The Religion of Government

[☭proletarian☭]

"1. Death to the gays." There are so few who believe this way that I'd place them in a category of hell bound radicals who don't know God.

pssst.... your God commands death for homosexuals...

"2. Strip women of rights." I don't know any group of Christians who want to take women's rights away from them.

Conservative Christians who want to return to biblical law....

"4. Force religion into public schools." Allow religion in public schools. The Bible was the main textbook in America's first schools.

And compare the social status of minorities then to the modern era, where you people are told STFU.

"8. Make Christianity the "National Religion". Mainstream Christians have no desirt for a theocracy, or a national religion. Just the religious freedom America has had for 200+ years. That means all religions.

Except Islam

 

[☭proletarian☭]

People do have an odd infatuation with government. People have a faith that if we have a single group of people pillaging and threatening everyone within a given territory the world will be a better place. They believe that good must be complemented with evil to prevent evil. I know it makes no sense but that's why it's faith without reason.

People want to be ruled. They don't want liberty. It is far easier to let a few men or a single god make all their decisions for them.

Speak for yourself, tovarich.

When men cannot find other men to rule over them, and give them rules, they turn to imaginary gods and the priests who claim to speak for them, so that they may be ruled over and be told how to live and what to do. This may be the god of Abraham or the State itself; there is no difference between the statist and the religious zealot in their desire to surrender their free will and own thought to authority. Those who desire to govern their own actions and trust in their own selves to determine what they should do and how they should live are called libertines and sinners.

 

[jeffrockit]

Too late, the religious movement started about 30 years ago. They have already subverted an entire political party.

They have spread their fear so that many are afraid of this "huge government takeover".

The people we have to fear are actually the political party that is spreading this anti government sentiment. THEY are the ones who want to take over. If they can convince the population to FEAR the existing government, then they can step in and TAKE OVER. The believe people will turn from and reject the US government and turn towards them as the "saviours" of American freedom.

And what will will this freedom look like? Read between the lines of the Republican platform and carry their policies to the logical conclusion.

That conclusion being:

1. Death to the gays.

2. Strip women of rights.

3. Return to Jim Crow laws.

4. Force religion into public schools.

5. End Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.

6. Remove all regulations concerning clean air and clean water.

7. War.

8. Make Christianity the "National Religion".

And there is plenty more where that came from.

Read their plan:

The Wedge Strategy - Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture

Nice list of fear you are spreading. Seems as though you are doing the same thing you accuse the Religious movement of.

Fear is spewing things like:

Paling around with terrorists
Death Panels
Kill Grandma
Rationing healthcare
You are with us or with the terrorists
Government will take over you life
Obama wants to teach sex to pre schoolers

There are no rational facts behind any of this stuff. Just endlessly repeating it, doesn't make it rational.

Now I can go through the list I made and make a case for each one. Start with the gays. You have religious leaders suggesting 9/11 happened because of gays and feminists. Carry that to the extreme. If someone was responsible for bringing down two buildings and killing thousands, shouldn't they be punished? Besides, the Bible says:
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."
Every bit of hatred directed toward the gays from the right is inspired by the Bible.

If the right could have their way with this country, you wouldn't recognize it as the United States. Read the "Wedge Strategy". It's not like they have been "quiet". During the last 30 years, the right has been out there and have told us EXACTLY what they want to do.

you are dealing with the fringe elements. The quote about 9/11 and gays did not come from a religious leader. It came from a far religious right fanatic that does not in any way follow the teaching's of Christ. Anyone can pull quotes from kooks and attach them to whatever suits their agenda.
You are pulling from Old Testament verses that are pre Jesus. Those are not his teachings. Again, you are using the same fear tactics you accuse the right of doing. Great in firing up you cause but not so great when you do a little study into the quotes and context.
During the last 30 years the left have done the same. The fringes on both sides are not good for this country.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

You are pulling from Old Testament verses that are pre Jesus. Those are not his teachings.

Christ recognized the authority of the law. Jesus respected the Law of Moses. Why one asked Jesus "what shall I do to inherit eternal life" Jesus replied, "What is written in the law? How readest thou?" (Lk. 10: 25, 26). When the man correctly answered by alluding to the Ten Commandments, Jesus said "Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (vs. 27, 28). Jesus recognized the resident authority of the Hebrew scriptures when he quoted them to defeat the Tempter (Matt. 4, 7, 10, Deut. 8: 3; Ps. 91: 11, 12; Deut. 6: 16).

Christ taught others to keep the law. As seen, Jesus recognized the authority of the law in his life and taught others to keep the law (Lk. 10: 25-28). Jesus instructed his disciples to obey the law (Matt. 23: 2, 3). Christ defended the law and severely condemned those who perverted the Hebrew scripture (Mk. 7: 7-13; Matt. 23: 16-22).

“Whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 5:19).

“For truly, I say to you, till HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until it is accomplished”

Have heaven and earth passed away?

 

[Christopher]

You are pulling from Old Testament verses that are pre Jesus. Those are not his teachings.

Christ recognized the authority of the law. Jesus respected the Law of Moses. Why one asked Jesus "what shall I do to inherit eternal life" Jesus replied, "What is written in the law? How readest thou?" (Lk. 10: 25, 26). When the man correctly answered by alluding to the Ten Commandments, Jesus said "Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (vs. 27, 28). Jesus recognized the resident authority of the Hebrew scriptures when he quoted them to defeat the Tempter (Matt. 4, 7, 10, Deut. 8: 3; Ps. 91: 11, 12; Deut. 6: 16).

Christ taught others to keep the law. As seen, Jesus recognized the authority of the law in his life and taught others to keep the law (Lk. 10: 25-28). Jesus instructed his disciples to obey the law (Matt. 23: 2, 3). Christ defended the law and severely condemned those who perverted the Hebrew scripture (Mk. 7: 7-13; Matt. 23: 16-22).

“Whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 5:19).

“For truly, I say to you, till HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until it is accomplished”

Have heaven and earth passed away?

Here is the context from the KJV of the Bible, from Matthew 5:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You left out verse 17 which provides the context. This is what Jesus was talking about, that He came to fulfill the law. He established a “higher” law for people to live by.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Has heaven and Earth passed away? has all the prophecy been fulfilled?

Did I miss Revelation and the Great Tribulation? Did Jesus come back? Did Nixon put him in jail?

 

[Christopher]

Has heaven and Earth passed away? has all the prophecy been fulfilled?

Did I miss Revelation and the Great Tribulation? Did Jesus come back? Did Nixon put him in jail?

Jesus fulfilled the law through His sacrifice. With that he created a higher law for us to live by. What do you not understand about that and why are you asking new questions?

You have probably missed many things about the Bible if you have not really read it or studied it.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

So God's not perfect and neither is his law?

Psalms 19:7​

The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.


Only Satan would destroy God's perfect law or inspire men to call God's perfect law 'weak and useless' (Hebrews 17).
​

 

[Christopher]

So God's not perfect and neither is his law?

Psalms 19:7​

The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.


Only Satan would destroy God's perfect law or inspire men to call God's perfect law 'weak and useless' (Hebrews 17).
​

God’s plan to provide us with a Savior has always been perfect. That the Savior would fulfill the law was part of the plan. It was the punishments for the law that were fulfilled. No longer was it an “eye for an eye”, etc. Once the Savior came into the world and fulfilled the law, He gave us a “new commandment”, to “love one another”.

Giving us higher laws to live by as we become ready to live them is a perfect plan for helping imperfect people strive to become more perfect. The basic laws, such as the 10 commandments, remain the same. Christ established an even higher law to this, such as regarding adultery. Christ said that not only is committing adultery a sin, but that anyone who thinks about adultery in their heart has committed sin. That is what is meant by a “higher” law.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

The basic laws, such as the 10 commandments, remain the same.

The 10C are part of the Old Law. Either the Old Law applies or it does not. It is a package deal.

 

[Christopher]

The basic laws, such as the 10 commandments, remain the same.

The 10C are part of the Old Law. Either the Old Law applies or it does not. It is a package deal.

Perhaps you need to read what I posted again. Here is what I said as well:

"It was the punishments for the law that were fulfilled."

 

[☭proletarian☭]

The basic laws, such as the 10 commandments, remain the same.

The 10C are part of the Old Law. Either the Old Law applies or it does not. It is a package deal.

Perhaps you need to read what I posted again. Here is what I said as well:

"It was the punishments for the law that were fulfilled."

So you admit that your religion is based around avoiding responsibility for your own actions?


How is that morally just?

 

[Christopher]

The 10C are part of the Old Law. Either the Old Law applies or it does not. It is a package deal.

Perhaps you need to read what I posted again. Here is what I said as well:

"It was the punishments for the law that were fulfilled."

So you admit that your religion is based around avoiding responsibility for your own actions?


How is that morally just?

Now you are just making stuff up. We now go through Christ to be forgiven of the things we do wrong since He paid the price for our sins; we still do not avoid any responsibility for our actions.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Now you are just making stuff up

Someone paying for your crimes is avoiding responsibility for your own actions.

He paid the price for our sins

Is sending you to prison for my crimes just?

we still do not avoid any responsibility for our actions.

Yes, you do. You do not pay for your own transgressions- that's what the Jesus character promises. Instead, God, kills himself to pay himself the debt you owe him because you failed in Eden because God willed that you would sin.

A Christian is one who reads the bible. An anti-Christians one who understands it.

 

[Christopher]

Someone paying for your crimes is avoiding responsibility for your own actions.

You were trying to make up that I was admitting to something. You were creating a false argument. You do not understand what Christ did for us. He willingly suffered for our sins, yet did not relieve us from doing nothing to obtain forgiveness. I will explain more below, since you seem to lack understanding.

Is sending you to prison for my crimes just?

No, it would not be just; however, that is not exactly the same as what Christ did and is not the same scenario. Christ offered Himself, He willingly suffered for our sins. Christ’s mercy satisfies the laws of justice. We still have to pay for the crimes we commit, in a different way, with Christ as our mediator. We must make restitution if necessary, we must serve our own jail time if necessary, we must come to Christ in humility, we must truly be sorry and repentant, we must commit to doing better and honestly strive to do so, we must commit to following Him and His commandments. This is what I would call being on good behavior. So, is it just when someone gets out of prison early because of good behavior? I think so.

Yes, you do. You do not pay for your own transgressions- that's what the Jesus character promises. Instead, God, kills himself to pay himself the debt you owe him because you failed in Eden because God willed that you would sin.

No, we are responsible for our own sins and not for what Adam and Eve did. The real suffering for our sins occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus suffered to overcome spiritual death (sin); He died so that He could overcome physical death. Again, we must repent through Christ and do all the things I listed above for forgiveness. We are not automatically relieved of our sins; we must still take steps to be forgiven. This is still taking responsibility for our actions.

A Christian is one who reads the bible. An anti-Christians one who understands it.

Are you saying that you are an anti-Christian? Are you saying that there are no Christians who understand the Bible? It is obvious that you do not understand the Bible, since you have been caught taking it out of context and you have in another thread provided a Bible passage which said nothing about the point you were trying to make regarding the subject of abortion.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Is sending you to prison for my crimes just?

No, it would not be just; however, that is not exactly the same as what Christ did and is not the same scenario. Christ offered Himself

So letting someone 'take the rap' for someone else's crimes is justice? Just so long as someone is punished, guilt isn't important?

No, we are responsible for our own sins and not for what Adam and Eve did.

The wicked are estranged from the womb
Psalm 58:3

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 51:5

2For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:22

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men
Romans 5:12

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Are you saying that there are no Christians who understand the Bible?

yes. For it is self-contradictory and belief in any of it requires great ignorance of what it says.

 

[antagon]

Are you saying that there are no Christians who understand the Bible?

yes. For it is self-contradictory and belief in any of it requires great ignorance of what it says.

what?

 

[Christopher]

So letting someone 'take the rap' for someone else's crimes is justice? Just so long as someone is punished, guilt isn't important?

You are taking what I said out of context. Read everything I posted again. I have never said guilt isn't important. Please show me where I did.

The wicked are estranged from the womb
Psalm 58:3

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 51:5

2For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:22

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men
Romans 5:12

How do any of these verses disprove the statement I made about each of us being responsible for our own sins and not Adam's or Eve's? Do you believe that we should be held responsible for Adam's sins?

 

[Christopher]

Are you saying that there are no Christians who understand the Bible?

yes. For it is self-contradictory and belief in any of it requires great ignorance of what it says.

So you are saying that all of it is self-contradictory? What are you talking about? There is much that is the same, although I already know there are some issues with different translations. Perhaps you think it is all self-contradictory because you like to take quotes out of context.