The Status of Jeruselum and double standards

[Coyote]

They control sites integral to two other major and volatile world religions.

To be clear, in 2002 it was estimated that Islam had 1.6 billion adherents. Judaism on the other hand had about 14 million, just behind Spiritism with 15 million and Sikhism with more than double that at 30 million. They do however, have twice as many adherents as Bahá'í with 7.0 million.

How is that relevant? Numbers increase rights or something?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Here is what has been happening in East Jerusalem in regards to rights.

Israeli courts has upheld a 63 year old controversial absentee landowner law that allows for the confiscation of Arab-owned properties in East Jerusalem. The courts specified it was legal but should be used rarely. The "rarely" part seems to be abused. According to this article, "the court said the state may confiscate East Jerusalem property held by West Bank residents".

Jewish settlers, such as the rightwing Elad Corporation have been moving into the traditionally Arab sectors of Jerusalem benefiting from these absentee confiscations as well as buying up property under false pretenses.

The absentee landowner laws forced Palestinians to sell because they were not allowed to return.

Other means of purchasing and "occupying" property are also questionable, for example:

Sudden apartment takeovers in east Jerusalem spark anger

Jewish real estate deals in the contentious Silwan area have long been murky. Purchases often go through intermediaries, which those involved says protects the Arab sellers from being attacked by their neighbors. In some cases, Arabs who say they are the rightful homeowners take Elad to court, arguing the properties were sold by imposters posing as homeowners.

Residents move in at night while Arab neighbors are asleep. The Israeli government bankrolls armed security guards to protect the Jewish residences, many of which are equipped with blooming geranium bushes, Israeli flags and security cameras.


Elad long has attracted controversy because of its nationalistic agenda. But Elad says the area is central to Jewish heritage, and investment in the area has benefited Arab and Jewish residents alike.


“We would like to see a majority of Jews living in this area,” Spielman said. “Having said that, we respect our Arab neighbors.”


About 500 Jews live in the area, and the newly purchased homes will allow for 200 more, Spielman said.


Until residents move in, the properties are occupied by police officers, private security guards, and young volunteers packing pistols. An ad on a Facebook page for religious Jewish army veterans offered 500 shekels ($140) a day to anyone willing to sit in the properties.


On Thursday, Israeli police officers disappeared down a narrow concrete alleyway, bringing a box of supplies deep into the Arab neighborhood to a second-floor apartment. The Israelis peered out from windows they enveloped in wire mesh, and would not open the door to visitors.


In a narrow alleyway below, an exasperated Palestinian woman, 23-year-old Bushra Mohammed Adel Khayyatt, said her laptop and jewelry were stuck inside the apartment, and that her knocks on the door and pleas to get her belongings back have gone unanswered. She insisted her family had not sold the apartment.


A group of young Palestinian residents gathered and screamed at her, accusing her family of selling their home to the new residents.


“Are you crazy?” she retorted. “How would my father sell to Jews?”


​

What often happens is the Arabs are unwilling to sell to Jews but intermediaries claiming they will not do that do just that. They are often employee's of corporations like Elad so it is a very deceptive practice. On the othe side of course - Arabs who sell to Jews face retribution from family and neighbors. And perception matters. They can say Arabs are allowed to live anywhere in Jerusalem but that is not the case in reality. Most "settlements" are Jewish only, even though the laws state that they can not have rules that discriminate ethnically they do.

Are there any new Palestinian settlements in West Jerusalem?

Is there any reason NOT to believe that increasing the number of Jews living in East Jerusalem and decreasing (through lack of residency permits, dishonest selling practices) - is not a means of gaining ethnic control over East Jerusalem?

It's a complex problem, and to add to the mess is housing costs in Jerusalem, which are so high that the Palestinians, who are NOT subsidized by outside groups - simply can not afford to live there.

Coyote, did you miss the part where the Arabs took the JEWISH QUARTER of Jerusalem in 1948 and expelled all the Jewish inhabitants from there?

HOW MANY ARABS do you think lived in the JEWISH QUARTER of Jerusalem before 1948?

Am I missing something, that Israeli courts, which are on the Left and giving away Jewish rights and lands are NOT on the side of the rightful Jewish owners of homes and businesses of the area known before 1948 as the JEWISH QUARTER ?

Someone who knows about Israeli law and the Supreme court, or anything else which is going on, please enlighten me.

It is complex isn't it?

So 70 years ago in war, 2000 Jews were driven out of the Jewish quarter with the proclomation that "not a single Jew was left". No one is saying that is right.

Then 50 years ago, in 1967, it was reversed and 6,000 Palestinians were driven out.

Beginning in the years immediately after 1967, around 6,000 Arabs were evicted from the Jewish Quarter, and the start of exclusion of Palestinians from appropriated land by the private company in charge of its development, for the reason that they were not Jewish. This later became legal precedent in 1978 when the Supreme Court made a decision in the case of Mohammed Burqan, in which the Court ruled that, while Burqan did own his home, he could not return because the area had "special historical significance" to the Jewish people.[25]​

Two wrongs don't make a right do they? Or do they?

I cannot help you in the way you think.

You think, that 6000 Arabs, for 19 years, had the right to live and keep those homes and businesses where Jews were attacked and expelled from in 1948.

I do not see where all Arabs, if that number is true and the article (source ?) as well
could possibly have been expelled, or eventually lost where they ended up living, once all the Jews were gone, if it continues to be a Mostly Muslim Arab population living there.

No Jews reside in Jordan. They were kicked out by force in 1925.
No Jews reside in Gaza since 2005.

There is a consistent pattern of expulsion of Jews and their inability to reclaim ANY of the land, homes or businesses they once lived on or owned.

You do not seem to have any idea how many Jews were never allowed to reclaim their homes in the Jewish Quarter after 1967. And still cannot.

 

[abi]

How is that relevant? Numbers increase rights or something?

Didn't you say: They control sites integral to two other major and volatile world religions?

Do you consider Sikhism, [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritism']Spiritism and Bahá'í [/URL]major world religions too?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Jerusalem was NEVER important to Islam before 1948. EVER.

How stupid. Look at this... with your eyes open:

Have a clue as to long ago the Muslims built that stuff?

They built that subsequent to war and conquest. Haven't you been whining about land seized during war is illegal?

The laws, values and ethics of today did not exist thousands of years ago.

What you do not seem to realize is that the laws of today have no consequences to the Arab Muslims who want ALL of Israel back into Muslim hands.

They were conquerors in the 7th century CE. They are conquerors now in the 21st Century.

Except that isn't representative of most of the Palestinians who have, until relatively recently when it became less and less probable - supported a two state solution.

Most Palestinian Arabs support the destruction of Israel, and turning ALL of the Mandate for Palestine into a Pan Arab Caliphate.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Here is what has been happening in East Jerusalem in regards to rights.

Israeli courts has upheld a 63 year old controversial absentee landowner law that allows for the confiscation of Arab-owned properties in East Jerusalem. The courts specified it was legal but should be used rarely. The "rarely" part seems to be abused. According to this article, "the court said the state may confiscate East Jerusalem property held by West Bank residents".

Jewish settlers, such as the rightwing Elad Corporation have been moving into the traditionally Arab sectors of Jerusalem benefiting from these absentee confiscations as well as buying up property under false pretenses.

The absentee landowner laws forced Palestinians to sell because they were not allowed to return.

Other means of purchasing and "occupying" property are also questionable, for example:

Sudden apartment takeovers in east Jerusalem spark anger

Jewish real estate deals in the contentious Silwan area have long been murky. Purchases often go through intermediaries, which those involved says protects the Arab sellers from being attacked by their neighbors. In some cases, Arabs who say they are the rightful homeowners take Elad to court, arguing the properties were sold by imposters posing as homeowners.

Residents move in at night while Arab neighbors are asleep. The Israeli government bankrolls armed security guards to protect the Jewish residences, many of which are equipped with blooming geranium bushes, Israeli flags and security cameras.


Elad long has attracted controversy because of its nationalistic agenda. But Elad says the area is central to Jewish heritage, and investment in the area has benefited Arab and Jewish residents alike.


“We would like to see a majority of Jews living in this area,” Spielman said. “Having said that, we respect our Arab neighbors.”


About 500 Jews live in the area, and the newly purchased homes will allow for 200 more, Spielman said.


Until residents move in, the properties are occupied by police officers, private security guards, and young volunteers packing pistols. An ad on a Facebook page for religious Jewish army veterans offered 500 shekels ($140) a day to anyone willing to sit in the properties.


On Thursday, Israeli police officers disappeared down a narrow concrete alleyway, bringing a box of supplies deep into the Arab neighborhood to a second-floor apartment. The Israelis peered out from windows they enveloped in wire mesh, and would not open the door to visitors.


In a narrow alleyway below, an exasperated Palestinian woman, 23-year-old Bushra Mohammed Adel Khayyatt, said her laptop and jewelry were stuck inside the apartment, and that her knocks on the door and pleas to get her belongings back have gone unanswered. She insisted her family had not sold the apartment.


A group of young Palestinian residents gathered and screamed at her, accusing her family of selling their home to the new residents.


“Are you crazy?” she retorted. “How would my father sell to Jews?”


​

What often happens is the Arabs are unwilling to sell to Jews but intermediaries claiming they will not do that do just that. They are often employee's of corporations like Elad so it is a very deceptive practice. On the othe side of course - Arabs who sell to Jews face retribution from family and neighbors. And perception matters. They can say Arabs are allowed to live anywhere in Jerusalem but that is not the case in reality. Most "settlements" are Jewish only, even though the laws state that they can not have rules that discriminate ethnically they do.

Are there any new Palestinian settlements in West Jerusalem?

Is there any reason NOT to believe that increasing the number of Jews living in East Jerusalem and decreasing (through lack of residency permits, dishonest selling practices) - is not a means of gaining ethnic control over East Jerusalem?

It's a complex problem, and to add to the mess is housing costs in Jerusalem, which are so high that the Palestinians, who are NOT subsidized by outside groups - simply can not afford to live there.

Indeed, the Nakba was not an event, it is an ongoing process.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Here is what has been happening in East Jerusalem in regards to rights.

Israeli courts has upheld a 63 year old controversial absentee landowner law that allows for the confiscation of Arab-owned properties in East Jerusalem. The courts specified it was legal but should be used rarely. The "rarely" part seems to be abused. According to this article, "the court said the state may confiscate East Jerusalem property held by West Bank residents".

Jewish settlers, such as the rightwing Elad Corporation have been moving into the traditionally Arab sectors of Jerusalem benefiting from these absentee confiscations as well as buying up property under false pretenses.

The absentee landowner laws forced Palestinians to sell because they were not allowed to return.

Other means of purchasing and "occupying" property are also questionable, for example:

Sudden apartment takeovers in east Jerusalem spark anger

Jewish real estate deals in the contentious Silwan area have long been murky. Purchases often go through intermediaries, which those involved says protects the Arab sellers from being attacked by their neighbors. In some cases, Arabs who say they are the rightful homeowners take Elad to court, arguing the properties were sold by imposters posing as homeowners.

Residents move in at night while Arab neighbors are asleep. The Israeli government bankrolls armed security guards to protect the Jewish residences, many of which are equipped with blooming geranium bushes, Israeli flags and security cameras.


Elad long has attracted controversy because of its nationalistic agenda. But Elad says the area is central to Jewish heritage, and investment in the area has benefited Arab and Jewish residents alike.


“We would like to see a majority of Jews living in this area,” Spielman said. “Having said that, we respect our Arab neighbors.”


About 500 Jews live in the area, and the newly purchased homes will allow for 200 more, Spielman said.


Until residents move in, the properties are occupied by police officers, private security guards, and young volunteers packing pistols. An ad on a Facebook page for religious Jewish army veterans offered 500 shekels ($140) a day to anyone willing to sit in the properties.


On Thursday, Israeli police officers disappeared down a narrow concrete alleyway, bringing a box of supplies deep into the Arab neighborhood to a second-floor apartment. The Israelis peered out from windows they enveloped in wire mesh, and would not open the door to visitors.


In a narrow alleyway below, an exasperated Palestinian woman, 23-year-old Bushra Mohammed Adel Khayyatt, said her laptop and jewelry were stuck inside the apartment, and that her knocks on the door and pleas to get her belongings back have gone unanswered. She insisted her family had not sold the apartment.


A group of young Palestinian residents gathered and screamed at her, accusing her family of selling their home to the new residents.


“Are you crazy?” she retorted. “How would my father sell to Jews?”


​

What often happens is the Arabs are unwilling to sell to Jews but intermediaries claiming they will not do that do just that. They are often employee's of corporations like Elad so it is a very deceptive practice. On the othe side of course - Arabs who sell to Jews face retribution from family and neighbors. And perception matters. They can say Arabs are allowed to live anywhere in Jerusalem but that is not the case in reality. Most "settlements" are Jewish only, even though the laws state that they can not have rules that discriminate ethnically they do.

Are there any new Palestinian settlements in West Jerusalem?

Is there any reason NOT to believe that increasing the number of Jews living in East Jerusalem and decreasing (through lack of residency permits, dishonest selling practices) - is not a means of gaining ethnic control over East Jerusalem?

It's a complex problem, and to add to the mess is housing costs in Jerusalem, which are so high that the Palestinians, who are NOT subsidized by outside groups - simply can not afford to live there.

Indeed, the Nakba was not an event, it is an ongoing process.

The Arab Muslim Nakba (catastrophe) was not having succeeded at destroying Israel in 1948.

It is a catastrophe which gratefully will continue for all eternity.

The non destruction of Israel, that is.

 

[Shusha]

What often happens is the Arabs are unwilling to sell to Jews but intermediaries claiming they will not do that do just that. They are often employee's of corporations like Elad so it is a very deceptive practice. On the othe side of course - Arabs who sell to Jews face retribution from family and neighbors. And perception matters. They can say Arabs are allowed to live anywhere in Jerusalem but that is not the case in reality. Most "settlements" are Jewish only, even though the laws state that they can not have rules that discriminate ethnically they do.

Are there any new Palestinian settlements in West Jerusalem?

Is there any reason NOT to believe that increasing the number of Jews living in East Jerusalem and decreasing (through lack of residency permits, dishonest selling practices) - is not a means of gaining ethnic control over East Jerusalem?

It's a complex problem, and to add to the mess is housing costs in Jerusalem, which are so high that the Palestinians, who are NOT subsidized by outside groups - simply can not afford to live there.

Private property ownership is not sovereignty, so much of this argument is based on a false premise. The two things have absolutely nothing to do with each other. And sovereignty of Jerusalem will not be negotiated based on demographics. Both Parties will want sovereignty of Jerusalem regardless of demographics.

Israel has demonstrated a clear ability to accept its Arab minority and create a legal environment of non-discrimination (despite Team P's wailing to the contrary). Israel, like many nations, still struggles with actual discrimination despite the laws preventing it. Israel also has to consider its own security and the safety of its citizens. Controlling a hostile minority population is a challenge.

Arab Palestine, in contrast, have clearly demonstrated their lack of intent to accept a Jewish minority population and have publicly stated this time and again. We can see it in practice, not just in the West Bank and Gaza but all through the ME.

The Arabs of East Jerusalem have an informal but strict policy (to the point of violence) of not selling homes to Jews. Its discrimination, pure and simple. Despite the fact that Israel has laws to prevent discrimination, Jews also prevent Arabs from buying homes and living in "Jewish neighborhoods". Also discrimination. The level of mistrust is so high, it is impossible not to have discrimination at this point.

The eventual sovereign will have to deal with all of these issues just as Israel, the current legal administrator, is forced to deal with all this. If the intent is to have mixed neighborhoods where both Jews and Arabs live, and to ensure legal access to housing for both Arabs and Jews, Israel is actually on the right track under extremely difficult circumstances. Israel's position is that there should be NO restriction of property purchase based on ethnicity. You agree that is the right policy, yes? Israel is accepting applications for citizenship of Arabs in Israel. You agree that this is the right policy, yes?

The hope is that Jerusalem will be a thriving multi-ethnic, multi-religious city. Israel is certainly more than capable of achieving that goal. Far more capable, at this point, than any Arab Palestinian government.

 

[USAF 2023]

Big question here. Why are several saying that Jerusalem doesn't mean all of Jerusalem when referring to recognizing the city as the capital of Israel

Israel claims all of Jerusalem as its "united" capital, and its annexation of East Jerusalem in the 1967 war effectively put the entire city under Israeli control. So is the capital only WEST Jerusalem?


And let us reiterate the oft repeated refrain...borders are supposed to be determined through negotiation....right?

Yawn..,, Tell us please what proposals the Palestinians put forth to “ negotiate” that Israel rejected

 

[Shusha]

The Olmert Plan, offered to Arab Palestinians in 2008, included part of Jerusalem and the Old City. The Arabs rejected it.
I don't think Jerusalem will be offered again.

 

[abi]

The Olmert Plan, offered to Arab Palestinians in 2008, included part of Jerusalem and the Old City. The Arabs rejected it.
I don't think Jerusalem will be offered again.

If I steal your home at gunpoint and generously offer to allow you and your family to live in the basement while I rule over you, would you take it?

 

[Shusha]

The Olmert Plan, offered to Arab Palestinians in 2008, included part of Jerusalem and the Old City. The Arabs rejected it.
I don't think Jerusalem will be offered again.

If I steal your home at gunpoint and generously offer to allow you and your family to live in the basement while I rule over you, would you take it?

Do I get to wear a yellow star and pay a special protection tax?

 

[admonit]

Now fast forward to the UNILATERAL decision by the US to recognize Jerusalem (in entirety) as the capital of Israel and then it's use of the bully pulpit in an attempt to punish those who push back on said unilateral decision.

So much for the idea that these things should be negotiated - that does not seem to be applied even handedly at all. Israel is rewarded. Palestine is punished. The requirement for these things to be negotiated only seems to apply to the Palestinians.

The US doesn't recognize Jerusalem in entirety. It's your interpretation.
General Assembly resolution 67/19 (and many others) call East Jerusalem "occupied Palestinian territory". Was it negotiated? Wasn't it a unilateral decision?

The UN is a multilateral body.

And? A multilateral body cannot be biased?

The presidents statement said Jerusalem not part of it. So what did he mean? Jerusalem is claimed by two factions is it not?.

STATUS OF JERUSALEM: President Trump recognizes that specific boundaries of sovereignty in Jerusalem is highly sensitive and subject to final status negotiations.
President Donald J. Trump's Proclamation on Jerusalem as the Capital of the State of Israel | The White House

Why the double standard where the Palestinians are punished for unilateral actions and Israel rewarded?

I already explained that Israel is punished by the United Nations.

 

[abi]

Do I get to wear a yellow star and pay a special protection tax?

Thank-you! You admit the similar ideology with the Nazis and the zionists.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Do I get to wear a yellow star and pay a special protection tax?

Thank-you! You admit the similar ideology with the Nazis and the zionists.

Herr Goebbles, English miscomprehension - of the deliberate kind - again.

 

[Shusha]

Do I get to wear a yellow star and pay a special protection tax?

Thank-you! You admit the similar ideology with the Nazis and the zionists.

Hardly. The Jewish people want their house back.

 

[abi]

Hardly. The Jewish people want their house back.

Sick. The zionists came from another continent. They had no houses there. Ask your friend, Coyote.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Hardly. The Jewish people want their house back.

Sick. The zionists came from another continent. They had no houses there. Ask your friend, Coyote.

You separate Jews from Zionists.

You, pom pom, are sick. (Time for a thrown up. Will be right back )

 

[abi]

You separate Jews from Zionists.

You have to. Little did you know that there are 50 million Christian zionists in America alone. That is 35 million more than the entire Jewish population worldwide.

The zionists do NOT speak for the Jewish people and antizionism is NOT antisemitism.

 

[Sixties Fan]

You separate Jews from Zionists.

You have to. Little did you know that there are 50 million Christian zionists in America alone. That is 35 million more than the entire Jewish population worldwide.

The zionists do NOT speak for the Jewish people and antizionism is NOT antisemitism.

Keep up your sick tirades about Zionism is and who is a Zionist and who is a Jew and who......and who.....and who........
(I am getting sleepy.....)

 

[abi]

You separate Jews from Zionists.

You have to. Little did you know that there are 50 million Christian zionists in America alone. That is 35 million more than the entire Jewish population worldwide.

The zionists do NOT speak for the Jewish people and antizionism is NOT antisemitism.

Keep up your sick tirades about Zionism is and who is a Zionist and who is a Jew and who......and who.....and who........
(I am getting sleepy.....)

There are 50 million Christian zionists in America alone. That is 35 million more than the entire Jewish population worldwide.

Are you capable of figuring out that you are wrong?