The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[Jazmine]

Can I just post these stats:

28 Episcopalians,
8 Presbyterians,
7 Congregationalists,
2 Lutherans,
2 Dutch Reformed,
2 Methodists,
2 Roman Catholics,
1 unknown
3 deists--Williamson, Wilson and Franklin

So, 93% Christian

[John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), p. 43.]

And most were Calvinist, which explains the "checks and balances" an outgrowth of the Calvinistic view of the pervasive depravity on man. In England the Revolutionary War was called the "The Presbyterian Rebellion".

 

[Foxfyre]

Can I just post these stats:

28 Episcopalians,
8 Presbyterians,
7 Congregationalists,
2 Lutherans,
2 Dutch Reformed,
2 Methodists,
2 Roman Catholics,
1 unknown
3 deists--Williamson, Wilson and Franklin

So, 93% Christian

[John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), p. 43.]

And most were Calvinist, which explains the "checks and balances" an outgrowth of the Calvinistic view of the pervasive depravity on man. In England the Revolutionary War was called the "The Presbyterian Rebellion".

Martin Luther would turn over in his grave to have Lutherans referred to as "Calvinist". There was no love lost between him and his contempoary, John Calvin. So only the Presbyterians, the Congregationalists, and possibly the Dutch Reformed--I honestly can't remember--would be Calvinist. Likely the British did toss the Lutherans into that same camp based on the Lutheran doctrine of predestination though, so that would bring the count up to a little less than half. The Episcopalians (Anglicans), Methodists, and Roman Catholics were not Calvinists.

But you are right that it was mostly the Presbyterians who pushed for a rebellion against England. Some say if it were not for the fierce fighting Calvinists the Revolutionary War would not have been won by us.

I don't see much Calvinism or any particular Christian doctrine written into the Declaration or Constitution though. The Founders did a good job with that.

 

[bodecea]

How sad your stance is so stupid you won't state it.

Again, you choose to call me rude names when ALL I say is that Actions Speak Louder Than Words. Why does that scare you so?

Actions do speak louder than words. That's how we all know you're a filthy, disgusting, lying troll no matter how much you deny it. Your actions prove it.

Sorry, but when you speak from your closet, Connie, everything comes out muffled....did you say something?

 

[bodecea]

Can I just post these stats:

28 Episcopalians,
8 Presbyterians,
7 Congregationalists,
2 Lutherans,
2 Dutch Reformed,
2 Methodists,
2 Roman Catholics,
1 unknown
3 deists--Williamson, Wilson and Franklin

So, 93% Christian

[John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), p. 43.]

And most were Calvinist, which explains the "checks and balances" an outgrowth of the Calvinistic view of the pervasive depravity on man. In England the Revolutionary War was called the "The Presbyterian Rebellion".

Martin Luther would turn over in his grave to have Lutherans referred to as "Calvinist". There was no love lost between him and his contempoary, John Calvin. So only the Presbyterians, the Congregationalists, and possibly the Dutch Reformed--I honestly can't remember--would be Calvinist. Likely the British did toss the Lutherans into that same camp based on the Lutheran doctrine of predestination though, so that would bring the count up to a little less than half. The Episcopalians (Anglicans), Methodists, and Roman Catholics were not Calvinists.

But you are right that it was mostly the Presbyterians who pushed for a rebellion against England. Some say if it were not for the fierce fighting Calvinists the Revolutionary War would not have been won by us.

I don't see much Calvinism or any particular Christian doctrine written into the Declaration or Constitution though. The Founders did a good job with that.

And, of course, their Actions speak even Louder than any Words they would have Written.

Even the most famous words..."All men are created equal..." What were their actions in comparison to that?

 

[Jazmine]

Martin Luther would turn over in his grave to have Lutherans referred to as "Calvinist". There was no love lost between him and his contempoary, John Calvin. So only the Presbyterians, the Congregationalists, and possibly the Dutch Reformed--I honestly can't remember--would be Calvinist. Likely the British did toss the Lutherans into that same camp based on the Lutheran doctrine of predestination though, so that would bring the count up to a little less than half. The Episcopalians (Anglicans), Methodists, and Roman Catholics were not Calvinists.

But you are right that it was mostly the Presbyterians who pushed for a rebellion against England. Some say if it were not for the fierce fighting Calvinists the Revolutionary War would not have been won by us.

I don't see much Calvinism or any particular Christian doctrine written into the Declaration or Constitution though. The Founders did a good job with that.

The Episcopalians were largely Calvinists at that time too. Since then they have changed.

 

[AllieBaba]

How sad your stance is so stupid you won't state it.

Again, you choose to call me rude names when ALL I say is that Actions Speak Louder Than Words. Why does that scare you so?

That doesn't scare me. It just has nothing to do with the topic, and yet you pretend it does. Try to confine yourself to the topic, dear.

Of course you can't. Which is why you continue to spout irrelevancies and weird opinion as though they mean something.

 

[AllieBaba]

Can I just post these stats:

28 Episcopalians,
8 Presbyterians,
7 Congregationalists,
2 Lutherans,
2 Dutch Reformed,
2 Methodists,
2 Roman Catholics,
1 unknown
3 deists--Williamson, Wilson and Franklin

So, 93% Christian

[John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), p. 43.]

And most were Calvinist, which explains the "checks and balances" an outgrowth of the Calvinistic view of the pervasive depravity on man. In England the Revolutionary War was called the "The Presbyterian Rebellion".

Martin Luther would turn over in his grave to have Lutherans referred to as "Calvinist". There was no love lost between him and his contempoary, John Calvin. So only the Presbyterians, the Congregationalists, and possibly the Dutch Reformed--I honestly can't remember--would be Calvinist. Likely the British did toss the Lutherans into that same camp based on the Lutheran doctrine of predestination though, so that would bring the count up to a little less than half. The Episcopalians (Anglicans), Methodists, and Roman Catholics were not Calvinists.

But you are right that it was mostly the Presbyterians who pushed for a rebellion against England. Some say if it were not for the fierce fighting Calvinists the Revolutionary War would not have been won by us.

I don't see much Calvinism or any particular Christian doctrine written into the Declaration or Constitution though. The Founders did a good job with that.

And, of course, their Actions speak even Louder than any Words they would have Written.

Even the most famous words..."All men are created equal..." What were their actions in comparison to that?

Their actions were pretty impressive. I'd love to line up your accomplishments next to theirs.

 

[Dot Com]

For the millionth time:

The founding fathers stated, repeatedly, that they were founding a country upon Christian principle. If you want to argue against that then you must prove that they were intentionally misleading everybody in their circles, and you must find a way to discredit the Declaration of Independence and deny it is a founding document.

I love you like a sister ;-) BUT where R U getting that info? Look at my above post. There's a diff between the 'Founders/initial settlers' and the 'Framers'. Also, the Declaration of Independence is intentionally non-sectarian. See- "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them". Have you ever heard of a "Deist"?
Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For purposes of clarification, the Framers of the Constitution have been referred to as the Founding Fathers for more than two hundred years now. When I or any of our members uses the term "Founders" we are referring to those men who signed onto the Declaration of Independence, saw the country through a five-year bloody war with England in order to gain our freedom, and then spent the next seven years hammering out a Constitution that would make us the most free, most prosperous, most innovative, most productive nation that world had ever known.

Founders in the context of this thread is an abbreviation of "Founding Fathers" and means those men of the Declaration and Constitution and not the first settlers who were British citizens and not yet Americans.

Atheists have long tried to make a case that Christian influence was not that much a factor in the founding of this nation by pointing to the Founders who were Deists. The writings we have of those amazing men, however, simply don't reflect any point of view other than a Christian one:

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."--George Washington
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."--John Adams
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever. . . .--Thomas Jefferson
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."--John Hancock
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;. . . .

--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."--John Monroe
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.


"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time.
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248


"The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

There are lots and lots and lots more.

Such as these:

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. *
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man
~T. Jefferson
*
This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it
~John Adams
*
Lighthouses are more useful than churches
~B. Franklin

I have @ 50 more if you'd like to see them

 

[Dot Com]

Irrelevant.

Do you know what was unusual about Thomas Jefferson's personal Bible? The guy who drafted and wrote the Declaration of Independence? I'm going to have to start charging you for giving you these mini-classes

Yes, he removed the portions which contained supernatural events, from the New Testament anyway.

All that tells us is that he didn't believe in those portions of the Bible. He certainly believed in the principles that Christ taught though, and he certainly advocated basing our legal system off the existing Judeo/Christian system, otherwise known as English Common Law.

Funny you should mention that. Sorry :

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. *
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

 

[Dot Com]

Irrelevant.

Do you know what was unusual about Thomas Jefferson's personal Bible? The guy who drafted and wrote the Declaration of Independence? I'm going to have to start charging you for giving you these mini-classes

His personal beliefs have nothing to do with anything. The irrefutable fact of the matter is that the founding fathers, including Jefferson, said repeatedly they were founding a country upon Christian principle.

There's no argument. Whether he was Deist, or Christian, or Buddhist has no bearing upon this particular argument.

Him being the AUTHOR of the Declaration has no bearing? Gotcha' ;-)

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

 

[TheBrain]

Again, you choose to call me rude names when ALL I say is that Actions Speak Louder Than Words. Why does that scare you so?

Actions do speak louder than words. That's how we all know you're a filthy, disgusting, lying troll no matter how much you deny it. Your actions prove it.

Sorry, but when you speak from your closet, Connie, everything comes out muffled....did you say something?

What is the deal with a homosexual using homosexuality as a slur towards other posters?

By the way, I'm not in the least big homosexual, or confused about my sexuality so you're attempted slur has no effect here.

 

[bodecea]

Actions do speak louder than words. That's how we all know you're a filthy, disgusting, lying troll no matter how much you deny it. Your actions prove it.

Sorry, but when you speak from your closet, Connie, everything comes out muffled....did you say something?

What is the deal with a homosexual using homosexuality as a slur towards other posters?

By the way, I'm not in the least big homosexual, or confused about my sexuality so you're attempted slur has no effect here.

Who said anything about homosexuality? You are in the closet as to who you really are, Connie. You're coming in very muffled....hard to hear you thru that sock puppet and all.

 

[Jazmine]

Could ask, why does it matter so much that the U.S. not be founded upon Christianity?

What would it change if we all decided that the U.S. is not founded on Christianity? The first amendment is still the first amendment.

 

[AllieBaba]

Oh it's just the same old argument about revisionist history. Liars and anti-Christian, anti-American pieces of shit like Bod & DrSmith get off by creating a history based on their own ignorant life view, and they live in a world where they think their skewed perception has validity in the real world. Of course they are wrong. The problem is..they present their fantasy as fact. Hence the eternathread.

 

[bodecea]

Martin Luther would turn over in his grave to have Lutherans referred to as "Calvinist". There was no love lost between him and his contempoary, John Calvin. So only the Presbyterians, the Congregationalists, and possibly the Dutch Reformed--I honestly can't remember--would be Calvinist. Likely the British did toss the Lutherans into that same camp based on the Lutheran doctrine of predestination though, so that would bring the count up to a little less than half. The Episcopalians (Anglicans), Methodists, and Roman Catholics were not Calvinists.

But you are right that it was mostly the Presbyterians who pushed for a rebellion against England. Some say if it were not for the fierce fighting Calvinists the Revolutionary War would not have been won by us.

I don't see much Calvinism or any particular Christian doctrine written into the Declaration or Constitution though. The Founders did a good job with that.

And, of course, their Actions speak even Louder than any Words they would have Written.

Even the most famous words..."All men are created equal..." What were their actions in comparison to that?

Their actions were pretty impressive. I'd love to line up your accomplishments next to theirs.

You bet their actions were impressive. But since you bring it up...how would YOUR accomplishments match up to theirs, Allie? Do your Actions speak louder than YOUR words too?

 

[AllieBaba]

I'm not taking the position that their actions *speak louder than words*, i.e., aren't Christian. That's all you. So prove your weird point...though of course that has nothing to do with the argument that the US was founded upon Christian principle.

But knock yourself out, fruitcake.

 

[bodecea]

I'm not taking the position that their actions *speak louder than words*, i.e., aren't Christian. That's all you. So prove your weird point...though of course that has nothing to do with the argument that the US was founded upon Christian principle.

But knock yourself out, fruitcake.

I take the position that their actions speak louder than words....you CHOOSE to add the thought "i.e. aren't Christian". That's all on you and your personal interpretation.

But you want me to prove that "actions speak louder than words" now? And you think that's a weird point?

 

[JScott]

I'm not taking the position that their actions *speak louder than words*, i.e., aren't Christian. That's all you. So prove your weird point...though of course that has nothing to do with the argument that the US was founded upon Christian principle.

But knock yourself out, fruitcake.

I take the position that their actions speak louder than words....you CHOOSE to add the thought "i.e. aren't Christian". That's all on you and your personal interpretation.

But you want me to prove that "actions speak louder than words" now? And you think that's a weird point?

Sorry I cant give you more rep Bodecea.....

 

[AllieBaba]

I'm not taking the position that their actions *speak louder than words*, i.e., aren't Christian. That's all you. So prove your weird point...though of course that has nothing to do with the argument that the US was founded upon Christian principle.

But knock yourself out, fruitcake.

I take the position that their actions speak louder than words....you CHOOSE to add the thought "i.e. aren't Christian". That's all on you and your personal interpretation.

But you want me to prove that "actions speak louder than words" now? And you think that's a weird point?

No, I don't want you to prove that actions speak louder than words. As I said, it's an irrelevant point, meant to deflect from the actual discussion and argument, and meant to divert attention from the fact that you made the claim that America wasn't founded upon Christian principle, and your best argument is that "actions speak louder than words".

If you just want to talk about "actions speak louder than words", which is juvenile and silly, you should make another thread about that. Otherwise, I will continue to assume it's a lame-ass attempt to muddy the waters....triggered by the fact that your grasp of history is as feeble as your grasp of the English language.

 

[bodecea]

I'm not taking the position that their actions *speak louder than words*, i.e., aren't Christian. That's all you. So prove your weird point...though of course that has nothing to do with the argument that the US was founded upon Christian principle.

But knock yourself out, fruitcake.

I take the position that their actions speak louder than words....you CHOOSE to add the thought "i.e. aren't Christian". That's all on you and your personal interpretation.

But you want me to prove that "actions speak louder than words" now? And you think that's a weird point?

Sorry I cant give you more rep Bodecea.....

S'kay.