The Truth about Mormons

[Eightball]

Mel Ballard is a good dude. And you should apply his teachings in your life. Give up whackos like Glenn Beck. Turn away from JBS leanings. Go lean on the Lord. Best of luck, Avatar. I am glad you are 'coming out' in public.

If you are considering Glenn Beck a wacko, is it his religious doctrine or his Constitutional/Libertarian/Conservative background, or both?

I find Glenn Beck very refreshing, and right on top of all that's going wacko with our present administration.

As for Beck's Mormon beliefs, I'm able to separate people from their religious persuasion, and appreciate or not their political/ethical doctrine.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Mel Ballard is a good dude. And you should apply his teachings in your life. Give up whackos like Glenn Beck. Turn away from JBS leanings. Go lean on the Lord. Best of luck, Avatar. I am glad you are 'coming out' in public.

If you are considering Glenn Beck a wacko, is it his religious doctrine or his Constitutional/Libertarian/Conservative background, or both?

I find Glenn Beck very refreshing, and right on top of all that's going wacko with our present administration.

As for Beck's Mormon beliefs, I'm able to separate people from their religious persuasion, and appreciate or not their political/ethical doctrine.

I like LDS folks fairly well having been around them all my life, here in (deleted) as well as out west. What I don't like is Glenn's hidden "elders of Zion saving the Constitution" LDS belief tied to the nuttery of the John Birch Society, the Freeman Institute, and the ravings of Cleon Skousen. You can Avatar about all that.

Glenn's approach is held by a very, very small minority of LDS and considered to be a major step on the road to apostasy by the LDS church's leadership.*

*To small minority of LDS whackos on this principle -- go contact your Stake President and find out what happens to your standing in your church.

 

[Avatar4321]

I like LDS folks fairly well having been around them all my life, here in (deleted) as well as out west. What I don't like is Glenn's hidden "elders of Zion saving the Constitution" LDS belief tied to the nuttery of the John Birch Society, the Freeman Institute, and the ravings of Cleon Skousen. You can Avatar about all that.

Glenn's approach is held by a very, very small minority of LDS and considered to be a major step on the road to apostasy by the LDS church's leadership.*

*To small minority of LDS whackos on this principle -- go contact your Stake President and find out what happens to your standing in your church.

Your conspiracy theories are getting a bit psycho. might want to tone them down a bit.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I like LDS folks fairly well having been around them all my life, here in (deleted) as well as out west. What I don't like is Glenn's hidden "elders of Zion saving the Constitution" LDS belief tied to the nuttery of the John Birch Society, the Freeman Institute, and the ravings of Cleon Skousen. You can Avatar about all that.

Glenn's approach is held by a very, very small minority of LDS and considered to be a major step on the road to apostasy by the LDS church's leadership.*

*To small minority of LDS whackos on this principle -- go contact your Stake President and find out what happens to your standing in your church.

Your conspiracy theories are getting a bit psycho. might want to tone them down a bit.

Truth is the truth, Avatar. You are in a very small, very nutty political minority in the LDS church. Your leadership states those beliefs are the first step to apostasy. You better tone down your nonsense before they catch on to you.

 

[THE LIGHT]

Do Mormons believe that Jesus "IS," "has been" and always will be GOD and that belief in him is the ONLY way to eternal life?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Do Mormons believe that Jesus "IS," "has been" and always will be GOD and that belief in him is the ONLY way to eternal life?

Go to lds.org for the LDS statements about Jesus Christ.

I understand that they do not accept the traditional, historical, or evangelical doctrinal teachings of Jesus from the times of the early fathers and doctors of the church through the Protestant reformation through the 2d Great Awakening in the U.S of the early 19th century.

That is why, in my opinion, LDS conversions in the US are slowing down and Catholic America continue to accelerate.

 

[Rubber Hoser]

Folks just don't get it do they av and tru. Mormons are the only ones who are right and the rest of you are wrong and possibly all going to hell. 2,000,000 mormons are right and the other 6,500,000,000 of humanity is wrong. So folks, get with the plan if you want to be saved: magic underwear, golden plates, illiterate cowboys, polygamy and all the rest. It's all good!
I want to be a god, so should you.

 

[Avatar4321]

Do Mormons believe that Jesus "IS," "has been" and always will be GOD and that belief in him is the ONLY way to eternal life?

yes. Feel free to read the Book of Mormon and find out for yourself.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Do Mormons believe that Jesus "IS," "has been" and always will be GOD and that belief in him is the ONLY way to eternal life?

yes. Feel free to read the Book of Mormon and find out for yourself.

I am glad that you have come out of the closet, Avatar.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Todd's book is in your stake library, probably, and if not, certainly in the local library. The reading list you have is milk for the beginner, absolutely necessary, but only the milk. Challenge yourself to grow, for the glory of God is to bring forth the development of man. Go for it.

Trust me, the list I have just named is anything but milk. I would be extremely surprised if you have read a single page of any of those books. I challenge you to read them and you will find these other journal entry-type books to be anything but expository

 

[Truthspeaker]

Then I did read you wrong, and I apologize. You are going to use the eternal progression route for becoming gods. Better go back and read B. McConkie; his views depart radically from yours. And, if you have the time, once upon a time a guy by the name of Hartman Rector, a convert who became a Seventy when only one general quorum of them existed at general authority level, preached exactly what I think you believe. McConkie, who I think was in the Seventy with him at the time, diagreed with him big time. So did McConkie's boss, Joseph Fielding Smith.

You think I know a bit about Mormonism? You need to meet Jeff Needle of San Diego, the Jewish book editor of the Association of Mormon Letters online. I have never met a better read individual on Mormonism than him, and that goes for Leonard Arrington or Mike Quinn or Louis Midgley. Needle is a funy, funny guy.

No I don't think you do know much about Mormonism at all. You think you do but you are only getting the spoonfed anti-mormon version of it.

What Bruce R. McKonkie was speaking about in "Mormon Doctrine" is the same thing we believe in today. You also aren't taking the proper context of my statements in answering 3rd party inquiring minds on this thread. As to becoming a god. xsited was asking me if we just instantly become gods at the ressurection. There is so much more to it than that though.
So assuming you can handle stronger meat, I will explain. The resurrection date of each individual is not the same. yes there is 1 great big resurrection day prior to the millenial reign following Jesus' second coming. But there will be and have been many people resurrected at earlier times. Since we believe in eternal progression it has also been revealed in the doctrine and covenants that some of our progenitors have already become gods since they have been working at it for many millenia i.e. Adam.

Our turns will come if we meet the criteria. And let there be no mistake. XSITED was asking if we(mormons) become gods when we die and are resurrected. That is why I said no, we don't become gods at the snap of a finger and no because it's not decided who will receive exaltation based on what church you belong to. The criteria for becoming a god involves being pure in heart and willing to obey Gods commandments long after this life is over. It's not just Mormons.

do you comprehend the complex nature of my answer? I assume you do. This is not pontificating. This is logical reasoning. There IS no dogma in our church because dogma by nature is not to be questioned and we invite more scrutiny and questioning of our doctrine than any other religion. Therefore by definition we have no dogmas.

Ah, neophyte, you have stumbled several times already, but that's OK because you are trying to move forward with a willing heart if an unsteady stride. I will show you how to lengthen your stride. I notice your unorthodox understanding of grace and election informs your theory of god development.

You are wise to stay away from dogma because Joseph Smith, John Taylor, Brigham Young, and Joseph F. Smith abounded in it. It's hard to explain doctrines of the time such as "Adam-God", "Blood Atonement", "Adoption," "Royal Abrahamic Priesthood", and the denial of Priestood Blessings to the Nego. What find funny is that General Authorities today pretend as they as dave authority to say that what Brigham Young gave doctrine really wasn't doctrine. If Elder Packer had made such a statement back then, Brigham Young would sent him to supervise the water in the Green River. You will learn.

Thanks for calling me wise. Anywhoo

You say I stumble but without any explanation of how I have stumbled. I have already dealt with all those questions multiple times. I suggest you go back and read my responses say....ohh...about 30 pages ago and prior. How can you say our first leaders were abounding in dogma when they constantly told all of their congregations to pray and ASK God if the doctrines were true.

I've been through the definition of dogma already. It requires that people not question it to be dogma. Therefore we have never had dogmas. You have no idea how much early leaders and current leaders are on the same page.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Truthspeaker: Your so full of it! Jake or anyone can see that my posts have challenged you to the core of your anti-biblical doctrine, and a "thanks" to Jake is the same as saying, "Job well done.".

Your shooting out barbs like a drowning man without a life jacket.

You compliment Avatar, and Avatar compliments you, but when I do it, it's hiding behind the big old bully's.

Your just plain full of it, and making yourself look pretty lame, as a Mormon spokesman.

Jake has presented you with a fist-full of facts, yes facts for you to chew on, digest, and reply back with some rational, objective summations.

I've brought up a fistfull of facts that reveal some real problems with your belief system, and you've blown me off, with, "I answered that 8-ball!". Bull, to that. What you have done is used poor hermenutics of the bible as Avatar does, pick and pulling references out of context to support your anti-Christ/biblical religion. You both have been called on the "'carpet" for using "induction" methodology when citing the bible.

You ignore all historical data that isn't sanctioned by your church.......Basically, your fullfilling all the criteria of a cultist or cult member. You "must" stay in lock-step with the faith, based on a less than shakey foundation.

Saying I'm hiding behind anyone, just exposed you for what you are. A very uninformed, Mormon, who isn't willing to look beyond his church's official statements, and will brush aside his church's statements of the past when they become inconvenient to your present comfort zone or paradigm.

Your founder was a con man...........fully revealed in New York, and he created more friction with biblical Christian communitys as he led his followers West to Utah. He was willing to make up visions and all kinds of weird phenomena to keep absolute control over his minions/followers. Sadly, these folks were gullible, and that's just how cults prosper; with folks that want God to be their way, and not the way God has truly revealed Himself to man.

The "flesh" wars against the "Spirit". The flesh desires polygamous relationships, it wars against that which reveals sinful nature of fallen man..........
__________________

Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on all of the points you just made. Again. There isn't one single original statement in that entire post. Yes I have heard it before. Yes I have heard it. And yes I have answered all those points.

This is the point where I usually retort with "Which question(one at a time please) did I not address already?"

Whereupon you will never bring up the question. Amazing

 

[Rubber Hoser]

Tru, why don't you just give up? Nobody wants to join your cult. I admit it must be frustrating to explain yourself over and over and get ridiculed non stop. Maybe you should've joined a less nutty cult.
i bet you ask yourself from time to time: why do I believe in such bogusness?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Eightball, all of that is true.

Actually most of it isn't as I have shown that through this thread which you haven't read. Which said thread you claim to know so much about

However, the LDS church today is not the LDS church of 1850.

Oh it is my poor dear starkey. If you only would learn knowledge instead of heresay.

Give grace here, I suggest. Remember that Paul had to struggle mightily with the sexual religious expressions of the Gentiles (Ashtaroth, etc) in bringing them into Christianity.

Yes patience with us poor lost Mormons. God knows I've been patient enough with the likes of you. Patience is one of the fruits of the Spirit you know(Galatians 5:21)

And, my of my, Christianity today is not that of Paul and his buddies, for sure.

You finally spoke something that is right on the money. How do you feel about following a version of Christianity that Jesus and the Apostles never sanctioned? By your own admission you follow a religion different from Jesus.

This is the very reason Joseph Smith and everyone else decides to join our church. At least we CLAIM to have the original church. No one else even does. So what leg do YOU stand on if you don't even claim to have ORIGINAL authority from God?

So, yeah, Truthspeaker is fairly ignorant of his religion

Oh because I haven't read a book about the wives of Joseph Smith. That's rich!
You still can't prove you have read even that book, let alone the list of verifiable historical documents I listed earlier. Good thinkin!

and Avatar is a whacko political Bircher who hides behind Mormonism. Yet I am not willing to judge the state of their souls, and I am sure you are not either. At least I hope not. I do wish they would play fair with the history and facts of their denomination. Remember it is only one of several hundred Mormon denominations.

Why thank you for your benevolence in not judging us

Your boy 8-ball has repeatedly condemned us to hell so don't be so sure about him. I wish you would play fair by actually reading books and proving it instead of getting ALL the information you think you know from anti-mormon sources.

This is now the 1000th official repeat of the question"Which historical facts/questions have I missed on this thread?"

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!! YOU ARE NOW THE WINNER OF A FREE BOOK OF MORMON!

Just let me know your address and I'll ship one to you right away

Or call toll free 1800 NO BIAS!

 

[Truthspeaker]

TS, if you get a chance to check out Elder Ballards commencement speech for the BYU graduates this summer. Good talk.

As for the accusers, I am who I am. Nothing less. Nothing more. I dont really care whether you believe me.

I think you are talking about the speech he gave in 07 to the byu hawaii grads. Is that the same one? If not where can I find it?

 

[Truthspeaker]

As a casual observer, I must say that starkey and 8 ball have buried truthboy and avatar. But your all just arguing over something that was written by men. So you all look a little foolish.
And arguing over a word "mormon" is a dumb as those who argue over another word "marriage" (for gays).

Ok Hoser
Thanks for your very casual observations. Talk about looking foolish! All you did is try to be sarcastic and insulting about our religion from the get-go.
Whatever dude, happy trails!

 

[JakeStarkey]

No I don't think you do know much about Mormonism at all. You think you do but you are only getting the spoonfed anti-mormon version of it.

What Bruce R. McKonkie was speaking about in "Mormon Doctrine" is the same thing we believe in today. You also aren't taking the proper context of my statements in answering 3rd party inquiring minds on this thread. As to becoming a god. xsited was asking me if we just instantly become gods at the ressurection. There is so much more to it than that though.
So assuming you can handle stronger meat, I will explain. The resurrection date of each individual is not the same. yes there is 1 great big resurrection day prior to the millenial reign following Jesus' second coming. But there will be and have been many people resurrected at earlier times. Since we believe in eternal progression it has also been revealed in the doctrine and covenants that some of our progenitors have already become gods since they have been working at it for many millenia i.e. Adam.

Our turns will come if we meet the criteria. And let there be no mistake. XSITED was asking if we(mormons) become gods when we die and are resurrected. That is why I said no, we don't become gods at the snap of a finger and no because it's not decided who will receive exaltation based on what church you belong to. The criteria for becoming a god involves being pure in heart and willing to obey Gods commandments long after this life is over. It's not just Mormons.

do you comprehend the complex nature of my answer? I assume you do. This is not pontificating. This is logical reasoning. There IS no dogma in our church because dogma by nature is not to be questioned and we invite more scrutiny and questioning of our doctrine than any other religion. Therefore by definition we have no dogmas.

Ah, neophyte, you have stumbled several times already, but that's OK because you are trying to move forward with a willing heart if an unsteady stride. I will show you how to lengthen your stride. I notice your unorthodox understanding of grace and election informs your theory of god development.

You are wise to stay away from dogma because Joseph Smith, John Taylor, Brigham Young, and Joseph F. Smith abounded in it. It's hard to explain doctrines of the time such as "Adam-God", "Blood Atonement", "Adoption," "Royal Abrahamic Priesthood", and the denial of Priestood Blessings to the Nego. What find funny is that General Authorities today pretend as they as dave authority to say that what Brigham Young gave doctrine really wasn't doctrine. If Elder Packer had made such a statement back then, Brigham Young would sent him to supervise the water in the Green River. You will learn.

Thanks for calling me wise. Anywhoo

You say I stumble but without any explanation of how I have stumbled. I have already dealt with all those questions multiple times. I suggest you go back and read my responses say....ohh...about 30 pages ago and prior. How can you say our first leaders were abounding in dogma when they constantly told all of their congregations to pray and ASK God if the doctrines were true.

I've been through the definition of dogma already. It requires that people not question it to be dogma. Therefore we have never had dogmas. You have no idea how much early leaders and current leaders are on the same page.

You have a good spirit, and I like that. Yes, Mormonism is filled with dogmas (you misdefine the term but that's OK), and your denial is simply our opinion, and who cares. But you are going to learn quite a bit. Do your leaders ask you to pray for conviction on what is taught now? I suspect so.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Joe: There are "true" Christians involved in belief systems that are way off base. When I say, "True" I mean those that Jesus defines as "born from above" as He told the pharisee Nicodemus.

Please define your vague use of the term "born from above".

In fact what you are trying to quote is from John chapter 3 verse 5 where Jesus is telling Nicodemus "Except a man be born of WATER and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." This is a clear commandment of baptism by water, which is a symbol of being born again. Please. No more misquotes.
You may understand a scripture differently than I but please don't insert words like "from above" which don't exist.

Romans Chapter 12 comes to mind as Paul's great "equalizer" or means of filtering out what is right and what is wrong.

I just read Romans 12 again while reading through I could not find which verse in that whole chapter refers to what you are talking about. Please confirm.

Also, Romans 10:17 couldn't be clearer, as I've posted that verse in reply to our two resident Mormon apologists here on this thread so many times I can't count.

I've also as many times explained that our view is the same about romans 10:17. We do believe that if you confess with your lips you will be saved to a certain degree of glory. But since the VERY SAME BIBLE you quote says that "faith without works is dead", and "they which DO such things(murders, lying, etc,) shall not inherit the kingdom of god." Galatians chapter 5. There are plenty of people who have confessed the Christ, only to turn and murder or lie etc.

So either the bible CONTRADICTS itself or God wants us to know there is a balance between faith and works.

But I'm still not condemning your view. You are entitled to your view of the Bible and me to mine. That's not the point of my thread. Again.

Faith is placing trust in an objective reality.

Malarkey! Faith is believing in something you HAVEN'T SEEN or cannot prove by scientific factual means. Read the dictionary Mirriam-Webster:
firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust

Stop trying to REDIFINE everything.

The bible has revealed the objective reality of Christ's birth, existence, ministry, which culminated in His crucifixion, burial, ressurrection, and ascension into heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father.

Oh Jeez, If only an Atheist could hear you talk! Where are the FACTS? We only know that he existed through word of mouth. There is none of his dna left. No one has located the birthplace except that it was by word of mouth somewhere in Bethlehem. word of mouth states he was crucified. Legend has it that the Garden tomb in Israel is his original burial place, but no scientific evidence. Resurrection? Please. Ascension to heaven? all word of mouth.

There is nothing objective about the story of Christ in the Bible. It's all word of mouth. written down in lots of sources, some of which are in the bible. all of which I believe but there is no objective scientific facts.
Your claims are ridiculous.

I realize to harangue folks of a different belief system with evidences of the shakiness of their founding fathers, and their deeds, will only go so far.

Your use of the word harangue is weird. The definition is to publicly address or rant. so is that all you are trying to do is rant? I told you you would be wasting your time.

It takes a brave, bold, yet scarey "step" for a Mormon or folks involved in unbiblical religions to take a "stab" at considering that they may be following the wrong piper.

Oh I've considered it. A long time ago. I realized it made sense for me and since then I've been solid in my faith. How about You?

Again, I must stress, that Christians indeed can be involved in Mormonism/LDS, "if" they are "ignorant" of the main tenents of the bible; namely N.T. teachings.

I don't care if you think I'm not christian by your re-definition of christian. I know I am so whatever.

I admire the Bereans for challenging even Paul the Apostle and going straight to their scriptures to "test" what He taught them. Paul was not insulted, but actually commended the Bereans for checking out his teaching to make sure he/Paul wasn't bringing a false message.

*******

Truly I am like the Bereans. And Paul at the same time!

Going to church doesn't mean a person is trully a Christian, nor does attending a very solid bible teaching church.

True

God works in mysterious ways, yet He is indeed consistent, for who He is, as He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

True dat. All the way

 

[Truthspeaker]

The Truth about Mormons
are the lies from mormans

which lie? substance please?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Mel Ballard is a good dude. And you should apply his teachings in your life. Give up whackos like Glenn Beck. Turn away from JBS leanings. Go lean on the Lord. Best of luck, Avatar. I am glad you are 'coming out' in public.

If you are considering Glenn Beck a wacko, is it his religious doctrine or his Constitutional/Libertarian/Conservative background, or both?

I find Glenn Beck very refreshing, and right on top of all that's going wacko with our present administration.

As for Beck's Mormon beliefs, I'm able to separate people from their religious persuasion, and appreciate or not their political/ethical doctrine.

good for you that you can separate the two. Not many can. Ya know, if we talk about politics, you and I would probably agree more. But religious discussions with you and I don't really mix.