earnest discussion without getting into a fist fight or shooting one another. You dislike the "exagerated" view on one side and I don't like it on the other side. So what really is important in order to come to some sort of agreement or at least an understaning?

Well I guess the first thing is that we have to be working from the same set of facts. I agree that the US meddled in 2014, but I will point out that was a different guy. Poroshenko is not Zelensky, and if Poroshenko was a US puppet that does not make Zelensky one.

If you say the US/NATO planned this all from the start, etc- then you have to explain the first month when everyone was predicting Ukraine's defeat, no western heavy weapons were flowing into Ukraine, but Ukraine still overcame all odds and prevented Russia from taking Kiev. And I will point out that it was Putin that invaded Ukraine, not the other way around, and that no one was threatening Russia last February.

If you think the US has given $100 Bn to Ukraine, that is just not true, it's closer to $15 Bn actual. The lend-lease only went into effect October 1, and a large part of the aid is really just purchase authority. Ukraine can request from the Pentagon and the DOD contracts with the manufacturer for the systems. Which ($15 Bn) is still a lot, but it's not $100 Bn. And we would agree if you said the aid has to be followed, and we need to make sure it goes where it's intended.

I use these as examples, not saying you made any of those arguments yourself. But to reach understanding, first we would have to agree on what is a fact.

Let's declare what we think the goal of Putin is and what we think the goal of Zelensky is. You can go first - or shall I? Once we do that we can then see if the facts (or apparent facts) support what we believe.

I think Putin's primary goal is to stay in power. I think he has made promises to the Russian people that he can't deliver, and he has boxed himself in between the hard-liners and the public. He has an embarrassed military and an agitated public, and that's not a good combination for someone in Putin's position.

His goal- which he views as his legacy, is to be the strongman who re-established Russia's muscle in the global order, and that includes what he said in his Peter the Great speech. If he could, he would take the balts and northern Poland tomorrow. He wants dominance of the Black Sea, and a contiguous Russia from Kaliningrad to Moldova and beyond.

Zelensky is easy. He is fighting for the survival of Ukraine as a sovereign nation.

These are simply opinions, and mine are no better than yours. I don't really focus on that part- I am mainly just watching what's happening on the ground in Ukraine day-to-day.

 

[MisterBeale]

You should write comedy, that's ******* priceless

When look at when this comedian joined the forum.

I am afraid, his comedy stylings will come to an end, as soon as the war does.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

When look at when this comedian joined the forum.

I am afraid, his comedy stylings will come to an end, as soon as the war does.

No, there's no Deep State. Nope.

 

[GLASNOST]

Well I guess the first thing is that we have to be working from the same set of facts. I agree that the US meddled in 2014, but I will point out that was a different guy. Poroshenko is not Zelensky, and if Poroshenko was a US puppet that does not make Zelensky one.

If you say the US/NATO planned this all from the start, etc- then you have to explain the first month when everyone was predicting Ukraine's defeat, no western heavy weapons were flowing into Ukraine, but Ukraine still overcame all odds and prevented Russia from taking Kiev. And I will point out that it was Putin that invaded Ukraine, not the other way around, and that no one was threatening Russia last February.

If you think the US has given $100 Bn to Ukraine, that is just not true, it's closer to $15 Bn actual. The lend-lease only went into effect October 1, and a large part of the aid is really just purchase authority. Ukraine can request from the Pentagon and the DOD contracts with the manufacturer for the systems. Which ($15 Bn) is still a lot, but it's not $100 Bn. And we would agree if you said the aid has to be followed, and we need to make sure it goes where it's intended.

I use these as examples, not saying you made any of those arguments yourself. But to reach understanding, first we would have to agree on what is a fact.

I think Putin's primary goal is to stay in power. I think he has made promises to the Russian people that he can't deliver, and he has boxed himself in between the hard-liners and the public. He has an embarrassed military and an agitated public, and that's not a good combination for someone in Putin's position.

His goal- which he views as his legacy, is to be the strongman who re-established Russia's muscle in the global order, and that includes what he said in his Peter the Great speech. If he could, he would take the balts and northern Poland tomorrow. He wants dominance of the Black Sea, and a contiguous Russia from Kaliningrad to Moldova and beyond.

Zelensky is easy. He is fighting for the survival of Ukraine as a sovereign nation.

These are simply opinions, and mine are no better than yours. I don't really focus on that part- I am mainly just watching what's happening on the ground in Ukraine day-to-day.

In my opinion, I think maybe you are overthinking the situation and skipping backwards and forwards through the timeline. The focal point is the relationship between 1). Ukraine 2). Zelensky 3). Putin. Who has the right to Ukraine, what does Zelensky want to do with it and what does Putin want to do with it?

1). Is Ukraine a whole, legitimate entity or is Donbas a special faction of it? Is there any historical premise that specifies Ukraine's frontiers?
2). Is Zelensky acting out of responsibility for Ukrainians as an ethnic people or as a bi-cultural nation?
3). Is Putin acting out of concern for the Russian (ethnic) population within Ukraine (Donbas) or as a geographic advantage for Russia as a nation and does he have his sights set on the whole of Ukraine or only Donbas?

 

[MisterBeale]

No, there's no Deep State. Nope.

77th Brigade (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GLASNOST]

No, there's no Deep State. Nope.

Well, you don't need to be a rocket scientist. You don't need to be a university professor. You don't need to be a psychologist. I assume that you are none of those things. Neither am I. But how much intelligence is necessary to understand that people like Sarah Palin, Bush Baby Junior, Hillary Clinton, Hank Johnson, Maxine Waters and Joe Biden cannot possibly be competent enough to manage a 7/11 store yet there they are in political positions in the US. So, who do you think is running the country if not a "behind the scenes" Deep State?

Duh!

 

[para bellum]

In my opinion, I think maybe you are overthinking the situation and skipping backwards and forwards through the timeline. The focal point is the relationship between 1). Ukraine 2). Zelensky 3). Putin. Who has the right to Ukraine, what does Zelensky want to do with it and what does Putin want to do with it?

1). Is Ukraine a whole, legitimate entity or is Donbas a special faction of it? Is there any historical premise that specifies Ukraine's frontiers?
2). Is Zelensky acting out of responsibility for Ukrainians as an ethnic people or as a bi-cultural nation?
3). Is Putin acting out of concern for the Russian (ethnic) population within Ukraine (Donbas) or as a geographic advantage for Russia as a nation and does he have his sights set on the whole of Ukraine or only Donbas?

Well I would say that you are the one "over-thinking" it. The status of Ukraine's Oblasts are an internal political matter for Ukrainians. Putin and Zelensky's motivations, what do they matter? Putin is attacking Ukraine, Zelensky is charged with defending Ukraine by virtue of his position.

There is a historical premise that defines Ukraine's borders- that is the 1991 independence referendum. Ukrainians voted overwhelmingly to become an independent country, and not be a part of Russia. That established Ukraine's internationally recognized borders, and defines what should be regarded as Ukraine.

I could argue there is a historical premise for Rome to rule over all of Europe and North Africa, but that was then and this is now...

 

[MisterBeale]

The status of Ukraine's Oblasts are an internal political matter for Ukrainians.

Lindsey Graham & John McCain in Ukraine - Preparing for a proxy war with Russia (2016)

 

[GLASNOST]

.........

1). Is Ukraine a whole, legitimate entity or is Donbas a special faction of it? Is there any historical premise that specifies Ukraine's frontiers?
2). Is Zelensky acting out of responsibility for Ukrainians as an ethnic people or as a bi-cultural nation?
3). Is Putin acting out of concern for the Russian (ethnic) population within Ukraine (Donbas) or as a geographic advantage for Russia as a nation and does he have his sights set on the whole of Ukraine or only Donbas?

.... The status of Ukraine's Oblasts are an internal political matter for Ukrainians. Putin and Zelensky's motivations, what do they matter? Putin is attacking Ukraine, Zelensky is charged with defending Ukraine by virtue of his position.

There is a historical premise that defines Ukraine's borders- that is the 1991 independence referendum. Ukrainians voted overwhelmingly to become an independent country, and not be a part of Russia. That established Ukraine's internationally recognized borders, and defines what should be regarded as Ukraine.
.......

I don't think you understand how a discussion works.

 

[GLASNOST]

Lindsey Graham & John McCain in Ukraine - Preparing for a proxy war with Russia (2016)

Thank you, Mr. Beale. Of course, the you-know-whos will claim it was a faulty translation or out of context or that McCain was only joking.

 

[MisterBeale]

Thank you, Mr. Beale. Of course, the you-know-whos will claim it was a faulty translation or out of context or that McCain was only joking.

No no, the history of this conflict really DID start in February of this year, nothing else matters. There was no history before it.

Putin is definitely insane, he can't be reasoned with, there is no point in even trying to enter into negotiations to find a peaceful solution that would solve it, which could save Ukraine from being utterly destroyed and certainly save thousands if not millions of lives.

Only a complete genocide of the Russian military, the death of Putin and the total destruction of the Russian federation is the only way to solve this.