The war on freedom

[lilcountriegal]

The flights were "switched" on paper by United Employees making errors. Flt. 93 did end up in Pennsylvania, y'know. I've seen the rubble.

I've also seen the burning fuselage of Flt. 77 at the Pentagon. The small hole in the pentagon was likely caused by one of the jet engines, because the fuselage was at the section of major collapse (with the fallen roof).

And as far as the planes going into the WTC looking like cargo planes? On the very morning of Sept. 11th I saw what looked like a cargo jet driven by a kamikaze pilot into the No. 2 Tower, but that was only because the camera was facing south and one cannot see the windows on the north side of a plane in broad daylight, sometimes.

But what was the Government was doing that day?...

I'm assuming you're from the "other" board. If so, welcome. If not, welcome.

I'm having a little problem following your post. In the beginning, you discredit the "conspiracy theory" of cargo planes hitting the tower and missles hitting the Pentagon. Then you end your post by subtly (sp?) suggesting the government had something to do with it.

What do you think happened?

 

[Daniel]

When my grandparents went to see the rubble of flight 93, there was a guide there that told them there were only two witnesses that saw the plane, this is not true, there were many many witnesses and many of them actually saw military jets flying around.

Why was the rubble from the plane spread over such a large area?

To me, an explination for this is that somehow the plane broke up mid air before falling to the ground.

As for the pentagon, i would like to know how a hijacker who had very limited flying experience could fly a 757 with precision accuracy into the pentagon, and to top that, make a hole only 16x20 and if the plane did hit the ground before impact, where is the crater?? a 757 has a wingspan of 150ft...

Where is the footage of the plane going into the building? afterall the pentagon is the most protected building in the US, cameras everywhere but somehow we dont have any footage of the plane hitting. I find this strange.

Once again look at the pictures

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

 

[lilcountriegal]

When my grandparents went to see the rubble of flight 93, there was a guide there that told them there were only two witnesses that saw the plane, this is not true, there were many many witnesses and many of them actually saw military jets flying around.

Why was the rubble from the plane spread over such a large area?

To me, an explination for this is that somehow the plane broke up mid air before falling to the ground.

As for the pentagon, i would like to know how a hijacker who had very limited flying experience could fly a 757 with precision accuracy into the pentagon, and to top that, make a hole only 16x20 and if the plane did hit the ground before impact, where is the crater?? a 757 has a wingspan of 150ft...

Where is the footage of the plane going into the building? afterall the pentagon is the most protected building in the US, cameras everywhere but somehow we dont have any footage of the plane hitting. I find this strange.

Once again look at the pictures

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

I didnt check your link yet, I'll do that after my post. To answer some of your qeustions, I live within a 30 mile area of where Flight 93 crashed. There were military jets around that time, however they didnt fire on Flight 93. You are correct, there were many witnesses, not just a couple. There was debris spread for up to 8 miles around the crash scene.

As far as the Pentagon, on one of the links you provided, they do have the 5 frames of security footage of the plane going into Pentagon. What more can people ask for? Every time a piece of evidence develops that proves the conspiracy theory wrong, the conspiracy theorist claim "conspiracy" (if that makes sense ). Information of all sorts on 9/11 interests me. I read information of this level with an open mind, however, the switched flights (of which I am really interested in your thoughts of the switched flights), the missles supposedly being fired into the Pentagon, WTC are just a bit far fetched. There were thousands of witnesses to those 4 planes... not one that I've read, even on your sites, claims to have seen the American Airlines "fire" on the building before impact.

Checking out your link now.

 

[lilcountriegal]

Hi Daniel. I checked out your link along with the pictures. You link to this and ask how can a plane cause this damage..

I believe its in teh photography. Here's another picture of the Pentagon with a different view:

It damaged all 5 rings of the Pentagon, not just the outter ring. Read up on the construction of that building.. it was built to withstand terrorist acts. What I do question is this: the Pentagon is equipped with missles to defend itself against attack. I cant quite figure out why it didnt fire on Flight 77... there was a significant amount of time (40 mins?) between the towers and the Pentagon... I dont think that's a "government cover up" as much as a "government flub up".

Interesting stuff tho.

**on edit... Mr. Yuck probably could be big enough to have a plane flown into him. Apparently the website doesnt allow hotlinking images. for the picture check out this site ... you might want to take a glance at what the article says as well.

 

[Comrade]

I'm assuming you're from the "other" board. If so, welcome. If not, welcome.

I'm having a little problem following your post. In the beginning, you discredit the "conspiracy theory" of cargo planes hitting the tower and missles hitting the Pentagon. Then you end your post by subtly (sp?) suggesting the government had something to do with it.

What do you think happened?

I think this link does the best job of pointing out popular urban legends surrounding the attacks on the Pentagon on 9/11, part of a whole set of conspiracies which began maybe the week after, continues to be repeated with almost a smug kind of pride for being so clever about being able to repeat them, of course now it's almost four years since we've all first heard of them shortly before they were disproven.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm


There seems to be a sick fetish going around with some on the left about 9/11 conspiracies. They seem to feel perfectly justified in continuing to doubt the true nature of the attacks and simply maintain an anti Bush agenda without regard for truth or logic.

When cornered, they'll fall back to F-911 and how Bush had continued to read after attack, which will politely be explained as how he failed to react as expected of a leader.... which is what we shall call the 'stupid Bush' theory.

However, if you paid attention to what M. M. was really spelling out in the film, the belief of his followers, which as you notice slips out often, is the 'evil genius Bush' alternative, making him complicit with the attacks and able to fool the masses.

I can't fathom how someone can use the most horrific tragedy in American history to such ends, but some are willfull decievers and some are fervent followers of the lie spread by them.

You just have to figure out which one they are.

 

[Daniel]

Lilcountrygal, i know that there was one piece of footage that was released.

However, carefully look at it, you will see that there is no plane in that footage, none at all, just a vapor trail. I never knew that 757's left vapor trails like that, but i do know that missiles leave a similar trail, as well as the global hawk.

Also, the pic you posted was after the building collapsed, if you look at the pictures of before the building collapsed, the damage if very minimal, and the hole very small.

Frame 1

http://www.humanunderground.com/11september/s11-media/frame1.jpg

Frame 2

http://www.humanunderground.com/11september/s11-media/frame2.jpg

Frame 3

http://www.humanunderground.com/11september/s11-media/frame3.jpg

 

[JIHADTHIS]

You guys will think I'm off my rocker, but I've always suspected that Flight 93 was shot down, and all subsequent details, commisions and investigations have used the passengers forcing the plane down to make everyone feel better.
I can't prove it and am not an authority on it, just my gut feeling.

 

[Merlin1047]

There seems to be a sick fetish going around with some on the left about 9/11 conspiracies. They seem to feel perfectly justified in continuing to doubt the true nature of the attacks and simply maintain an anti Bush agenda without regard for truth or logic.

When cornered, they'll fall back to F-911 and how Bush had continued to read after attack, which will politely be explained as how he failed to react as expected of a leader.... which is what we shall call the 'stupid Bush' theory.

However, if you paid attention to what M. M. was really spelling out in the film, the belief of his followers, which as you notice slips out often, is the 'evil genius Bush' alternative, making him complicit with the attacks and able to fool the masses.

I can't fathom how someone can use the most horrific tragedy in American history to such ends, but some are willfull decievers and some are fervent followers of the lie spread by them.

You just have to figure out which one they are.

Excellent analysis. It's entertaining to watch as the left causes G.W. to undergo a metamorphosis from a dumbass to a machiavellian manipulator and evil genius.

And this from the article you sourced also explains a lot:

"The notion that the Pentagon was not damaged by terrorists who hijacked American Airlines Flight 77 (a Boeing 757) and crashed it into the military office complex, but that the whole affair was staged by the U.S. government, has been promulgated by French author Thierry Meyssan in his book, The Frightening Fraud. Meyssan offers no real explanation for what did cause the extensive damage to the Pentagon, asserting only that Flight 77 did not exist, no plane crashed into the Pengaton, and that "the American government is lying."

French again. Wouldn't you know it.

 

[lilcountriegal]

Lilcountrygal, i know that there was one piece of footage that was released.

However, carefully look at it, you will see that there is no plane in that footage, none at all, just a vapor trail. I never knew that 757's left vapor trails like that, but i do know that missiles leave a similar trail, as well as the global hawk.

Also, the pic you posted was after the building collapsed, if you look at the pictures of before the building collapsed, the damage if very minimal, and the hole very small.

Frame 1

http://www.humanunderground.com/11september/s11-media/frame1.jpg

Frame 2

http://www.humanunderground.com/11september/s11-media/frame2.jpg

Frame 3

http://www.humanunderground.com/11september/s11-media/frame3.jpg

I've seen those still shots, I've watched as they were put in motion, and I've seen what someone in one of your links photoshopped to put an actual 757 Boeing in there. I read in one place that the photos were "leaked" by the Pentagon, "stolen" from the Pentagon, and then they were doctored. One even suggested that the ticket booth presnet in the picture was placed there to obstruct the view. Like someone moved this specifically there for that day. Can you not see teh absurdness in some of that?

As far as the damage to the Pentagon, please read on:

The Pentagon Building Performance Report concludes that original design features–aided by recent upgrades–of the 6.5-million-sq-ft home of the Dept. of Defense were key to limiting collapse after a hijacked airplane slammed into the building. In the Pentagon, continuity refers to the use of the extension of bottom beam reinforcement through girders and bottom girder reinforcement through columns. Redundancy refers to the structure's two-way beam and girder system. Spirally reinforced columns provided energy-absorbing capacity. Reserve strength was provided by the original design for live load in excess of service.

The first major renovation of the five-story facility, completed in 1943, was under way at the time of the attack. The first phase of the work in Wedge One–the point of impact–included blast-resistant windows and was near completion on Sept. 11. "

Link to full article

Or pick any one of these engineering sites that come up when you Google the structure of the Pentagon.

Google results

The Pentagon was built a hell of alot stronger than teh Towers were Daniel. The Pentagon is a government building, they would almost have to take into consideration a terrorist threat when making the design of the building itself.

Im not convinced at all on the Pentagon theory of a missle attack. At all. Where did the flights go Daniel? The ones that were supposed to have been switched? I'm actually really interested in the answer from a person who believes the flights were switched where they believe teh actual flights went if they didnt hit the Tower/Pentagon..

 

[lilcountriegal]

You guys will think I'm off my rocker, but I've always suspected that Flight 93 was shot down, and all subsequent details, commisions and investigations have used the passengers forcing the plane down to make everyone feel better.
I can't prove it and am not an authority on it, just my gut feeling.

I hardly think thats nuts Jihad. Like I said, I live here where 93 crashed there were fighter jets in the area that were scrambled.

However, it was common knowledge that the order to shoot had been given so I dont place this in the "conspiracy theory" category. Everyone knew that was a possibility. Frankly, I couldn't care less how it went down. The people on that flight were heros to me regardless.

 

[JIHADTHIS]

I hardly think thats nuts Jihad. Like I said, I live here where 93 crashed there were fighter jets in the area that were scrambled.

However, it was common knowledge that the order to shoot had been given so I dont place this in the "conspiracy theory" category. Everyone knew that was a possibility. Frankly, I couldn't care less how it went down. The people on that flight were heros to me regardless.

Thanks.

As far as the other theories that Daniel & Co. subscribe to, they will never be able to convice me of their merit. The cargo planes, fuel pods and guided missiles are looney tunes.....

 

[Comrade]

Lilcountrygal, i know that there was one piece of footage that was released.

However, carefully look at it, you will see that there is no plane in that footage, none at all, just a vapor trail. I never knew that 757's left vapor trails like that, but i do know that missiles leave a similar trail, as well as the global hawk.

Also, the pic you posted was after the building collapsed, if you look at the pictures of before the building collapsed, the damage if very minimal, and the hole very small.

Frame 1

http://www.humanunderground.com/11september/s11-media/frame1.jpg

Frame 2

http://www.humanunderground.com/11september/s11-media/frame2.jpg

Frame 3

http://www.humanunderground.com/11september/s11-media/frame3.jpg

What is the problem with this link, and the pictures of the aftermath clearly showing aircraft debris visible in half way down the page. And the eyewitness accounts? Is this denial?

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

 

[lilcountriegal]

Thanks.

As far as the other theories that Daniel & Co. subscribe to, they will never be able to convice me of their merit. The cargo planes, fuel pods and guided missiles are looney tunes.....

Has any conspiracy theorist ever said where the original planes, full of passengers, went? I cant seem to get a straight answer out of any of them regarding this. Do they think the government killed them all? Sent them to a remote prison? Paid them off? I mean, if they didnt smash into the towers, they have to be somewhere. I've never heard their theory as to where... they're all to elusive to that question.

 

[JIHADTHIS]

Has any conspiracy theorist ever said where the original planes, full of passengers, went? I cant seem to get a straight answer out of any of them regarding this. Do they think the government killed them all? Sent them to a remote prison? Paid them off? I mean, if they didnt smash into the towers, they have to be somewhere. I've never heard their theory as to where... they're all to elusive to that question.

All the wackiness I've waded through usually claims that the flights never existed in the first place........no planes, no passengers, nada. Just some old cargo planes painted to match commercial airliners flown by remote control.

 

[lilcountriegal]

What is the problem with this link, and the pictures of the aftermath clearly showing aircraft debris visible in half way down the page. And the eyewitness accounts? Is this denial?

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

Its like I said Comrade... photography and a matter of choosing which picture to use to support your claim.

I entered into this with an open mind, I could have actually been swayed to Daniel's side had the argument had any merit. I looked at all the evidence and there is just nothing there but smoke while someone is screaming fire.

:spank3: :huh:

(where the hell is that smiley with the head banging off the brick wall when ya need it?)

 

[Comrade]

You guys will think I'm off my rocker, but I've always suspected that Flight 93 was shot down, and all subsequent details, commisions and investigations have used the passengers forcing the plane down to make everyone feel better.
I can't prove it and am not an authority on it, just my gut feeling.

Block box recording found here:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/flight93-air-traffic.htm

Not the whole part... which is probably not a conspiracy, given the last minutes were described but played only to the 9-11 families who lost their loved ones on the flight.

You have to ask, though... if what is described is A LIE, those who were allowed to listen have not spoken out against what seems to be the undisputed truth. I believe they would certainly have done so, if it was truly a coverup.

 

[lilcountriegal]

All the wackiness I've waded through usually claims that the flights never existed in the first place........no planes, no passengers, nada. Just some old cargo planes painted to match commercial airliners flown by remote control.

Can you link me there or at least tell me where they say the people on those flights went? Are they saying there was no Senator's wife? or no Mark Bingham? Mark's widow, is she an actress?

This just gets more bizzare by the minute... you'd think they'd have put something together that sounded a bit better than this rubbish.

 

[JIHADTHIS]

Can you link me there or at least tell me where they say the people on those flights went? Are they saying there was no Senator's wife? or no Mark Bingham? Mark's widow, is she an actress?

This just gets more bizzare by the minute... you'd think they'd have put something together that sounded a bit better than this rubbish.

Heres one for you:
http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm

 

[Merlin1047]

However, carefully look at it, you will see that there is no plane in that footage, none at all, just a vapor trail. I never knew that 757's left vapor trails like that, but i do know that missiles leave a similar trail, as well as the global hawk.

Vapor trails or condensation trails (contrails) occur when ANY powered aircraft operates at the temperature, humidity and pressure combination which cause the engine exhaust to condense into a cloud.

Particulate matter ejected by the engine exhaust serves as condesation nuclei. If the aircraft is operating at an an altitude which yields a temperature/dewpoint spread of two degrees or less, then contrails result.
Contrails are composed of water vapor in the form of ice crystals combined with a small amount of residue from burned fuel. The only aircraft which is not capable of generating a contrail is a glider.

Contrails spread out only slightly and evaporate within 10 seconds to an hour, depending on the upper air humidity and temperature and turbulence. It is not at all unusual to see contrails long after the aircraft that generated them is no longer visible.

Sorry to poke another hole in your balloon. Science isn't nearly as much fun as manufactured conspiracy theories, now is it?

Oh, and the Global Hawk is an unmanned reconnaisance drone. Not a missile.

 

[Comrade]

Its like I said Comrade... photography and a matter of choosing which picture to use to support your claim.

I entered into this with an open mind, I could have actually been swayed to Daniel's side had the argument had any merit. I looked at all the evidence and there is just nothing there but smoke while someone is screaming fire.

:spank3: :huh:

(where the hell is that smiley with the head banging off the brick wall when ya need it?)

Go to my link... scroll down about half way... examine airplane debris on lawn.