The Right Not To Be Offended

[California Girl]

On campus is not the same thing as in the classroom.

Maybe you need a brain transplant, PC.

Clean off those specs:
"1. From the link:
"Student Ethel Borel-Donohue, who never disrupted class with her literature, came to the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) for help.""

I see that explaining this complex situation to you would be like putting an elevator in an out-house.

From Ravi's link, the accusation is that she did distribute in class. We need clarification as to who needs whose specs cleaned, don't you think?

 

[PoliticalChic]

On campus is not the same thing as in the classroom.

Maybe you need a brain transplant, PC.

Clean off those specs:
"1. From the link:
"Student Ethel Borel-Donohue, who never disrupted class with her literature, came to the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) for help.""

I see that explaining this complex situation to you would be like putting an elevator in an out-house.

She handed them out in class.

btw, the court case linked at your link, in its conclusion stated:

Nothing in this decision is intended to prevent the University from implementing carefully drawn regulations which allow plaintiffs' fair and reasonable access to all significant points of distribution to all substantial areas of the campus population and which will protect the rights of students and faculty to move freely on campus.

So you're going to sit there and try to convince everyone that schools have no right to regulate what goes on in their classrooms and in fact anything goes? You'd be perfectly happy to see planned parenthood brochures and/or korans left on chairs in classrooms?

1. Let's cut right to the chase, here. The depth of your erroneous thinking can be plumbed in this one sentence:
" You'd be perfectly happy to see planned parenthood brochures and/or korans left on chairs in classrooms?"

Yes.

Perfectly. And would be just as able to smile civiliy, or argue intellectually, as my mood suited.

Don't you understand....conservatives don't insist, require or even desire unanimity of thinking, unlike you folks on the Left.

We don't want to silence those who don't agree with us, rather we embrace variety rather than 'equality.'


2. And, -there is no sarcasm in the following- I must tell you how much I appreciate posts by folks like you, or Midcan, or the other doctrinaire liberals/progressives/whatever for without those willing and able to propound said point of view, this board would be hideously boring.

Your tenets are based on feeling and emotion, and a desire to quash the oppositon. I find it far easier to champion logic and liberty, and, it seems to me that conservative ideas will always win in the marketplace of ideas.

So, Bravo!

 

[California Girl]

Clean off those specs:
"1. From the link:
"Student Ethel Borel-Donohue, who never disrupted class with her literature, came to the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) for help.""

I see that explaining this complex situation to you would be like putting an elevator in an out-house.

She handed them out in class.

btw, the court case linked at your link, in its conclusion stated:

Nothing in this decision is intended to prevent the University from implementing carefully drawn regulations which allow plaintiffs' fair and reasonable access to all significant points of distribution to all substantial areas of the campus population and which will protect the rights of students and faculty to move freely on campus.

So you're going to sit there and try to convince everyone that schools have no right to regulate what goes on in their classrooms and in fact anything goes? You'd be perfectly happy to see planned parenthood brochures and/or korans left on chairs in classrooms?

1. Let's cut right to the chase, here. The depth of your erroneous thinking can be plumbed in this one sentence:
" You'd be perfectly happy to see planned parenthood brochures and/or korans left on chairs in classrooms?"

Yes.

Perfectly. And would be just as able to smile civiliy, or argue intellectually, as my mood suited.

Don't you understand....conservatives don't insist, require or even desire unanimity of thinking, unlike you folks on the Left.

We don't want to silence those who don't agree with us, rather we embrace variety rather than 'equality.'


2. And, -there is no sarcasm in the following- I must tell you how much I appreciate posts by folks like you, or Midcan, or the other doctrinaire liberals/progressives/whatever for without those willing and able to propound said point of view, this board would be hideously boring.

Your tenets are based on feeling and emotion, and a desire to quash the oppositon. I find it far easier to champion logic and liberty, and, it seems to me that conservative ideas will always win in the marketplace of ideas.

So, Bravo!

I would disagree. Classrooms are not the place for off curriculum literature. Outside class, no problem... inside class, nope. They are there to learn whatever subject they're in class for..... nothing else.

Keep it outside the classroom. If, as Ravi's link says, she was handing out literature in class or putting it on chairs in classrooms, that is wrong. If it was outside the classroom, that's a different ballgame.

 

[Ravi]

Clean off those specs:
"1. From the link:
"Student Ethel Borel-Donohue, who never disrupted class with her literature, came to the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) for help.""

I see that explaining this complex situation to you would be like putting an elevator in an out-house.

She handed them out in class.

btw, the court case linked at your link, in its conclusion stated:

Nothing in this decision is intended to prevent the University from implementing carefully drawn regulations which allow plaintiffs' fair and reasonable access to all significant points of distribution to all substantial areas of the campus population and which will protect the rights of students and faculty to move freely on campus.

So you're going to sit there and try to convince everyone that schools have no right to regulate what goes on in their classrooms and in fact anything goes? You'd be perfectly happy to see planned parenthood brochures and/or korans left on chairs in classrooms?

1. Let's cut right to the chase, here. The depth of your erroneous thinking can be plumbed in this one sentence:
" You'd be perfectly happy to see planned parenthood brochures and/or korans left on chairs in classrooms?"

Yes.

Perfectly. And would be just as able to smile civiliy, or argue intellectually, as my mood suited.

Don't you understand....conservatives don't insist, require or even desire unanimity of thinking, unlike you folks on the Left.

We don't want to silence those who don't agree with us, rather we embrace variety rather than 'equality.'


2. And, -there is no sarcasm in the following- I must tell you how much I appreciate posts by folks like you, or Midcan, or the other doctrinaire liberals/progressives/whatever for without those willing and able to propound said point of view, this board would be hideously boring.

Your tenets are based on feeling and emotion, and a desire to quash the oppositon. I find it far easier to champion logic and liberty, and, it seems to me that conservative ideas will always win in the marketplace of ideas.

So, Bravo!

This saddens me. I would not like any of it left on chairs in classrooms. Classrooms have a specific purpose and distributing political literature is not one of those purposes.

If the school wants it your way, fine. But no one has the right to do it if the school says no...and again, this isn't a freedom of speech issue.

 

[California Girl]

She handed them out in class.

btw, the court case linked at your link, in its conclusion stated:

So you're going to sit there and try to convince everyone that schools have no right to regulate what goes on in their classrooms and in fact anything goes? You'd be perfectly happy to see planned parenthood brochures and/or korans left on chairs in classrooms?

1. Let's cut right to the chase, here. The depth of your erroneous thinking can be plumbed in this one sentence:
" You'd be perfectly happy to see planned parenthood brochures and/or korans left on chairs in classrooms?"

Yes.

Perfectly. And would be just as able to smile civiliy, or argue intellectually, as my mood suited.

Don't you understand....conservatives don't insist, require or even desire unanimity of thinking, unlike you folks on the Left.

We don't want to silence those who don't agree with us, rather we embrace variety rather than 'equality.'


2. And, -there is no sarcasm in the following- I must tell you how much I appreciate posts by folks like you, or Midcan, or the other doctrinaire liberals/progressives/whatever for without those willing and able to propound said point of view, this board would be hideously boring.

Your tenets are based on feeling and emotion, and a desire to quash the oppositon. I find it far easier to champion logic and liberty, and, it seems to me that conservative ideas will always win in the marketplace of ideas.

So, Bravo!

This saddens me. I would not like any of it left on chairs in classrooms. Classrooms have a specific purpose and distributing political literature is not one of those purposes.

If the school wants it your way, fine. But no one has the right to do it if the school says no...and again, this isn't a freedom of speech issue.

Well, call me a liberal.... I agree with Ravi.

 

[PoliticalChic]

On campus is not the same thing as in the classroom.

Maybe you need a brain transplant, PC.

Clean off those specs:
"1. From the link:
"Student Ethel Borel-Donohue, who never disrupted class with her literature, came to the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) for help.""

I see that explaining this complex situation to you would be like putting an elevator in an out-house.

From Ravi's link, the accusation is that she did distribute in class. We need clarification as to who needs whose specs cleaned, don't you think?

Actually, no.

We don't know whether or not she placed same before class, but we do know that she "never disrupted" class.

Ravi believes that the existence of said literature in the classroom is the infraction....I don't.
The ACLU has often said that the response to bad speech should be good speech...
by extension, shouldn't a student who objects to the literature simply hand the young lady literature on the other side?

The point of the thread is that some folks will always find a way to be offended....but, so what? That much is their right.

 

[High_Gravity]

How come universities have become so intolerant?

 

[Valerie]

Where there's FIRE there's smoke but not necessarily fire... The school is still in the process of defending their actions based on their well defined school policy.

Ohio Assistant Attorney General and General Counsel Lauren M. Ross replied to FIRE’s letter on March 16. Apparently in defense of SCC’s unlawful action, Ross invoked a policy at SCC that bans all distribution of literature in “working areas” including “classrooms, laboratories, lecture halls, gymnasiums, libraries, offices, work stations, conference rooms, and corridors leading directly thereto which are an integral part of the work areas.” SCC’s Student Code of Conduct even more broadly bans “distribution … of materials on Sinclair owned or controlled property,” with the single exception of “recognized student organizations after registering with the appropriate college official.”

FIRE wrote Johnson a second letter on March 23, copying Ohio Governor John R. Kasich and Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine. FIRE asked Johnson to bring SCC’s policies into compliance with the First Amendment and to reply by March 30, but SCC has not responded.

Ohio College Prohibits Student from Peacefully Distributing Literature on Abortion, Birth Control | The Moral Liberal

 

[PoliticalChic]

She handed them out in class.

btw, the court case linked at your link, in its conclusion stated:

So you're going to sit there and try to convince everyone that schools have no right to regulate what goes on in their classrooms and in fact anything goes? You'd be perfectly happy to see planned parenthood brochures and/or korans left on chairs in classrooms?

1. Let's cut right to the chase, here. The depth of your erroneous thinking can be plumbed in this one sentence:
" You'd be perfectly happy to see planned parenthood brochures and/or korans left on chairs in classrooms?"

Yes.

Perfectly. And would be just as able to smile civiliy, or argue intellectually, as my mood suited.

Don't you understand....conservatives don't insist, require or even desire unanimity of thinking, unlike you folks on the Left.

We don't want to silence those who don't agree with us, rather we embrace variety rather than 'equality.'


2. And, -there is no sarcasm in the following- I must tell you how much I appreciate posts by folks like you, or Midcan, or the other doctrinaire liberals/progressives/whatever for without those willing and able to propound said point of view, this board would be hideously boring.

Your tenets are based on feeling and emotion, and a desire to quash the oppositon. I find it far easier to champion logic and liberty, and, it seems to me that conservative ideas will always win in the marketplace of ideas.

So, Bravo!

I would disagree. Classrooms are not the place for off curriculum literature. Outside class, no problem... inside class, nope. They are there to learn whatever subject they're in class for..... nothing else.

Keep it outside the classroom. If, as Ravi's link says, she was handing out literature in class or putting it on chairs in classrooms, that is wrong. If it was outside the classroom, that's a different ballgame.

"Classrooms are not the place for off curriculum literature."

Of course they are.

The mandate of a university is to generate thinking....


Further, literature of all kinds is handed out. Haven't you ever been in lecture hall where one group or another gave out flyers for a rally or a party or a sorority function....

I have.

Read them, or throw them away....your choice.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Where there's FIRE there's smoke but not necessarily fire... The school is still in the process of defending their actions based on their well defined school policy.

Ohio Assistant Attorney General and General Counsel Lauren M. Ross replied to FIRE’s letter on March 16. Apparently in defense of SCC’s unlawful action, Ross invoked a policy at SCC that bans all distribution of literature in “working areas” including “classrooms, laboratories, lecture halls, gymnasiums, libraries, offices, work stations, conference rooms, and corridors leading directly thereto which are an integral part of the work areas.” SCC’s Student Code of Conduct even more broadly bans “distribution … of materials on Sinclair owned or controlled property,” with the single exception of “recognized student organizations after registering with the appropriate college official.”

FIRE wrote Johnson a second letter on March 23, copying Ohio Governor John R. Kasich and Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine. FIRE asked Johnson to bring SCC’s policies into compliance with the First Amendment and to reply by March 30, but SCC has not responded.

Ohio College Prohibits Student from Peacefully Distributing Literature on Abortion, Birth Control | The Moral Liberal

This quote moves the discussion forward!

"... bans all distribution of literature in..."

1. If this is the case, then the school has a clear position, it will be interesting to see if they actually do so, or if the rule is used in a capricious manner.

2. It also remains to be seen if the school can bar the student's right, or if the decison hinges on whether or not the 'never disrupted' phrase was purposely used.

"Students do not, the Court tells us in Tinker vs. Des Moines, "shed their constitutional rights when they enter the schoolhouse door." But it is also the case that school administrators have a far greater ability to restrict the speech of their students than the government has to restrict the speech of the general public. Student speech cases require a balancing of the legitimate educational objectives and need for school discipline of administrators against the First Amendment values served by extending speech rights of students.

In Tinker, perhaps the best known of the Court's student speech cases, the Court found that the First Amendment protected the right of high school students to wear black armbands in a public high school, as a form of protest against the Viet Nam War. The Court ruled that this symbolic speech--"closely akin to pure speech"--could only be prohibited by school administrators if they could show that it would cause a substantial disruption of the school's educational mission."

Papish considered the decision of the University of Missouri to expel a journalism student who distributed a controversial leaflet (including four-letter words and a cartoon showing the Statue of Liberty being raped) on campus. The Court held the expulsion violated Papish's First Amendment rights. "

Speech Rights of Public School Students

 

[Blagger]

Mind if I cut in?

Thanks.

PoliticalChic.

Hello, we meet at last. Although I agree with you, in the sense that in their very nature colleges, universities and similar places of higher learning that encourage outside thinking to stimulate and inject criticism should welcome debate in all forms, no matter how controversial, the legal fact remains that the building belongs to the governing board and they have the final say on what's classed acceptable behaviour within the property they own or are charged with overseeing/administering. I mean, even though it's classed as free speech, I can't see campus's in this age of kneejerk litigation allowing Neo Nazi properganda to be distributed on campus.

Ravi, hello, again.

This isn't a pre-school or infant environment where children that are of an age where politics has no business are being subjected to political propaganda. In short, they aren't children who need to be protected from political propaganda. Anyone knows that when you put yourself in an institute of higher learning, you're, at some point, going to rub sholders with political activists who will thrust political pamphlets/material under your nose. To think otherwise would be dangerously naive.

 

[Ravi]

Mind if I cut in?

Thanks.

PoliticalChic.

Hello, we meet at last. Although I agree with you, in the sense that in their very nature colleges, universities and similar places of higher learning that encourage outside thinking to stimulate and inject criticism should welcome debate in all forms, no matter how controversial, the legal fact remains that the building belongs to the governing board and they have the final say on what's classed acceptable behaviour within the property they own or are charged with overseeing/administering. I mean, even though it's classed as free speech, I can't see campus's in this age of kneejerk litigation allowing Neo Nazi properganda to be distributed on campus.

Ravi, hello, again.

This isn't a pre-school or infant environment where children that are of an age where politics has no business are being subjected to political propaganda. In short, they aren't children who need to be protected from political propaganda. Anyone knows that when you put yourself in an institute of higher learning, you're, at some point, going to rub sholders with political activists who will thrust political pamphlets/material under your nose. To think otherwise would be dangerously naive.

Again, inside the classroom should be off limits if the school deems it off limits. Walking through campus, at the student activities building, etc...all fine, imo. It has nothing to do with "protecting" students from differing views and has everything to do with actually learning the subject you've paid to be taught.

 

[PoliticalChic]

How come universities have become so intolerant?

Excellent query, Grav!

1. Todd Gitlin, former president of SDS, said the Left began “marching on the English Department while the Right took the White House.” Gitlin, “Twilight of Common Dreams: Why America is Wracked by Culture Wars,” p. 147

2. Liberal democrats have always emphasized free speech. However, as the more than three hundred speech codes on North American campuses indicate, cultural democrats do not accept this traditional liberal ideal of free expression. Instead, they work to restrict speech that, as they see it, "promotes" racism and sexism, or creates a "hostile environment" for "diversity."

And this, from "The World Turned Upside Down," by Melanie Philips:

Liberals stamp out dissent by social and professional ostracism and legal discrimination. This is the modern version of methods used by medieval Christianity: a secular Inquisition.

a. Intelligentsia as grand inquisitors: in the media, universities, the law, political and professional groups. The dominating ideologies include anti-capitalism, feminism, multiculturalism, and environmentalism. They form the unchallengeable orthodoxy in academia. No challenges or deviations are permitted, and anyone who does not share these values is defined as extreme.

b. These ideologies have as their common theme the overturning of the established order of the West.

c. How ironic that intellectual liberty is assaulted within the institutions of reason.

 

[syrenn]

On campus is not the same thing as in the classroom.

Maybe you need a brain transplant, PC.

Clean off those specs:
"1. From the link:
"Student Ethel Borel-Donohue, who never disrupted class with her literature, came to the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) for help.""

I see that explaining this complex situation to you would be like putting an elevator in an out-house.

She handed them out in class.

btw, the court case linked at your link, in its conclusion stated:

Nothing in this decision is intended to prevent the University from implementing carefully drawn regulations which allow plaintiffs' fair and reasonable access to all significant points of distribution to all substantial areas of the campus population and which will protect the rights of students and faculty to move freely on campus.

So you're going to sit there and try to convince everyone that schools have no right to regulate what goes on in their classrooms and in fact anything goes? You'd be perfectly happy to see planned parenthood brochures and/or korans left on chairs in classrooms?

They put bibles in every hotel room.





just saying

 

[High_Gravity]

How come universities have become so intolerant?

Excellent query, Grav!

1. Todd Gitlin, former president of SDS, said the Left began “marching on the English Department while the Right took the White House.” Gitlin, “Twilight of Common Dreams: Why America is Wracked by Culture Wars,” p. 147

2. Liberal democrats have always emphasized free speech. However, as the more than three hundred speech codes on North American campuses indicate, cultural democrats do not accept this traditional liberal ideal of free expression. Instead, they work to restrict speech that, as they see it, "promotes" racism and sexism, or creates a "hostile environment" for "diversity."

And this, from "The World Turned Upside Down," by Melanie Philips:

Liberals stamp out dissent by social and professional ostracism and legal discrimination. This is the modern version of methods used by medieval Christianity: a secular Inquisition.

a. Intelligentsia as grand inquisitors: in the media, universities, the law, political and professional groups. The dominating ideologies include anti-capitalism, feminism, multiculturalism, and environmentalism. They form the unchallengeable orthodoxy in academia. No challenges or deviations are permitted, and anyone who does not share these values is defined as extreme.

b. These ideologies have as their common theme the overturning of the established order of the West.

c. How ironic that intellectual liberty is assaulted within the institutions of reason.

I always thought universities were supposed to be open to encourage free thinking but I see alot of intolerance and restriction, like Harvard forbidding Military recruiters from being on campus.

 

[dilloduck]

How come universities have become so intolerant?

Excellent query, Grav!

1. Todd Gitlin, former president of SDS, said the Left began “marching on the English Department while the Right took the White House.” Gitlin, “Twilight of Common Dreams: Why America is Wracked by Culture Wars,” p. 147

2. Liberal democrats have always emphasized free speech. However, as the more than three hundred speech codes on North American campuses indicate, cultural democrats do not accept this traditional liberal ideal of free expression. Instead, they work to restrict speech that, as they see it, "promotes" racism and sexism, or creates a "hostile environment" for "diversity."

And this, from "The World Turned Upside Down," by Melanie Philips:

Liberals stamp out dissent by social and professional ostracism and legal discrimination. This is the modern version of methods used by medieval Christianity: a secular Inquisition.

a. Intelligentsia as grand inquisitors: in the media, universities, the law, political and professional groups. The dominating ideologies include anti-capitalism, feminism, multiculturalism, and environmentalism. They form the unchallengeable orthodoxy in academia. No challenges or deviations are permitted, and anyone who does not share these values is defined as extreme.

b. These ideologies have as their common theme the overturning of the established order of the West.

c. How ironic that intellectual liberty is assaulted within the institutions of reason.

Might as well catch em there while they are naive and gullible. Once they get smart they figure out the inherent hoax of liberalism. They are intolerant of anyone who isn't them.

 

[Anguille]

Sounds like this student was littering. So sue me but litterbugs offend me. I'm glad we have laws against littering.

 

[Anguille]

Clean off those specs:
"1. From the link:
"Student Ethel Borel-Donohue, who never disrupted class with her literature, came to the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) for help.""

I see that explaining this complex situation to you would be like putting an elevator in an out-house.

She handed them out in class.

btw, the court case linked at your link, in its conclusion stated:

Nothing in this decision is intended to prevent the University from implementing carefully drawn regulations which allow plaintiffs' fair and reasonable access to all significant points of distribution to all substantial areas of the campus population and which will protect the rights of students and faculty to move freely on campus.

So you're going to sit there and try to convince everyone that schools have no right to regulate what goes on in their classrooms and in fact anything goes? You'd be perfectly happy to see planned parenthood brochures and/or korans left on chairs in classrooms?

They put bibles in every hotel room.





just saying

Actually, they don't.

 

[Ravi]

Clean off those specs:
"1. From the link:
"Student Ethel Borel-Donohue, who never disrupted class with her literature, came to the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) for help.""

I see that explaining this complex situation to you would be like putting an elevator in an out-house.

She handed them out in class.

btw, the court case linked at your link, in its conclusion stated:

Nothing in this decision is intended to prevent the University from implementing carefully drawn regulations which allow plaintiffs' fair and reasonable access to all significant points of distribution to all substantial areas of the campus population and which will protect the rights of students and faculty to move freely on campus.

So you're going to sit there and try to convince everyone that schools have no right to regulate what goes on in their classrooms and in fact anything goes? You'd be perfectly happy to see planned parenthood brochures and/or korans left on chairs in classrooms?

They put bibles in every hotel room.





just saying

With the hotels permission. Not seeing your point.

 

[syrenn]

She handed them out in class.

btw, the court case linked at your link, in its conclusion stated:

So you're going to sit there and try to convince everyone that schools have no right to regulate what goes on in their classrooms and in fact anything goes? You'd be perfectly happy to see planned parenthood brochures and/or korans left on chairs in classrooms?

They put bibles in every hotel room.





just saying

Actually, they don't.

How much do you travel around the country? I sure do travel and am platinum member in a good deal of hotel chains. In EVERY room i stay there is a bible in the desk or in the night stand. How do i know this? Because it check my rooms before i unpack.

So as far as i can tell... yes they do put a bible in every room.


So how is that not being offensive? It is the same principal as what is being debated here. It too can be construed as littering.