CDZ There are TWO Genders: Change My Mind

Coyote

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In the end though - why does it and should it matter? Why do people have a problem seeing those who exist outside the XX and XY binary as being people?
Why does it matter so much to the left that many people only recognize two genders? Why is it so triggering?

All of you are still tap dancing, people “identifying” as something else still doesn’t change their actual gender.
I think you get "what matters" wrong.

What matters is treating people with the same respect and equality and acceptance as any other. What does it matter how they identify (unless they are using it to fraudulently exploit).
 

progressive hunter

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In the end though - why does it and should it matter? Why do people have a problem seeing those who exist outside the XX and XY binary as being people?
Why does it matter so much to the left that many people only recognize two genders? Why is it so triggering?

All of you are still tap dancing, people “identifying” as something else still doesn’t change their actual gender.
I think you get "what matters" wrong.

What matters is treating people with the same respect and equality and acceptance as any other. What does it matter how they identify (unless they are using it to fraudulently exploit).

it matters cause they/you want everyone else to believe and participating in something that isnt true or go to jail if we dont,,

we already have human rights so we all have equality,,
 

Bob Blaylock

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The biosocial approach (Money & Ehrhardt, 1972) is an interactionist approach where by nature and nurture both play a role in gender development.

John Money’s (1972) theory was that once a biological male or female is born, social labeling and differential treatment of boys and girls interact with biological factors to steer development. This theory was an attempt to integrate the influences of nature and nurture.
And how did Money's theories work out in real life?

 

Fort Fun Indiana

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Seriously, the hysteria of the left right now is absolutely insane.

Okay, we know of the two biological sexes, male and female. While there are genetic disorders that give people traits of both, those genetic disorders are extremely rare, and even when they do happen the person exhibits the traits of one sex much more predominantly than the other. The idea of a “hermaphrodite” is almost a myth, there really is no genetic disorder that allows for fully functional sex organs of both sexes. Besides, according to these “trans” advocates, gender is different than biological sex.

So we aren’t talking about people with some rare genetic disorder, as some have now started to move the goalposts and have been bringing them up. This is about “gender”.

These trans activists are claiming that a male can “be a woman” just by self identifying as one. Sure, they have the right to self identify all they want, but that doesn’t make their fantasy a reality, nor does or should society have to accept it.

For example, a male that pretends to be a female is still a man. He’s a cross dressing man.

A male that undergoes some “sex change” surgery is still a man and a male. His chromosomes do not change, they are still XY.

Same of course goes with females pretending to be men. Their biological sex does not change, so neither does their gender.


For those screaming in horror about the simple statement “there are TWO genders, men and women”, what are the other genders? Please provide specific examples.

This is Clean Debate Zone. Please keep the childish insults to yourself, and provide a clear and concise response.
Look down. What's that? Can't be a penis. Consider yourself convinced. :D

I keed... the "more than one gender" applies to psychology and it's constructs of gender compared to social constructs of gender. Genetically speaking, there are only two genders.
 

Leo123

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I think you get "what matters" wrong.

What matters is treating people with the same respect and equality and acceptance as any other. What does it matter how they identify (unless they are using it to fraudulently exploit).
Sex between a male and female fulfills nature's sexual program for Humans which is procreation and the survival of the species. Sex between males and males or females and females does not fulfill such a role. How one identifies is meaningless to biological forces.
 
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theHawk

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What matters is treating people with the same respect and equality and acceptance as any other. What does it matter how they identify (unless they are using it to fraudulently exploit).
So now treating people with respect is what this is all about?

No, I don’t need to respect or accept someone who is delusional.

Equality of what? They have all the same rights as everyone else.

It matters how they identify if it puts males or females in positions they do not belong in. A male does not belong in women’s sports, or in the military posing as a woman.
 

C_Clayton_Jones

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Seriously, the hysteria of the left right now is absolutely insane.

Okay, we know of the two biological sexes, male and female. While there are genetic disorders that give people traits of both, those genetic disorders are extremely rare, and even when they do happen the person exhibits the traits of one sex much more predominantly than the other. The idea of a “hermaphrodite” is almost a myth, there really is no genetic disorder that allows for fully functional sex organs of both sexes. Besides, according to these “trans” advocates, gender is different than biological sex.

So we aren’t talking about people with some rare genetic disorder, as some have now started to move the goalposts and have been bringing them up. This is about “gender”.

These trans activists are claiming that a male can “be a woman” just by self identifying as one. Sure, they have the right to self identify all they want, but that doesn’t make their fantasy a reality, nor does or should society have to accept it.

For example, a male that pretends to be a female is still a man. He’s a cross dressing man.

A male that undergoes some “sex change” surgery is still a man and a male. His chromosomes do not change, they are still XY.

Same of course goes with females pretending to be men. Their biological sex does not change, so neither does their gender.


For those screaming in horror about the simple statement “there are TWO genders, men and women”, what are the other genders? Please provide specific examples.

This is Clean Debate Zone. Please keep the childish insults to yourself, and provide a clear and concise response.
Sex and gender are not the same thing:

‘Transgender people have a current gender identity that differs from the sex assigned to them at birth, and comprise an estimated 1.4 million adults in the U.S. In recent years, transgender public health, clinical epidemiology, and medicine have begun to garner increasing interest, attention, and support as “legitimate” areas of scientific inquiry and domains for clinical care innovation. Accompanying this growth, and perhaps bi-directionally influencing it, has been a paradigmatic shift in the field of transgender health moving away from conceptualizing transgender as a “disorder” and toward conceptualizing transgender as an “identity.” Indeed, as gender diversity is becoming increasingly de-pathologized, there is beginning to be greater recognition of the proliferation of gender identities and heterogeneous gender presentations that exist for transgender people.

[…]

Non-binary refers to transgender people who have a gender identity that does not align with their sex assigned at birth and who identify outside of the traditional female-male gender binary, such as genderqueer, genderfluid, or gender nonconforming.[8] Non-binary people may have an identity and/or expression that is either feminine or masculine, both feminine and masculine, or neither. Non-binary individuals may also be pangender (two or more genders), bigender (female and male), agender (without any gender), neutrois (neutral or genderless), and many other diverse gender identities.’


As documented above, there are clearly more than two genders.

It’s unfortunate that there are those who seek to discriminate against those who are non-binary; such fear, ignorance, bigotry, and hate are indeed unwarranted.

Just as wrong, hateful, and unwarranted is to seek to compel non-binary individuals to conform to binary gender roles – “you were born a girl and should act and dress like a girl” is ignorant, bigoted nonsense.

Just as hateful and bigoted is to refer to non-binary individuals as being ‘sick,’ ‘perverted,’ or ‘mentally ill,’ when in fact that is not the case. Indeed, any mental health issues transgender and non-binary persons might manifest is the consequence of the discrimination, bigotry, and hate they must so often endure.

Transgender and non-binary Americans wish only to express themselves as individuals, to exercise their right to self-determination, free from bigotry, hate, and authoritarian political discrimination.
 
OP
theHawk

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It’s unfortunate that there are those who seek to discriminate against those who are non-binary; such fear, ignorance, bigotry, and hate are indeed unwarranted.
What “discrimination”?

If there are an infinite amount of imagined “genders”, then they can never be accommodated, and it serves no purpose to even try.

Calling someone a man because they are a male isn’t “bigotry” or “fear”, it’s simply stating reality.

The radicals keep claiming that those who don’t buy into these made up genders are bigots, or discriminating against them somehow, simply because we don’t have a special bathroom for their self-constructed gender, or because there isn’t a checkbox below the “male” and “female” checkboxes on a form.
 

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Gender is nothing more than a social construct.
Based entirely off biological sex.
Gender is based more off of cultural differences and such between the 2 sexes.
The term gets misused. A lot.
Are you claiming there are more than two genders? If not, I don’t see the point.
There can be as many as your imagination can come up. Its a construct. A never ending one.
There are 2 sexes. Its 100% fact. Good luck proving there are a limited number of things in a construct.
Dont get me wrong, i think the whole ordeal is stupid and narcissistic. I laugh at them all the time.
Agreed, although this is why trans people should really go back to calling themselves transsexuals. It was more accurate.

If you're going to the extent of changing your genitals and taking hormones, you're changing your sex, not your gender.
 

Utilitarian

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Seriously, the hysteria of the left right now is absolutely insane.

Okay, we know of the two biological sexes, male and female. While there are genetic disorders that give people traits of both, those genetic disorders are extremely rare, and even when they do happen the person exhibits the traits of one sex much more predominantly than the other. The idea of a “hermaphrodite” is almost a myth, there really is no genetic disorder that allows for fully functional sex organs of both sexes. Besides, according to these “trans” advocates, gender is different than biological sex.

So we aren’t talking about people with some rare genetic disorder, as some have now started to move the goalposts and have been bringing them up. This is about “gender”.

These trans activists are claiming that a male can “be a woman” just by self identifying as one. Sure, they have the right to self identify all they want, but that doesn’t make their fantasy a reality, nor does or should society have to accept it.

For example, a male that pretends to be a female is still a man. He’s a cross dressing man.

A male that undergoes some “sex change” surgery is still a man and a male. His chromosomes do not change, they are still XY.

Same of course goes with females pretending to be men. Their biological sex does not change, so neither does their gender.


For those screaming in horror about the simple statement “there are TWO genders, men and women”, what are the other genders? Please provide specific examples.

This is Clean Debate Zone. Please keep the childish insults to yourself, and provide a clear and concise response.
Sex and gender are not the same thing:

‘Transgender people have a current gender identity that differs from the sex assigned to them at birth, and comprise an estimated 1.4 million adults in the U.S. In recent years, transgender public health, clinical epidemiology, and medicine have begun to garner increasing interest, attention, and support as “legitimate” areas of scientific inquiry and domains for clinical care innovation. Accompanying this growth, and perhaps bi-directionally influencing it, has been a paradigmatic shift in the field of transgender health moving away from conceptualizing transgender as a “disorder” and toward conceptualizing transgender as an “identity.” Indeed, as gender diversity is becoming increasingly de-pathologized, there is beginning to be greater recognition of the proliferation of gender identities and heterogeneous gender presentations that exist for transgender people.

[…]

Non-binary refers to transgender people who have a gender identity that does not align with their sex assigned at birth and who identify outside of the traditional female-male gender binary, such as genderqueer, genderfluid, or gender nonconforming.[8] Non-binary people may have an identity and/or expression that is either feminine or masculine, both feminine and masculine, or neither. Non-binary individuals may also be pangender (two or more genders), bigender (female and male), agender (without any gender), neutrois (neutral or genderless), and many other diverse gender identities.’


As documented above, there are clearly more than two genders.

It’s unfortunate that there are those who seek to discriminate against those who are non-binary; such fear, ignorance, bigotry, and hate are indeed unwarranted.

Just as wrong, hateful, and unwarranted is to seek to compel non-binary individuals to conform to binary gender roles – “you were born a girl and should act and dress like a girl” is ignorant, bigoted nonsense.

Just as hateful and bigoted is to refer to non-binary individuals as being ‘sick,’ ‘perverted,’ or ‘mentally ill,’ when in fact that is not the case. Indeed, any mental health issues transgender and non-binary persons might manifest is the consequence of the discrimination, bigotry, and hate they must so often endure.

Transgender and non-binary Americans wish only to express themselves as individuals, to exercise their right to self-determination, free from bigotry, hate, and authoritarian political discrimination.
If gender is a social construct, then how is a gender assigned at birth? They seem to be using gender for what is actually sex.

In short, if someone is transgender or non-binary, then they shouldn't require surgery or hormones.

If someone is transsexual, then that's where surgery or hormones can be applicable.
 

Utilitarian

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In the end though - why does it and should it matter? Why do people have a problem seeing those who exist outside the XX and XY binary as being people?
Why does it matter so much to the left that many people only recognize two genders? Why is it so triggering?

All of you are still tap dancing, people “identifying” as something else still doesn’t change their actual gender.
I think you get "what matters" wrong.

What matters is treating people with the same respect and equality and acceptance as any other. What does it matter how they identify (unless they are using it to fraudulently exploit).
The flaw in much of the transgender narrative right now is that gender identity is partially what someone views themselves as and partially what others view them as.

If you "pass" as a woman, then you effectively have that identity. If you don't pass, then you've got some work to do if you want to be treated like a woman. The same goes for transmen.

It's not up to society to pretend that they perceive someone as what they desire. It's up to the individual to pass or just deal with what they look more like.
 

Bob Blaylock

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Seriously, the hysteria of the left right now is absolutely insane.

Okay, we know of the two biological sexes, male and female. While there are genetic disorders that give people traits of both, those genetic disorders are extremely rare, and even when they do happen the person exhibits the traits of one sex much more predominantly than the other. The idea of a “hermaphrodite” is almost a myth, there really is no genetic disorder that allows for fully functional sex organs of both sexes. Besides, according to these “trans” advocates, gender is different than biological sex.

So we aren’t talking about people with some rare genetic disorder, as some have now started to move the goalposts and have been bringing them up. This is about “gender”.

These trans activists are claiming that a male can “be a woman” just by self identifying as one. Sure, they have the right to self identify all they want, but that doesn’t make their fantasy a reality, nor does or should society have to accept it.

For example, a male that pretends to be a female is still a man. He’s a cross dressing man.

A male that undergoes some “sex change” surgery is still a man and a male. His chromosomes do not change, they are still XY.

Same of course goes with females pretending to be men. Their biological sex does not change, so neither does their gender.


For those screaming in horror about the simple statement “there are TWO genders, men and women”, what are the other genders? Please provide specific examples.

This is Clean Debate Zone. Please keep the childish insults to yourself, and provide a clear and concise response.
Sex and gender are not the same thing:

‘Transgender people have a current gender identity that differs from the sex assigned to them at birth, and comprise an estimated 1.4 million adults in the U.S. In recent years, transgender public health, clinical epidemiology, and medicine have begun to garner increasing interest, attention, and support as “legitimate” areas of scientific inquiry and domains for clinical care innovation. Accompanying this growth, and perhaps bi-directionally influencing it, has been a paradigmatic shift in the field of transgender health moving away from conceptualizing transgender as a “disorder” and toward conceptualizing transgender as an “identity.” Indeed, as gender diversity is becoming increasingly de-pathologized, there is beginning to be greater recognition of the proliferation of gender identities and heterogeneous gender presentations that exist for transgender people.

[…]

Non-binary refers to transgender people who have a gender identity that does not align with their sex assigned at birth and who identify outside of the traditional female-male gender binary, such as genderqueer, genderfluid, or gender nonconforming.[8] Non-binary people may have an identity and/or expression that is either feminine or masculine, both feminine and masculine, or neither. Non-binary individuals may also be pangender (two or more genders), bigender (female and male), agender (without any gender), neutrois (neutral or genderless), and many other diverse gender identities.’


As documented above, there are clearly more than two genders.

It’s unfortunate that there are those who seek to discriminate against those who are non-binary; such fear, ignorance, bigotry, and hate are indeed unwarranted.

Just as wrong, hateful, and unwarranted is to seek to compel non-binary individuals to conform to binary gender roles – “you were born a girl and should act and dress like a girl” is ignorant, bigoted nonsense.

Just as hateful and bigoted is to refer to non-binary individuals as being ‘sick,’ ‘perverted,’ or ‘mentally ill,’ when in fact that is not the case. Indeed, any mental health issues transgender and non-binary persons might manifest is the consequence of the discrimination, bigotry, and hate they must so often endure.

Transgender and non-binary Americans wish only to express themselves as individuals, to exercise their right to self-determination, free from bigotry, hate, and authoritarian political discrimination.
:cuckoo:
 

JoeMoma

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In the end though - why does it and should it matter? Why do people have a problem seeing those who exist outside the XX and XY binary as being people?
There is not a problem seeing these people as people. Lots of people are mentally ill, but most don't expect the rest of the world to deny reality to participate in their mental illness. Allowing biological boys/men compete in sports as girls/women is not fair to biological females. Its wrong to allow a boy suddenly declare himself to be a girl so that he can use the girl's restrooms and locker room. It's wrong to allow children to make the decision to take hormone blockers or have transgender surgery.
 

Coyote

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In the end though - why does it and should it matter? Why do people have a problem seeing those who exist outside the XX and XY binary as being people?
There is not a problem seeing these people as people. Lots of people are mentally ill, but most don't expect the rest of the world to deny reality to participate in their mental illness. Allowing biological boys/men compete in sports as girls/women is not fair to biological females. Its wrong to allow a boy suddenly declare himself to be a girl so that he can use the girl's restrooms and locker room. It's wrong to allow children to make the decision to take hormone blockers or have transgender surgery.
When something appears to be hardwired in a person is really reducable to just a mental illness? I think each issue needs to be treated seperately.

When it comes to using what restroom, I doubt a boy can simply claim one day, to be trans, so as to use the girls locker. Doesn't there need to be a bit more documented history first?

I do appreciate the concerns, they are valid in some ways but not so much in (for example the impression I get from some that trans people are just perverts waiting to molest someone).

In athletics though, I 100% agree it would make a mockery of women's sports, because biological identity is what creates the need for seperate leagues.
 

Bob Blaylock

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When something appears to be hardwired in a person is really reducable [sic] to just a mental illness? I think each issue needs to be treated seperately [sic].
Whether one can argue that a particular mental illness is “hardwired” or not, whatever that is supposed to mean, it does not diminish the status of any such disorder as a bona fide menial illness. If, somehow, I am “hardwired” to believe that I am Napoleon Bonaparte, the Emperor of France, the fact remains, undeniably, that no, I am not Napoleon Bonaparte, the Emperor of France. No difference if I somehow wind up “hardwired”, to believe that I am female, in spite of the undeniable biological proof that I am male.

Making excuses for mental illness does not in any way diminish the hard fact that mental illness is what it is.


When it comes to using what restroom, I doubt a boy can simply claim one day, to be trans, so as to use the girls locker. Doesn't there need to be a bit more documented history first?
In some places, yes, it really is that simple. All a man or boy has to do, now, in some jurisdictions, is to claim to “identify” as female, and if one does, one can no longer legally be denied access to women's restrooms, dressing rooms, locker rooms, etc.

And in any case, no amount of “documented history” or other related bullshit can make a boy into a girl, or change the moral fact that a boy has no damn business being in a girls' restroom.
 

rightwinger

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Biologically yes
Sexuality is more complicated
Another goalpost move. Yes, sexuality is different, straights and homosexuality.

Care to share a third gender with us?
Reality

Ones biology does not always match your sexuality
Trying to limit sexuality to just two distinct genders is not the way humans work
It has for thousands of years. Get back to me,when you can change dna.
We know that DNA is not the only factor in human sexuality. Why do you care so much about other people’s sexual preference?

No harm, no foul
 

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