Zone1 Theoretical question regarding Christian duty to forgive

[The Irish Ram]

Is it morally wrong to wish eternal torment on a piece of evil s#*@, even as bad as Hitler?

Yes. Even if you are not religious, it doesn't change the process. Because the extent that you judge another is the extent you will be judged. So, unless you are Mother Teresa, wishing for the eternal torment of someone else could put you in the same jeopardy. Refuse to pass judgment on another, and just let God handle it.

 

[BackAgain]

Yes. Even if you are not religious, it doesn't change the process. Because the extent that you judge another is the extent you will be judged. So, unless you are Mother Teresa, wishing for the eternal torment of someone else could put you in the same jeopardy. Refuse to pass judgment on another, and just let God handle it.

I believe that the admonition against “judging” other people is misinterpreted.

It doesn’t require that we not judge. Instead, it notes that the way we judge is the manner in which we may get judged. So if you’re biased and unfair and unwilling to consider both sides, for example, you may get that same disregard by the One who judges you.

On the other hand, I don’t claim (or pretend) to know.

 

[GreatestIam]

Hitler

We must be quick to forgive as it becomes universal and means we are also forgiving ourselves. Why? Because we all create each other. Hitler became the sum total given to him by all who interacted with him. That would be from birth to death. We are all living under those constraints. We are all innocent as none of us can help being who and what they are all all points in time. Some say we are all one. I say that -- We are all in this together, alone.

 

[BackAgain]

We must be quick to forgive as it becomes universal and means we are also forgiving ourselves. Why? Because we all create each other. Hitler became the sum total given to him by all who interacted with him. That would be from birth to death. We are all living under those constraints. We are all innocent as none of us can help being who and what they are all all points in time. Some say we are all one. I say that -- We are all in this together, alone.

Regardless of how we came to be, we are still all responsible for our own words and deeds (with reserved exceptions for the mentally retarded or brain-damaged).

 

[GreatestIam]

may we never have another like Hitler,

Hitler could only kill his enemy. Yahweh can cure as easily as kill, but chooses to kill. That make him a way more evil entity than Hitler.
Right?

 

[GreatestIam]

If they deserve it, they'll get it.

Yahweh used genocide, to the point where even Mosses refused to smash babies heads against stones. Yahweh denied him the promised land for his honest rejection of immoral genocide. Quite the prick that Yahweh. Right?

 

[GreatestIam]

a place for sinners

Strange how a God who is said to create all souls perfect, would need a place for imperfect souls. Even stranger is how the Bible has God giving more weight to the needs of the few than the needs of the many. That has to be immoral. Right?

 

[GreatestIam]

that God may be all in all.

You quoted a lot of supernatural B.S., but this last is true. This is known by Gnostics, but we reject Christian immorality, be it supernatural or real.

 

[BackAgain]

Strange how a God who is said to create all souls perfect, would need a place for imperfect souls. Even stranger is how the Bible has God giving more weight to the needs of the few than the needs of the many. That has to be immoral. Right?

I didn’t know that God supposedly makes all souls perfect. That kind of conflicts with a notion of “original sin.”

Caring for the needs of a specific few is hardly a matter of immorality.

 

[GreatestIam]

Satan is your father

Given that to an evolving species like ours, that competes for women, we can truthfully say that women are the root of all evil. I think that this is why Satan is depicted as female, and given that she has greater power than Yahweh, that makes her Yahweh's feminine side. Check her boobs.

 

[GreatestIam]

Refuse to pass judgment on another, and just let God handle it.

That is almost exactly what the Church told it's inquisitors when they could not tell the good Christians from the bad Christians while doing their Cathar inquisitions and land grab. Burn them all and let God sort them.

That was seen as Christianity at it's most heartless, and here you are proposing the same thing. Congrats. You are one of the bad Christians.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Is it morally wrong to wish eternal torment on a piece of evil s#*@, even as bad as Hitler?

Yes. Even if you are not religious, it doesn't change the process. Because the extent that you judge another is the extent you will be judged. So, unless you are Mother Teresa, wishing for eternal torment of someone else could put you in the same jeopardy. Refuse to pass judgment on another, and just let God handle it.

I believe that the admonition against “judging” other people is misinterpreted.

It doesn’t require that we not judge. Instead, it notes that the way we judge is the manner in which we may get judged. So if you’re biased and unfair and unwilling to consider both sides, for example, you may get that same disregard by the One who judges you.

On the other hand, I don’t claim (or pretend) to know.

There are a lot of verses about not judging. The theme is all the same, and the measure that we use to judge will be used to judge us. If our judgment is particularly unforgiving, so will our judgment be.
But there is a very important part to consider. It's not about the person we judge, but the part about our own future. Don't judge others, and you can avoid being judged when it is your turn.

Matthew 7:1: "Judge not, that you be not judged." < I like that part, and it is so easily obtained!

 

[BackAgain]

Matthew 7:1: "Judge not, that you be not judged." < I like that part, and it is so easily obtained!

I believe that’s one of the verses which is misunderstood.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I believe that’s one of the verses which is misunderstood.

The idea isn't so much that we judge, but more about, who the hell do you think you are to judge someone else.
Here is the verse in context:

Matthew 7:1-5 1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

verse 1. tells us what not to do.
verse 2 gives us the modus operandi of judgment.
verse 3. points out the hypocrisy of someone that has the nerve to condemn someone else.

 

[BackAgain]

The idea isn't so much that we judge, but more about, who the hell do you think you are to judge someone else.
Here is the verse in context:

Matthew 7:1-5 1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

verse 1. tells us what not to do.
verse 2 gives us the modus operandi of judgment.
verse 3. points out the hypocrisy of someone that has the nerve to condemn someone else.

As you judge (say with bias and disregard for the truth), so will you be judged.

That’s what you need to understand.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Hitler could only kill his enemy. Yahweh can cure as easily as kill, but chooses to kill. That make him a way more evil entity than Hitler.
Right?

Uh, how did you come up with this one?

He does not easily kill and he does not chose to kill. All entities are subject to the law of justice.

If you violate it, God can't help you.

 

[HikerGuy83]

As you judge (say with bias and disregard for the truth), so will you be judged.

That’s what you need to understand.

My experience is that this applies more to people than God.

God's judgement will be perfect. He loves us.

However, have you ever noticed that the gossip in the office is often the one most gossiped about when he/she is not around ?

 

[The Irish Ram]

As you judge (say with bias and disregard for the truth), so will you be judged.

That’s what you need to understand.

See the part you put in parentheses? You added that. So now it says that if you judge someone without regard for the truth or if you are biased, you'll be judged, otherwise go ahead and judge as long as you know the truth first. What if the truth you think you know is tainted, altered, a lie and you misjudge?
Here is a truth stated several times in scripture: You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it,.
Because in doing so, you can come to an erroneous meaning.

As far as knowing the truth, since God judges a man's heart for the truth, and we can't see a man's heart, the truth eludes us. That may be why God tells us not to judge. He said vengeance is His.

You didn't respond to the rest of the scripture that lays why not to do it right out there. It's that, never mind someone else's sins, sweep your own porch, part that tells us why we aren't qualified to do it.

Sometimes it just says what it means without any further metaphysical interpretation. Instead of trying to figure out who you are worthy to judge, and who you aren't, wouldn't it be more prudent just not to do it at all, and to accept the blessing of not being judged, if that's what that literally means?

 

[Foxfyre]

There is another thread in a different forum, here. It’s headline is:

Hitler admired Islam but hated the Arabs as a 'race'​

My original reaction to just he headline was: who cares about Yotler? I’m glad he’s dead if there really is a hell, I thought, I’d hope he was having a terrible time there. But that led me to this thought (and thread OP):

Is it morally wrong to wish eternal torment on a piece of evil s#*@, even as bad as Hitler? Or, if one is a Christian, is it one’s duty to seek mercy and charity even for that hideous scumbag murderous puke.

(I’m not very religious and I don’t mean to offend. I am just genuinely curious.)

Biblical forgiveness is not applying the consequences of law or obligation to another person's transgression or not requiring him/her to repay a debt. It is not pretending there was no sin or no debt owed.

When the woman in John 8 was to be stoned to death as the prescribed penalty for committing adultery, Jesus told those in the crowd, he who is without sin cast the first stone. The crowd went away without anyone throwing a stone. And Jesus told the woman "Neither do I condemn you (to death). Go and sin no more."

It's telling your child that you won't take away his allowance or ground him or otherwise punish him but don't do that again.

That is forgiveness.

 

[ding]

Is it morally wrong to wish eternal torment on a piece of evil s#*@

It seems to me the more meaningful question would be what does it say about their state of mind if they do. I see forgiving others as more to do with me than them. Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting. When I forgive I am letting it go and letting go the power it held over me. But I'm not forgetting it like it didn't happen. I'm not erasing the memory. I am erasing the feeling the memory gives me.

With that said, examples like Hitler aren't that useful because grudges are personal and usually involve people we know personally. That's where the real test occurs.