The War on Public Schools Continues, Only Now It’s Considered Reinvention’

[Unkotare]

... They cannot pass the classes if they do not read and write in English. ...

"do not read and write in English" is a matter of degree, and non-native speakers of English pass classes all the time.

Maybe in your area, but I had students in Florida whom I considered to be excellent students who could not pass the assessment test for graduation.

Not every native speaker passes either.

Man, you are asshole [sic] that likes to put words in other people's mouths! I neve [sic] said they didn't, dumbass!

You brought it up, not me.

 

[luchitociencia]

There are some very wealthy interests that are working toward the privatization of the education system. Any drop in funding results in a gap that is immediately assumed by large corporations.
At the end of the day it IS easier to have a computer teach a course than to have a human. Technology is growing very quickly. In the future, the only individuals being taught by a human will be the wealthy classes of society.

Mapping the Movement to Dismantle Public Education

It's not just the Koch brothers: a state by state look at the forces driving school privatization.

www.jacobinmag.com

Private business trying to take public schools is like Amazon trying to take the whole Post Office letters deliveries charging 50 cent stamps. It won't work.

 

[luchitociencia]

No Child Left Behind.

Terrible law. Both of my parents are teachers, and both retired after No Child Left Behind.

Both retired because of No Child Left Behind. There was a massive amount of burden of paperwork, and unfair assessments.

Best law ever is rating the students for what they understood and what they know after receiving classes.

This is the way of rating in all levels of education. You want to be a doctor, there you go, you must pass the tests, you want to be a plumber, you also must pass the tests plus the open book code test.

Why public school students are exonerated of passing tests in order to pass grades AS IT IS DONE WITH PRIVATE SCHOOLS? My children studied in private school, the worst school for them to have time left for fun: a Catholic school. I felt sorry for the excessive homework and preparations for tests. But they learned, they passed the tests. And my children are just average when is about capacity to learn.

As a Teacher you can't force kids to study hard for tests. You can encourage them until the day you die, and you'll just die. Why should you as a teacher, be judged for the willful incompetence of the student?

Best is to encourage the student to encourage himself to become better. No student can be successful without he himself trying his best.

And how can you motivate a student, who believe (correctly) that they will go to high school, and then college, whether they pass the test or not?

Attorneys, who were students in private schools are the ones to blame. They incite the parents of a failed student to blame the school when their son can't pass the grade. A law suit is made because the "trauma" caused to their son after knowing he won't pass the grade and must repeat it again next year.

Pull the license from all those corrupt attorneys, restore the law of "you don't pass the test then you don't pass the grade" and see the results will be different.

You will claim students will only prepare to answer questions of a test.

My answer: At least they will learn solely those answers, because right now they don't learn shit.

And lastly, the teacher has no ability to control what students they end up with. Honestly, some students just suck. They have emotional problems, or behavior problems, and they can't expel them, and can't get rid of them, and there is nothing the teacher can do.

With all those issues, that student still has the right to receive education. Period.

Who told you that being a teacher is an easy job?

But the teacher gets judged for the bad students they have to deal with?

Laws must protect the students, all of them. A trouble student who can't be controlled by parents and teachers must be set apart to receive just basic skills in a training school under security with guards. No need to treat him roughly. Drug addict students the same, to be sent to educational shops without windows. They will wish to get out of that place on next class semester. But as soon as he returns to drugs or vicious behavior, next day to be sent to the training school again.

The dumb student issue has been solved already with Special Education programs.

So both my parents retired over this Federal over-reach. The Federal government has no business being involved in local schools. At all.

So, before the "no child left behind", did your parent's students learn the subjects without problems?

I don't think so.

Look, "equality" in education is not rated by the number of higher grades but by the teaching given to all in the same class.

This is to say, the teacher's job is to provide the lessons and explain them. From here, each student is on his own. Teachers must report the issues found in students and the school psychologist is the one to prescribe the best method of learning for students who can't learn with the standard method.

As you can see, the teacher can't be blamed for the grade rates of students if the teacher has been explaining the lessons in accord with the program.

If the school is full or children with traumas, so be it. The teacher must continue with his job of explaining lessons the way the curriculum establishes. The teacher is not the parent of the students.

It is the job of parents to follow up the education of their children at home, and CONSULT with teachers and the school psychologist for the best method to improve learning in their children.

Parents can't demand beyond the standard explanation of the lessons by the teacher.

You are corect when you say that teachers are not the ones to be blamed.

The current problem is how society has decayed so low in the US that children's learning troubles are carried from home to school because broken families, cheating spouses, drugs, alcohol, same sex marriages and all the garbage which has been imposed by politicians to be "tolerated".

You complaint the Fed government intervention in public schools, however you avoid confronting the real problem which is politics imposing social decay to be accepted by society.

Look back times when no drugs, alcohol, spouse cheating were accepted in families. Public school education was way better because society was decent, straight, honorable.

Today, students from homes with good standards are successful even when coming out from public schools. I can tell because I know some of them, and they graduated with university diploma years later.

About the rest, many also are successful with different careers not related to college or university.

The job of school is to provide the lessons needed to acquire knowledge of different matters. The job of schools is not creating geniuses.

The reason why public schools can't return back to the good old system which worked fine in the past is because today's society lacks of respect to the authority. Children at home see their social resent parents insulting president Trump everyday, then, how the hell you expect those students to respect their teacher at school?

Don't blame public schools, blame the current decayed society.

Why public school students are exonerated of passing tests in order to pass grades AS IT IS DONE WITH PRIVATE SCHOOLS?

Again, we've tried it. It doesn't work. That law was passed in 2002, and we still have worthless students being pumped out of those schools.

You can talk like it should work until the end of time... it doesn't. End of story... plan A failed. Need a new plan.

Best is to encourage the student to encourage himself to become better. No student can be successful without he himself trying his best.

Does not work. You can encourage until the end of time. Then he doesn't study, does badly on the tests, and you get blamed as a bad teacher.

Pull the license from all those corrupt attorneys, restore the law of "you don't pass the test then you don't pass the grade" and see the results will be different.

Correct. Just one problem, the parents will fight that, and you end up where you are now. If you get rid of the attorneys, the parents will simply find another.

In the meantime, the teachers are judged unfairly because students refuse to learn.

This is to say, the teacher's job is to provide the lessons and explain them. From here, each student is on his own. Teachers must report the issues found in students and the school psychologist is the one to prescribe the best method of learning for students who can't learn with the standard method.

Fine... but that's not how the system works. The teacher is held accountable for how many students pass the grade.

But Teacher can't force the student to pass the grade. So why should you get hammered as a teacher, for students actions you can't control? Again you say until the end of time, that the teacher's job is to provide the lesson, and then it's on the students.

Great I agree. Doesn't work that way.

With all those issues, that student still has the right to receive education. Period.

And that statement right there is why students are coming out stupid. You can say that until the end of time, and you are just ruining kids lives. You just wrecking education.

You realize that almost no other country on the planet has that view? If you don't behave in class, and if you don't make the grades, you are removed.

If you don't pass the entrance exam to get into the high school you try to enter, then you don't go.

Same in Finland and Japan. If you have problems, or emotional issues, or behavior issues, or you don't pass the test, they remove you from the class, and you don't go to school.

In fact, nearly all countries operate this way. There is no... your child can be a complete basket case, hellion, and they have a "right" to an education.

You don't keep up, you get removed. You don't pass the entrance exam, then you don't go at all. You can't keep your mouth shut, or not bother the kids around you, you got home and you stay there.

And that is how it should be. This "right" to an education, needs eliminated it. The system is being abused.

And here is what happens. Your neighbors hellion, sits and distracts the entire class with your kid in it, and then he doesn't learn anything either. Or that kid end up asking questions non-stop because he's so far behind that he completely monopolizes the teachers time, and nothing gets taught, or no one else who could actually benefit from the teacher's attention, gets the help they could use.

It does not work. Period.

If the school is full or children with traumas, so be it. The teacher must continue with his job of explaining lessons the way the curriculum establishes. The teacher is not the parent of the students.

And this logic here, is exactly why we spend more money on education than any other school system in the world, and our kids come out stupid. Your system is a fail. It does not work.

You complaint the Fed government intervention in public schools, however you avoid confronting the real problem which is politics imposing social decay to be accepted by society.

Well yeah... of course. The topic is public education. Public education can't fix moral and social decay. If you think it can, let's hear how, because I don't see how teaching kids "Be nice" is going to change them from being criminals to hard working productive members of society.

If the topic of the thread was simply "reasons why" I would list social decay and moral break down, is a major contributing factor.

The topic is war on public schools, and everything I listed above is why there is a war on public schools. They suck. They suck for reasons the schools can't do anything about, like moral decay and social break down... and they suck for reasons they could change but won't.... such as government intervention, the teachers unions, the requirement to teach all kids, even if some are not worth teaching, or refuse to learn.

So yes, I'm focusing on what they could do, that private schools do better, which is why we should privatize all public schools, or allow for mass voucher programs, to get kids out of public schools.

Parents can't demand beyond the standard explanation of the lessons by the teacher.
You are corect when you say that teachers are not the ones to be blamed.

I did not say that. There are many things the teachers can't control. But they are not all things are beyond the control of the Teachers. In fact many things are in control.

And Parents most certainly can demand just about anything. And the reason why, you already mentioned.
"that student still has the right to receive education. Period."

You don't seem to understand what they statement implies. When people say you have right to liberty, do they mean you can work and earn freedom? When people say you have a right to life, do they mean if you work hard you can pay enough money to save your life?

When people say there should be a right to health care, do they mean if you work really hard you can earn health care?

Of course not. A right, is something that you get, because you simply deserve it, because it is a right. You don't have to work for a right.

So parents believe that they have the right to demand anything from teachers. You can say they don't, but every time you say kids have a right to education, you justify their position to demand anything.

And this is part of the reason why some of the blame does lay on teachers, because many teachers roll over, rather than fight.

Short story....

In my home town, we had a government assisted housing pop up. Why the city allowed this in our suburb, I don't know, but instantly it was a crime hot spot, as all "give people government money" ends up.

Well one of those kids, a girl, showed up in my mothers class. The girl was a hellion. A tiny terror of misery and problems. During the parent-teacher meeting, the parent accused my mother of being a terrible teacher, and was singling her child out for mistreatment, and failing to educate her because her grades were low.

Fact is.. many teachers would start bending over backwards to make that hellion spawn happy, and giving her passing grades on bad exams, in order to appease this nightmare child and parent.... because "They have a right to education".

Instead my mother fought it, and fought it hard. She sent that girl to the office so many times, they should have put her name on a reservation placard on the seat. My mother filed complaints, and sent messages, and this went all the way up the chain of command, until the city redrew the school district, made that little gov-housing place part of the inner city schools, and shipped her back to them.

This is the reality.

And it's not just that even..... there are some horrifically bad teachers, even in the best of school districts. I went to an upper-middle class school, which was rate the best public school in the entire area.

Even there, we had just ridiculously bad teachers. We had a math teacher that would come in, put a VHS tape in, hit play, and read magazines. Then at the end of the week, give a quiz on what was on the tape. Beside doing roll call, he didn't do jack. Worthless teacher.

Had another teacher that did this every single week. On Monday he would give out reading assignments, and a quiz. We were require to read the book on our own, out of class. Then we would take the quiz on Monday.

So what did we do all week? We reviewed what was on the quiz, that was already given on Monday, for the reading assignment for the prior week. I barely passed that class. Because I was always learn everything, for the quiz that was already over. Only on the exams, did I score well, because we had covered the material.

And I could go on. Teachers that spent the entire day, day-dreaming or telling stories, and taught nothing.

And this was the best public school in the area. Best one. And we had terrible teachers.

And you can read about the rubber rooms in NYC. Where unions made it so hard to fire bad teachers, that they had to pay them a full salary, to sit in a room and never teach.

So there are tons of reason why private schools, charter schools, and religious schools routinely do a better job.

The disagreement between us is clear, and while I use the several options to find a solution you just dedicated yourself to the case of your parents and yours.

You must realize that the culture in the US is different between States, and also different between the zones of a same city.

You have your children in Georgetown public school in Washington DC and the education given will be very similar to private school's. But you put your children in public school located in the Southeast of Washington DC near Maryland and there you have it, the disastrous public school you are very familiar with.

I told you before that this is a social issue more than public education alone.

I went to Massachusetts, visiting the stone the Pilgrims walked over and all that stuff. When I was crossing the street, a truck was on its way and the driver saw me. The driver stop at the middle of the block far away from the corner, and he didn't go forward until I put my two feet on the other side of the street.

I did the same in Georgia, crossing a street I had to fight with the drivers who ignored me plus others accelerated their cars trying to beat my walking in front of me. It was war.

Two different cultures.

While teenagers in Florida talk about disco, drugs, boyfriends.girlfriends, at the beach table while eating fried chicken, teenagers at the beach table in Rhode Island talk about careers, marriage, etc. while having fried chicken.

Funny small dialogue in Rhode Island. The young blond girl who seems interested in one of the boys, asked him what he will do when school year is over. He, drinking his soda turned sarcastic
-Hmm, working in the shop with my father, I guess getting married, have my house, have my dog...
-Stop that, seriously...
-@@@@@ college... you?
-hmm bringing lunch to my husband at his father shop, cleaning the house, walking the dog...
Both of them laughing.


If the public school in your area is a disaster, then or change your local society or, just move somewhere else or, do like I did, deciding for private school as the alternative.

Not everybody can afford the cost of private schools, even when investing in education is a good investment for the benefit of your children, and for many families this decision carries lots of sacrifice.

Keep in mind that many private schools are not good as well.

Best private schools are the ones who compete for having the best students and the best parents willing to pay the tuition fees.

If public schools disappear and private schools receive students with vouchers, these private schools won't need to compete with others but having good income by the huge number of students. At the end, those private schools will become public schools in private buildings.

 

[Unkotare]

...

I went to Massachusetts, visiting the stone the Pilgrims walked over and all that stuff. When I was crossing the street, a truck was on its way and the driver saw me. The driver stop at the middle of the block far away from the corner, and he didn't go forward until I put my two feet on the other side of the street.

I did the same in Georgia, crossing a street I had to fight with the drivers who ignored me plus others accelerated their cars trying to beat my walking in front of me. It was war.

Two different cultures.

While teenagers in Florida talk about disco, drugs, boyfriends.girlfriends, at the beach table while eating fried chicken, teenagers at the beach table in Rhode Island talk about careers, marriage, etc. while having fried chicken.

...

I don't know what country you're from, but you really don't seem to understand the US as much as you think you do.

 

[luchitociencia]

I don't know what country you're from, but you really don't seem to understand the US as much as you think you do.

Perhaps you are right, because I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

 

[Unkotare]

I don't know what country you're from, but you really don't seem to understand the US as much as you think you do.

Perhaps you are right, because I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

Well for one thing, people from other states often refer to people from Massachusetts as "Massholes" in large part because of our aggressive driving. On the other hand, people from southern states are generally seen as being more laid back, courteous, and hospitable. Rhode Island has some of the most white-trashy white trash in the entire country. As for Florida, that place just defies characterization. No one ever said "I can't believe that happened in Florida!"

What country are you from?

 

[luchitociencia]

Well for one thing, people from other states often refer to people from Massachusetts as "Massholes" in large part because of our aggressive driving. On the other hand, people from southern states are generally seen as being more laid back, courteous, and hospitable. Rhode Island has some of the most white-trashy white trash in the entire country. As for Florida, that place just defies characterization. No one ever said "I can't believe that happened in Florida!"

What country are you from?

No, I first ask the question.

After reading your babbling, which contradicts my personal experience traveling almost all around the US, I think you are just repeating the news from the Enquirer magazine publication. Bad move from your part.

Perhaps by chance I visited the best areas of some States without knowing it, perhaps you are mentioning records from the worst areas of those same States... perhaps...

So, like I have mentioned before about the difference of public school education between Washington DC NW Georgetown against Washington DC SE and also SW near the Maryland border, because their differences in society, same as well between your point and mine there is also a confrontation because our opinions come from different locations of those States which practically have differences in culture..

Lets say that without knowing it, I have visited the good areas of some States, but you claim that society in those States are traffic violators and "white trash people", so here is my question to which I am not interested about your answer, same way I won't answer to your question, but here it goes anyway:

Excuse me, but, what ghetto are you from?

 

[Unkotare]

...After reading your babbling, which contradicts my personal experience traveling almost all around the US,...

Your tour bus didn't give you a comprehensive understanding of my country.

 

[luchitociencia]

...After reading your babbling, which contradicts my personal experience traveling almost all around the US,...

Your tour bus didn't give you a comprehensive understanding of my country.

OK OK, I give up. I will follow your suggestion. From tomorrow I will start traveling again, and who knows, in one of my trips I might see you and take pictures together with you... 6ft distance of course.

I will check for the best company offering slum tourism in the US.

About the topic, online teaching might be a solid alternative if public schools were to be downsized.

 

[ChemEngineer]

They don't get to pick and choose. They take everyone.

Ah, the old "take everyone" excuse.
Years ago, the New York City Superintendent stood up in a packed room and gave that scammy speech. "I'd like to see the Catholic Church take our worst students and educate them!" Teachers cheered until a very stately Nun stood up and said, "On behalf of the New York City Archdiocese, I accept your offer."

The public school district never lived up to its preachy claim. No bottom rung students to the Catholic Church, you betcha.

John Stossel stood up and made the same offer, to take a classroom of the worst. They didn't want him showing them up either.

Here's the corker: There are FOUR Charter Schools created by a billionaire in New York City.
ALL FOUR OF THEM have average performance at the 88th to the 99th percentile among the 1200 or so schools there. The Teacher's Union said it wanted to show people how it's done, so it was given its own Charter School to operate and show everybody else up.

Oops! Fourth percentile. Abysmal performance. It was threatened with takeover by some higher authority. You can't get any more information from anybody there, such is the embarrassment.

 

[ChemEngineer]

OK OK, I give up. I will follow your suggestion. From tomorrow I will start traveling again, and who knows, in one of my trips I might see you and take pictures together with you... 6ft distance of course.

Be afraid. Be very, very afraid. After all, fear is THE driving force for Leftists.
FEAR climate change.
FEAR Bad Orange Man.
FEAR Covid19, with a death rate of (GASP!) 0.02%.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

They don't get to pick and choose. They take everyone.

Ah, the old "take everyone" excuse.
Years ago, the New York City Superintendent stood up in a packed room and gave that scammy speech. "I'd like to see the Catholic Church take our worst students and educate them!" Teachers cheered until a very stately Nun stood up and said, "On behalf of the New York City Archdiocese, I accept your offer."

The public school district never lived up to its preachy claim. No bottom rung students to the Catholic Church, you betcha.

John Stossel stood up and made the same offer, to take a classroom of the worst. They didn't want him showing them up either.

Here's the corker: There are FOUR Charter Schools created by a billionaire in New York City.
ALL FOUR OF THEM have average performance at the 88th to the 99th percentile among the 1200 or so schools there. The Teacher's Union said it wanted to show people how it's done, so it was given its own Charter School to operate and show everybody else up.

Oops! Fourth percentile. Abysmal performance. It was threatened with takeover by some higher authority. You can't get any more information from anybody there, such is the embarrassment.
View attachment 346738

What exactly are you trying to prove? Are you saying charter schools can suck too? That is what you did, although I do not think that was your intent.