The Right To Destroy Jewish History

[Shusha]

Well, yes, how they are handled matters. The problem in that area right now is that the right wing on both sides is using conflict to enhance their own positions.

What I meant by "it doesn't matter" is that the REALITY isn't important, it's the narrative that each side is producing that is important, that is what is pushing this whole thing, rather than the reality of whether this cultural site is "destroyed" or whatever. If the Palestinian people BELIEVE something has happened, or the Israeli people BELIEVE something has happened, then this is more important than whether it actually happened or not.

I actually hear what you are saying. However, the Arabs (and not just the Palestinians) are using the actual destruction of history as evidence that the Jewish people don't have a history in that land. They are creating a false reality, a false historical record, to erase the Jewish people. Deliberately. Intentionally. This is VASTLY different than Israel being insensitive about a Muslim burial ground.

Well, both sides are creating a false narrative.

Israel is pushing conflict for a reason, and that reason is an excuse to push the boundaries of the state. Without conflict they could never get the support to do this.

There are different ways to try and do this, they're all bad, but this doesn't mean that Israel is any less guilty of trying to destroy culture in order to try and control the narrative.

But Israel is NOT destroying culture to control the narrative.

 

[montelatici]

Well, yes, how they are handled matters. The problem in that area right now is that the right wing on both sides is using conflict to enhance their own positions.

What I meant by "it doesn't matter" is that the REALITY isn't important, it's the narrative that each side is producing that is important, that is what is pushing this whole thing, rather than the reality of whether this cultural site is "destroyed" or whatever. If the Palestinian people BELIEVE something has happened, or the Israeli people BELIEVE something has happened, then this is more important than whether it actually happened or not.

I actually hear what you are saying. However, the Arabs (and not just the Palestinians) are using the actual destruction of history as evidence that the Jewish people don't have a history in that land. They are creating a false reality, a false historical record, to erase the Jewish people. Deliberately. Intentionally. This is VASTLY different than Israel being insensitive about a Muslim burial ground.

Well, both sides are creating a false narrative.

Israel is pushing conflict for a reason, and that reason is an excuse to push the boundaries of the state. Without conflict they could never get the support to do this.

There are different ways to try and do this, they're all bad, but this doesn't mean that Israel is any less guilty of trying to destroy culture in order to try and control the narrative.

But Israel is NOT destroying culture to control the narrative.

Claiming that a people do not exist is tantamount to destroying their culture.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Well, yes, how they are handled matters. The problem in that area right now is that the right wing on both sides is using conflict to enhance their own positions.

What I meant by "it doesn't matter" is that the REALITY isn't important, it's the narrative that each side is producing that is important, that is what is pushing this whole thing, rather than the reality of whether this cultural site is "destroyed" or whatever. If the Palestinian people BELIEVE something has happened, or the Israeli people BELIEVE something has happened, then this is more important than whether it actually happened or not.

I actually hear what you are saying. However, the Arabs (and not just the Palestinians) are using the actual destruction of history as evidence that the Jewish people don't have a history in that land. They are creating a false reality, a false historical record, to erase the Jewish people. Deliberately. Intentionally. This is VASTLY different than Israel being insensitive about a Muslim burial ground.

Well, both sides are creating a false narrative.

Israel is pushing conflict for a reason, and that reason is an excuse to push the boundaries of the state. Without conflict they could never get the support to do this.

There are different ways to try and do this, they're all bad, but this doesn't mean that Israel is any less guilty of trying to destroy culture in order to try and control the narrative.

But Israel is NOT destroying culture to control the narrative.

Is it not?

Palestinian refugee camps - Wikipedia

Why do such camps exist? How can culture not be destroyed when people don't even have their own home?

Israel to demolish village in West Bank

Destroying villages doesn't destroy culture? Sure it does. We're not talking historical artifacts here, we're talking people's lives. That's where culture comes from.

Jewish Claim To The Land Of Israel

"The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; 2) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 3) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and 4) the territory was captured in defensive wars."

Claims for the land of Israel/Palestine to be Jewish are stated here. 1) is that "God promised the land" to them. That's pretty far fetched from where I'm sitting to use your own religion as justification for kicking other people off the land.

2) is probably the only one with any real substance here. That they have been a presence in the land, along with the Muslims, means that both should share the land, rather than trying to claim it all.

Israel IS a Jewish country

But here we have "Israel IS a Jewish country"

So, if it's a Jewish country, what about the Muslims who have lived in the region their whole life?

If they're trying to make it a Jewish country, what happens to Muslim or any other culture?

When Israel was granted the land by countries from nowhere near Israel, they displaced lots of people, took over and imposed their own culture on the land. To me that's a destruction of culture. It'd be impossible to do what Israel has done without that.

 

[there4eyeM]

How can U.S. tax dollars be used to aid a religion?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Let us not discuss that.
They always end up moving the conversation to the "Jews".

What right do the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians have of destroying Jewish History. That is what I would love to find out.

It's not about rights, it's about power.

You want to turn the conversation into that.

Start your own thread.

Oh right, I'm sorry, yeah, everyone should agree with you because this thread is about how you are right, I forgot that, seeing as you're wrong.

Maybe I will start a thread and anyone who disagrees with me, I'll report their posts so that the whole thread is about ME.

"It's not about rights, it's about power."

The thread is called "The right to destroy Jewish History"

The Palestinians are using their power to destroy Jewish history, which should actually be their history, at least they keep saying they were around since about 10,000 years ago.

Now, where is it not about the asking What right do the Palestinians have to destroy Jewish History, and is it about power, which you are clearly trying to put on the Jewish side, because according to you Israel has the power.

Your theory falls apart because Israel has not had any "power" to stop the destruction of its own history by the hands of the very people who say they are the indigenous people of the land, and therefore all of that which they are destroying should have been Palestinian history and heritage.

Would you like to use the world power again for anything else when it comes to the Jewish people and Israel, or can you discuss what exactly is the Arab Palestinian Right.....to destroy Jewish history?

Ah, so, if I start a thread called "the Moon is made out of cheese", you're not allowed to say that the Moon isn't made out of cheese?

Your thread says "the right to destroy Jewish History" and I think your title is rubbish. Rights exist, they protect people from government abuse of power. So, if I had a right to destroy Jewish History, I'd have protection from govt intrusion into my destruction.

However this isn't what you're talking about.

Govts don't have rights.

However potentially you're talking about whether it's morally correct for Muslims to be trying to destroy Jewish History. Well, my personal view on that would be that Israel does the same thing, so, you reap what you sow.

However at the end of the day it's all about power. If the Palestinians can destroy Jewish History, they'll try and do it. If the Israelis try and stop them, then this is their power. It's competing power.

Really you can't destroy History, you can only destroy the narrative. Often the narrative is what one side decides is the narrative.

Back to the Armenian Genocide. Did it happen? Well, according to the Turks and the Israelis, no, it did not happen. According to the Armenians, yes, it did happen. Both of these are "History", both of them are different Narratives.

Now, are the Palestinians trying to destroy the true History of Israel and the Jews or are they trying to destroy the narrative that the Israelis and Jews claim is their History?

Two very different things.

No, my argument doesn't fall apart. Israel has a lot of power, it has billions of US dollars, the backing of the US and weapons that make it formidable opponent in battle. It also has the UN which it is currently using, with US backing, to try and force the UN to go by Israeli narratives rather than Muslim.

Your argument is basically "boohoo, the Jews are the victims from the aggression of the Muslims", I disagree with that argument. Israel is fighting just as much as the Palestinians are for the power they want to hold.

I will continue to use the word power, because, unfortunately in this world, power is what counts and what is right or not gets left behind. Reality as opposed to you trying to deal in some sort of fantasy because the fantasy pushes towards your own agenda.

Now, would you like people to be able to talk freely on this issue, or would you like this thread to be about how you are right?

I don't know what Israel's official position on TURKEY's genocide of Armenians in 1914 is. I do know about realities on the ground. Jerusalem's Old City is divided into 4 Quarters--Jewish, Muslim, Christian and Armenian. My best friend moved to Israel and, for a time, taught in an Armenian school in their Quarter of the Old City. He told me that there are many monuments to their genocide in their Quarter. Their genocide is taught very extensively in their schools, and they have their own holiday to remember that event. Israel does not prohibit any of this, nor is there any reason why they should do so. The Armenian genocide falls on Turkey's shoulders, not Israel's in any way.

 

[Sixties Fan]

It's not about rights, it's about power.

You want to turn the conversation into that.

Start your own thread.

Oh right, I'm sorry, yeah, everyone should agree with you because this thread is about how you are right, I forgot that, seeing as you're wrong.

Maybe I will start a thread and anyone who disagrees with me, I'll report their posts so that the whole thread is about ME.

"It's not about rights, it's about power."

The thread is called "The right to destroy Jewish History"

The Palestinians are using their power to destroy Jewish history, which should actually be their history, at least they keep saying they were around since about 10,000 years ago.

Now, where is it not about the asking What right do the Palestinians have to destroy Jewish History, and is it about power, which you are clearly trying to put on the Jewish side, because according to you Israel has the power.

Your theory falls apart because Israel has not had any "power" to stop the destruction of its own history by the hands of the very people who say they are the indigenous people of the land, and therefore all of that which they are destroying should have been Palestinian history and heritage.

Would you like to use the world power again for anything else when it comes to the Jewish people and Israel, or can you discuss what exactly is the Arab Palestinian Right.....to destroy Jewish history?

Ah, so, if I start a thread called "the Moon is made out of cheese", you're not allowed to say that the Moon isn't made out of cheese?

Your thread says "the right to destroy Jewish History" and I think your title is rubbish. Rights exist, they protect people from government abuse of power. So, if I had a right to destroy Jewish History, I'd have protection from govt intrusion into my destruction.

However this isn't what you're talking about.

Govts don't have rights.

However potentially you're talking about whether it's morally correct for Muslims to be trying to destroy Jewish History. Well, my personal view on that would be that Israel does the same thing, so, you reap what you sow.

However at the end of the day it's all about power. If the Palestinians can destroy Jewish History, they'll try and do it. If the Israelis try and stop them, then this is their power. It's competing power.

Really you can't destroy History, you can only destroy the narrative. Often the narrative is what one side decides is the narrative.

Back to the Armenian Genocide. Did it happen? Well, according to the Turks and the Israelis, no, it did not happen. According to the Armenians, yes, it did happen. Both of these are "History", both of them are different Narratives.

Now, are the Palestinians trying to destroy the true History of Israel and the Jews or are they trying to destroy the narrative that the Israelis and Jews claim is their History?

Two very different things.

No, my argument doesn't fall apart. Israel has a lot of power, it has billions of US dollars, the backing of the US and weapons that make it formidable opponent in battle. It also has the UN which it is currently using, with US backing, to try and force the UN to go by Israeli narratives rather than Muslim.

Your argument is basically "boohoo, the Jews are the victims from the aggression of the Muslims", I disagree with that argument. Israel is fighting just as much as the Palestinians are for the power they want to hold.

I will continue to use the word power, because, unfortunately in this world, power is what counts and what is right or not gets left behind. Reality as opposed to you trying to deal in some sort of fantasy because the fantasy pushes towards your own agenda.

Now, would you like people to be able to talk freely on this issue, or would you like this thread to be about how you are right?

I don't know what Israel's official position on TURKEY's genocide of Armenians in 1914 is. I do know about realities on the ground. Jerusalem's Old City is divided into 4 Quarters--Jewish, Muslim, Christian and Armenian. My best friend moved to Israel and, for a time, taught in an Armenian school in their Quarter of the Old City. He told me that there are many monuments to their genocide in their Quarter. Their genocide is taught very extensively in their schools, and they have their own holiday to remember that event. Israel does not prohibit any of this, nor is there any reason why they should do so. The Armenian genocide falls on Turkey's shoulders, not Israel's in any way.

I would say that Jews in general have condemned the Armenian genocide.
Israel, because it had been trying to cultivate a peaceful relationship with Turkey ( who knows what it is like now with Erdogan's stand on Jerusalem and many other things, which is no different with what he did with the flotilla.....) it treads carefully, diplomatically on the subject.

There is a list on Wikepedia of all the countries which had condemned the genocide to this day. Israel is not the only country which has not done it, and we do not know the reason for so many other countries for not condemning Turkey to this day.

All of this needs to be taken with a grain of salt, the same way as it is with Russia and China and many other countries where abuse or murder of the population has happened.

 

[frigidweirdo]

It's not about rights, it's about power.

You want to turn the conversation into that.

Start your own thread.

Oh right, I'm sorry, yeah, everyone should agree with you because this thread is about how you are right, I forgot that, seeing as you're wrong.

Maybe I will start a thread and anyone who disagrees with me, I'll report their posts so that the whole thread is about ME.

"It's not about rights, it's about power."

The thread is called "The right to destroy Jewish History"

The Palestinians are using their power to destroy Jewish history, which should actually be their history, at least they keep saying they were around since about 10,000 years ago.

Now, where is it not about the asking What right do the Palestinians have to destroy Jewish History, and is it about power, which you are clearly trying to put on the Jewish side, because according to you Israel has the power.

Your theory falls apart because Israel has not had any "power" to stop the destruction of its own history by the hands of the very people who say they are the indigenous people of the land, and therefore all of that which they are destroying should have been Palestinian history and heritage.

Would you like to use the world power again for anything else when it comes to the Jewish people and Israel, or can you discuss what exactly is the Arab Palestinian Right.....to destroy Jewish history?

Ah, so, if I start a thread called "the Moon is made out of cheese", you're not allowed to say that the Moon isn't made out of cheese?

Your thread says "the right to destroy Jewish History" and I think your title is rubbish. Rights exist, they protect people from government abuse of power. So, if I had a right to destroy Jewish History, I'd have protection from govt intrusion into my destruction.

However this isn't what you're talking about.

Govts don't have rights.

However potentially you're talking about whether it's morally correct for Muslims to be trying to destroy Jewish History. Well, my personal view on that would be that Israel does the same thing, so, you reap what you sow.

However at the end of the day it's all about power. If the Palestinians can destroy Jewish History, they'll try and do it. If the Israelis try and stop them, then this is their power. It's competing power.

Really you can't destroy History, you can only destroy the narrative. Often the narrative is what one side decides is the narrative.

Back to the Armenian Genocide. Did it happen? Well, according to the Turks and the Israelis, no, it did not happen. According to the Armenians, yes, it did happen. Both of these are "History", both of them are different Narratives.

Now, are the Palestinians trying to destroy the true History of Israel and the Jews or are they trying to destroy the narrative that the Israelis and Jews claim is their History?

Two very different things.

No, my argument doesn't fall apart. Israel has a lot of power, it has billions of US dollars, the backing of the US and weapons that make it formidable opponent in battle. It also has the UN which it is currently using, with US backing, to try and force the UN to go by Israeli narratives rather than Muslim.

Your argument is basically "boohoo, the Jews are the victims from the aggression of the Muslims", I disagree with that argument. Israel is fighting just as much as the Palestinians are for the power they want to hold.

I will continue to use the word power, because, unfortunately in this world, power is what counts and what is right or not gets left behind. Reality as opposed to you trying to deal in some sort of fantasy because the fantasy pushes towards your own agenda.

Now, would you like people to be able to talk freely on this issue, or would you like this thread to be about how you are right?

I don't know what Israel's official position on TURKEY's genocide of Armenians in 1914 is. I do know about realities on the ground. Jerusalem's Old City is divided into 4 Quarters--Jewish, Muslim, Christian and Armenian. My best friend moved to Israel and, for a time, taught in an Armenian school in their Quarter of the Old City. He told me that there are many monuments to their genocide in their Quarter. Their genocide is taught very extensively in their schools, and they have their own holiday to remember that event. Israel does not prohibit any of this, nor is there any reason why they should do so. The Armenian genocide falls on Turkey's shoulders, not Israel's in any way.

Well, you should go look up Israel's position on the Armenian Genocide. It's very telling.

Why Israel does not recognize the Armenian ‘genocide’

Israel won't recognize Armenian genocide, says ambassador

"Israel Won't Recognize Armenian Genocide, Says Ambassador"

No, Israel doesn't need to ban such things because banning such things would destroy what they want to achieve from not recognizing the massacre, which is publicity of the massacre.

Israel wants the sole power of victimization from the Holocaust.

United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

US Holocaust Museum in DC

You look at the website it says "Learn about the Holocaust" "Remember survivors and victims" and "Confront genocide antisemitism"

Yes, antisemitism is there. Sure, the Holocaust was a big loss to the Jewish people, a terrible time for their people, but the Holocaust wasn't just antisemitism, it was anti a lot of things, like Gypsies and the like too.

Learn about the Holocaust — United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

"The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators."

No, that's bullshit. It wasn't JUST the killing of 6 million Jews by the Nazis. That was a large part of it, but not the only part.

Jews and Israel have tried to make the Holocaust into THEIR event, and ONLY their event. Others who died in the Holocaust MUST BE forgotten so that Israel can reap the victimization of this to its fullest extent.

Not accepting the Armenian Holocaust is a major part of this.

 

[frigidweirdo]

You want to turn the conversation into that.

Start your own thread.

Oh right, I'm sorry, yeah, everyone should agree with you because this thread is about how you are right, I forgot that, seeing as you're wrong.

Maybe I will start a thread and anyone who disagrees with me, I'll report their posts so that the whole thread is about ME.

"It's not about rights, it's about power."

The thread is called "The right to destroy Jewish History"

The Palestinians are using their power to destroy Jewish history, which should actually be their history, at least they keep saying they were around since about 10,000 years ago.

Now, where is it not about the asking What right do the Palestinians have to destroy Jewish History, and is it about power, which you are clearly trying to put on the Jewish side, because according to you Israel has the power.

Your theory falls apart because Israel has not had any "power" to stop the destruction of its own history by the hands of the very people who say they are the indigenous people of the land, and therefore all of that which they are destroying should have been Palestinian history and heritage.

Would you like to use the world power again for anything else when it comes to the Jewish people and Israel, or can you discuss what exactly is the Arab Palestinian Right.....to destroy Jewish history?

Ah, so, if I start a thread called "the Moon is made out of cheese", you're not allowed to say that the Moon isn't made out of cheese?

Your thread says "the right to destroy Jewish History" and I think your title is rubbish. Rights exist, they protect people from government abuse of power. So, if I had a right to destroy Jewish History, I'd have protection from govt intrusion into my destruction.

However this isn't what you're talking about.

Govts don't have rights.

However potentially you're talking about whether it's morally correct for Muslims to be trying to destroy Jewish History. Well, my personal view on that would be that Israel does the same thing, so, you reap what you sow.

However at the end of the day it's all about power. If the Palestinians can destroy Jewish History, they'll try and do it. If the Israelis try and stop them, then this is their power. It's competing power.

Really you can't destroy History, you can only destroy the narrative. Often the narrative is what one side decides is the narrative.

Back to the Armenian Genocide. Did it happen? Well, according to the Turks and the Israelis, no, it did not happen. According to the Armenians, yes, it did happen. Both of these are "History", both of them are different Narratives.

Now, are the Palestinians trying to destroy the true History of Israel and the Jews or are they trying to destroy the narrative that the Israelis and Jews claim is their History?

Two very different things.

No, my argument doesn't fall apart. Israel has a lot of power, it has billions of US dollars, the backing of the US and weapons that make it formidable opponent in battle. It also has the UN which it is currently using, with US backing, to try and force the UN to go by Israeli narratives rather than Muslim.

Your argument is basically "boohoo, the Jews are the victims from the aggression of the Muslims", I disagree with that argument. Israel is fighting just as much as the Palestinians are for the power they want to hold.

I will continue to use the word power, because, unfortunately in this world, power is what counts and what is right or not gets left behind. Reality as opposed to you trying to deal in some sort of fantasy because the fantasy pushes towards your own agenda.

Now, would you like people to be able to talk freely on this issue, or would you like this thread to be about how you are right?

I don't know what Israel's official position on TURKEY's genocide of Armenians in 1914 is. I do know about realities on the ground. Jerusalem's Old City is divided into 4 Quarters--Jewish, Muslim, Christian and Armenian. My best friend moved to Israel and, for a time, taught in an Armenian school in their Quarter of the Old City. He told me that there are many monuments to their genocide in their Quarter. Their genocide is taught very extensively in their schools, and they have their own holiday to remember that event. Israel does not prohibit any of this, nor is there any reason why they should do so. The Armenian genocide falls on Turkey's shoulders, not Israel's in any way.

I would say that Jews in general have condemned the Armenian genocide.
Israel, because it had been trying to cultivate a peaceful relationship with Turkey ( who knows what it is like now with Erdogan's stand on Jerusalem and many other things, which is no different with what he did with the flotilla.....) it treads carefully, diplomatically on the subject.

There is a list on Wikepedia of all the countries which had condemned the genocide to this day. Israel is not the only country which has not done it, and we do not know the reason for so many other countries for not condemning Turkey to this day.

All of this needs to be taken with a grain of salt, the same way as it is with Russia and China and many other countries where abuse or murder of the population has happened.

Here's a map of who recognizes it (green) and those where there's partial recognition (light green).

 

[admonit]

There is a list on Wikepedia of all the countries which had condemned the genocide to this day. Israel is not the only country which has not done it

The US didn't it too. According to the list only 29 states have officially recognized the Armenian Genocide.

 

[Humanity]

No one has the right to destroy history. No matter whos it is!

 

[Coyote]

Folks, we are getting off topic, lets return to the topic please

 

[Shusha]

Is it not?

Palestinian refugee camps - Wikipedia

Why do such camps exist? How can culture not be destroyed when people don't even have their own home?

Why do you conflate the intentional destruction of culture with these other topics? The Arabs are deliberately destroying physical artifacts and archaeological sites so that Jewish history becomes lost, non-existent, disappeared. They are doing this specifically for the purpose of denying Jewish history and therefore Jewish claim. They are destroying reality in order to create a false history. (And its working -- see all the ridiculous claims being made on this board and in the Arab world).

This has nothing to do with the camps. And I can say with absolute certainty that a culture is NOT destroyed when people don't even have their own home. The Jewish culture is alive and well and thriving after thousands of years in the Diaspora. But THANK YOU for articulating another fear and concern about why the Jewish people must remain linked to and present in the Jewish homeland. You know, besides having that history destroyed by people who wish to usurp not only the territory, but the history.


And, btw, why do these camps exist? There is not a single refugee camp in Israel. ALL of the people of Israel have citizenship, equality under the law and the ability to practice their culture. ALL of the Arabs. And ALL of the nearly one million Jews who were stripped of their homes, properties, livelihoods and citizenship and ethnically cleansed from the surrounding ME countries. Why do these camps exist? They exist in "Palestine", in Gaza, in Jordan and in Lebanon. They exist in the midst of a similar, or even identical, culture, where they should be welcomed. And yet they are left in camps -- denied rights, freedoms, citizenship, the ability to work. Its a terrible thing. And deeply shameful, criminal, for the Arabs to treat their fellows this way.

 

[Sixties Fan]

A Pattern: First destruction, then denial

In 1996, acting without either permits or archaeological supervision, the Waqf brought in heavy machinery and began illegal construction. It did so while falsely claiming to be renovating a pre-existing mosque, one archaeologists deny ever existed.

Despite a court order to cease—which was met with Palestinian riots—unilateral construction by the Waqf continued with bulldozers and trucks being used to excavate and remove 6,000 tons of earth and dump it in the Kidron Valley. Subsequently, archaeologists claimed to have found Jewish artifacts among the rubble. The director of Israel's Antiquities Authority, Amir Drori, called the Waqf's act an “archeological crime.” Attorney General Elyakim Rubenstein referred to the purposeful destruction as “an assault on Jewish history.” One Temple Mount item—found dumped in the Valley—was recently deciphered, revealing it to be an ancient stamp seal from the 10th or 11th century BCE (“Tiny stone seal from King David era found in Temple Mount fill,” Times of Israel, Sept. 24, 2015).

(full article online)

CAMERA: Palestinian Groups Ahead of ISIS in Destroying Antiquities

 

[Coyote]

No one's history should be denied or their artifacts destroyed. It is a deliberate attempt to erase a people...

 

[Coyote]

Well, yes, how they are handled matters. The problem in that area right now is that the right wing on both sides is using conflict to enhance their own positions.

What I meant by "it doesn't matter" is that the REALITY isn't important, it's the narrative that each side is producing that is important, that is what is pushing this whole thing, rather than the reality of whether this cultural site is "destroyed" or whatever. If the Palestinian people BELIEVE something has happened, or the Israeli people BELIEVE something has happened, then this is more important than whether it actually happened or not.

I actually hear what you are saying. However, the Arabs (and not just the Palestinians) are using the actual destruction of history as evidence that the Jewish people don't have a history in that land. They are creating a false reality, a false historical record, to erase the Jewish people. Deliberately. Intentionally. This is VASTLY different than Israel being insensitive about a Muslim burial ground.

Well, both sides are creating a false narrative.

Israel is pushing conflict for a reason, and that reason is an excuse to push the boundaries of the state. Without conflict they could never get the support to do this.

There are different ways to try and do this, they're all bad, but this doesn't mean that Israel is any less guilty of trying to destroy culture in order to try and control the narrative.

But Israel is NOT destroying culture to control the narrative.

But Team Israel IS in the sense they are denying the Palestinians right to their own culture (referring to them as just Arabs) and narrative (Nakbah). As Team Palestine is doing to the Jews - marginalize, minimalize, and erase.

The destruction of artifacts though is beyond contempt. Anothet reason why those places should be under Israeli control I think. Their leadership has shown a willingness and ability to preserve and understand the history and archeology of the region. It is irreplaceable.

 

[Shusha]

Jewish Claim To The Land Of Israel

"The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; 2) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 3) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and 4) the territory was captured in defensive wars."

Claims for the land of Israel/Palestine to be Jewish are stated here. 1) is that "God promised the land" to them. That's pretty far fetched from where I'm sitting to use your own religion as justification for kicking other people off the land.

2) is probably the only one with any real substance here. That they have been a presence in the land, along with the Muslims, means that both should share the land, rather than trying to claim it all.

I'm going to try really hard to stay on topic here. I think you are trying to drag it off course because you can't actually find any instances of Israel deliberately destroying Arab Palestinian culture and yet somehow want to demonize Israel anyway.

First, be clear -- I reject the premise of #1, listed above. Religion, as important as it is to the people who practice it (including me), should never be the basis of political decisions. I also reject #4. The rights and claims of the Jewish people have nothing to do with the result of any conflict. #3 is simply the international acknowledgement of the source of Jewish claim. It is not the actual source.

And here is where we come back to the topic. The Jewish claim to the territory as a homeland for the Jewish people is based on their ancestral, historical, ethnic and religious indigeneity. The Jewish people originated on that land, pre-conquest and pre-invasion. Their history in that land goes back thousands of years. It manifests in their language, their laws, their myths, the clothing they wear, the foods they eat, the holidays they celebrate. The evidence is wide and deep and varied and there can be absolutely no question of the veracity of this.

And yet the Arabs not only question the veracity of this -- they actively attempt to erase the history of the Jewish people. This strategy is employed, not to have the Arab narrative amplified, but to have the Jewish narrative SILENCED. Irrevocably. If there is no evidence that the Jewish people's homeland is in this place, if there is only evidence of Arab occupation, then the Jewish people can be disappeared. And its working. UNESCO has erased the Jewish connection to places like Jerusalem's Old City and the Temple Mount and to Hevron.

 

[Coyote]

Jewish Claim To The Land Of Israel

"The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; 2) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 3) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and 4) the territory was captured in defensive wars."

Claims for the land of Israel/Palestine to be Jewish are stated here. 1) is that "God promised the land" to them. That's pretty far fetched from where I'm sitting to use your own religion as justification for kicking other people off the land.

2) is probably the only one with any real substance here. That they have been a presence in the land, along with the Muslims, means that both should share the land, rather than trying to claim it all.

I'm going to try really hard to stay on topic here. I think you are trying to drag it off course because you can't actually find any instances of Israel deliberately destroying Arab Palestinian culture and yet somehow want to demonize Israel anyway.

First, be clear -- I reject the premise of #1, listed above. Religion, as important as it is to the people who practice it (including me), should never be the basis of political decisions. I also reject #4. The rights and claims of the Jewish people have nothing to do with the result of any conflict. #3 is simply the international acknowledgement of the source of Jewish claim. It is not the actual source.

And here is where we come back to the topic. The Jewish claim to the territory as a homeland for the Jewish people is based on their ancestral, historical, ethnic and religious indigeneity. The Jewish people originated on that land, pre-conquest and pre-invasion. Their history in that land goes back thousands of years. It manifests in their language, their laws, their myths, the clothing they wear, the foods they eat, the holidays they celebrate. The evidence is wide and deep and varied and there can be absolutely no question of the veracity of this.

And yet the Arabs not only question the veracity of this -- they actively attempt to erase the history of the Jewish people. This is a strategy is employed, not to have the Arab narrative amplified but to have the Jewish narrative SILENCED. Irrevocably. If there is no evidence that the Jewish people's homeland is in this place, if there is only evidence of Arab occupation, then the Jewish people can be disappeared. And its working. UNESCO has erased the Jewish connection to places like Jerusalem's Old City and the Temple Mount and to Hevron.

On you last paragraph....I certainly see that played out here in this forum as well.

 

[Shusha]

But Team Israel IS in the sense they are denying the Palestinians right to their own culture (referring to them as just Arabs) and narrative (Nakbah). As Team Palestine is doing to the Jews - marginalize, minimalize, and erase.

I don't think there is an equivalence here in the larger context. There is a very great deal of difference, as you point out below, between minimizing Arab Palestinian culture as a distinct culture (which we definitely do) and deliberately, physically, erasing a culture or usurping it entirely.

The destruction of artifacts though is beyond contempt. Anothet reason why those places should be under Israeli control I think. Their leadership has shown a willingness and ability to preserve and understand the history and archeology of the region. It is irreplaceable.

We agree.

 

[Coyote]

Well, yes, how they are handled matters. The problem in that area right now is that the right wing on both sides is using conflict to enhance their own positions.

What I meant by "it doesn't matter" is that the REALITY isn't important, it's the narrative that each side is producing that is important, that is what is pushing this whole thing, rather than the reality of whether this cultural site is "destroyed" or whatever. If the Palestinian people BELIEVE something has happened, or the Israeli people BELIEVE something has happened, then this is more important than whether it actually happened or not.

I actually hear what you are saying. However, the Arabs (and not just the Palestinians) are using the actual destruction of history as evidence that the Jewish people don't have a history in that land. They are creating a false reality, a false historical record, to erase the Jewish people. Deliberately. Intentionally. This is VASTLY different than Israel being insensitive about a Muslim burial ground.

Well, both sides are creating a false narrative.

Israel is pushing conflict for a reason, and that reason is an excuse to push the boundaries of the state. Without conflict they could never get the support to do this.

There are different ways to try and do this, they're all bad, but this doesn't mean that Israel is any less guilty of trying to destroy culture in order to try and control the narrative.

But Israel is NOT destroying culture to control the narrative.

Israel as victor over the Palestinians controls the narrative. That means they can define who is and who isn't a people or that events like Nakbah are fictional. They are not destroying or altering artifacts however. And thst is a difference.

 

[Shusha]

On you last paragraph....I certainly see that played out here in this forum as well.

Sure. It crops up in a lot of arguments -- there is no proof that the Temple really existed, the Hebrew language is dead, the were hardly any Jews here, the Jews were destroyed long ago, there are very few "real" Jews left, Zionists are not Jews, Jews are Europeans, Judaism is just a religion, JC was a Palestinian, etc, etc, etc.

This is why I say that there is no equivalence between the two arguments. Yes, it is not cool that some on Team Israel are in denial about the existence of a distinct Palestinian culture and use it to deny them rights, but its not the same in scope.