The realities of Labor Unions

[zeke]

Don't some of you union hating people EVER get tired of busting the ass of people who go out and work with their hands for a living?

If it ain't the minimum wage workers you all rag on, it's the middle class union folk.

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

I have noticed that you don't specifically mention just what unions are so objectionable. The defense industry is unionized. You all got a problem with those fine weapons and weapon systems those union members build?

How about airplanes? You all have a real problem with those union workers building airplanes and space travel vehicles? Maybe Boeing could fire all those well trained machinists and replace them with some 12 dollar an hour wannabe machinist. Think that would work out well? Hope you all are flying on the airplane the 12 buck an hour guy was working on.

Must be the UAW. That's it isn't it? Those UAW members building those cars that is making the car industry a lot of money right now. Fire em all eh?

Teamsters? Right? It is the Teamsters that are giving you all heartbreak eh? Walk into a truck stop and you all just tell those Teamsters what a piece of shit they are and how they should be driving for a lot less money. See how that works out for you.

So which company has promised to lower its prices when the unions are gone? Any? None you say?

Then what the fuck is wrong with you union haters. Wages have been flat for the working man for some time. The ones doing ok had union jobs.

You fucking union haters just hate the working man. Come on out and admit it. You all wanna put the fucks to the people who work hard and suck the dicks of those you consider your betters. Which is anyone with more money than you. Which is every union member you encounter. Jealous of a union job is what you all are.

 

[rdean]

Weekends without work
All breaks at work, including your lunch breaks
Paid vacation
Family & Medical Leave Act (FMLA)
Sick leave
Social Security
Minimum wage
Civil Rights Act/Title VII - prohibits employer discrimination
8-hour work day
Overtime pay
Child labor laws
Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)
40-hour work week
Workers' compensation (workers' comp)
Unemployment insurance
Pensions
Workplace safety standards and regulations
Employer health care insurance
Collective bargaining rights for employees
Wrongful termination laws
Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 (ADEA)
Whistleblower protection laws
Employee Polygraph Protection Act (EPPA) - prohibits employers from using a lie detector test on an employee
Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)
Compensation increases and evaluations (i.e. raises)
Sexual harassment laws
Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)
Holiday pay
Employer dental, life, and vision insurance
Privacy rights
Pregnancy and parental leave
Military leave
The right to strike
Public education for children
Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 - requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work
Laws ending sweatshops in the United States

Right wingers can't be so stupid they think companies would do these things on their own. Come on. They just can't be. Can they? I refuse to believe they can be that damn dumb.

 

[FA_Q2]

.

It's a 10% IRS penalty, as with all retirement plans (pensions too!) and the 20% figure would be money kept by the custodian for taxes if you don't follow the law and roll it over.

There are also "lifestyle" mutual funds in 401K plans that essentially do the investing for you, lowering risk as you age. These are for the people who freak out at the notion of personal finance and would rather have someone else take care of it for them, because they buy into the notion that someone else is responsible for their money.

Yes, there are all sorts of schemes for Wall Street to separate you from your hard earned money, i'm sure.

I've had quite enough of that, thank you.

Then, for you, there are money market funds required in each 401K that would grow as well as the money you have in your mattress.

Plus matching funds from your employer. Free money!

See? Easy.

I know. Still not good enough.

And by the way, pension funds are invested in -- wait for it -- the stock market. Often in hedge funds, alternatives and other securities which are riskier than traditional mutual funds.



.

And if the company goes belly up...

Where is that pension now? It is rather interesting how people shy away from taking care of their own money because that is 'dangerous' but are perfectly fine allowing someone else to maintain control of the risks over it.

 

[zeke]

Right wingers can't be so stupid they think companies would do these things on their own. Come on. They just can't be. Can they? I refuse to believe they can be that damn dumb.

Why couldn't they believe their own bullshit? You've been here far longer than me. Therefore, you have seen the writings of some of the most stupid people I have had the misfortune of coming across for a longer time than I have.

YOU know they can be as stupid as you fear they are. They demonstrate it every day.

 

[FA_Q2]

.

The topic of labor unions has become politicized, which means it has become dumbed down and turned binary, black & white, either/or.

Just for shits and giggles, here's an idea that no one will like. Yay!

There are essentially four (4) macro elements of labor union contracts:

1. Current pay & benefits
2. Retirement pay & benefits
3. Workplace safety & environment
4. Workplace rules & restrictions

Why don't we:

1. Maintain collective bargaining on current pay & benefits (sure would be nice if business didn't have to pay for health care, but that's another topic)
2. Establish 401K plans instead of budget-busting pensions that cripple businesses in the long run (worker pay could increase, by the way, tax advantage to business)
3. Maintain workplace safety & environment bargaining (essential)
4. Remove bizarre and inefficient workplace rules & restrictions elements (such as this guy can't drive that truck, this guy can't turn that wrench, fucking ridiculous)

Yes, I know, no one would support this, because it would require mature cooperation and honest negotiation, and all those big egos would have to be left at the door.

Better to just fight back & forth on "all or nothing" fantasies that slow down progress.

.

We don't because it is none of our bushiness how a company and its employees set up and maintain their relationship. There is no logical single bullet anyway and I think you are well aware of that.

All unions really need is to revise public sector rules and remove any special protections that are extended to some unions that shouldn't be (such as not allowing anyone that is non-union get a job in that sector) I think we have made good inroads into that concept and hopefully unions will return to their original goals - begin as a unit for the workers.

 

[Mac1958]

.

It's a 10% IRS penalty, as with all retirement plans (pensions too!) and the 20% figure would be money kept by the custodian for taxes if you don't follow the law and roll it over.

There are also "lifestyle" mutual funds in 401K plans that essentially do the investing for you, lowering risk as you age. These are for the people who freak out at the notion of personal finance and would rather have someone else take care of it for them, because they buy into the notion that someone else is responsible for their money.

Yes, there are all sorts of schemes for Wall Street to separate you from your hard earned money, i'm sure.

I've had quite enough of that, thank you.

Then, for you, there are money market funds required in each 401K that would grow as well as the money you have in your mattress.

Plus matching funds from your employer. Free money!

See? Easy.

I know. Still not good enough.

And by the way, pension funds are invested in -- wait for it -- the stock market. Often in hedge funds, alternatives and other securities which are riskier than traditional mutual funds.



.

And if the company goes belly up...

Where is that pension now? It is rather interesting how people shy away from taking care of their own money because that is 'dangerous' but are perfectly fine allowing someone else to maintain control of the risks over it.

Pensions have protections through the PBGC, but 401K plans are set for the individual and easily rolled into an IRA if a company goes belly up.

There are many pensions nationally that are facing severe risks right now, and this could all be fixed my changing them.

.

 

[Iceweasel]

Don't some of you union hating people EVER get tired of busting the ass of people who go out and work with their hands for a living?

If it ain't the minimum wage workers you all rag on, it's the middle class union folk.

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

I have noticed that you don't specifically mention just what unions are so objectionable. The defense industry is unionized. You all got a problem with those fine weapons and weapon systems those union members build?

How about airplanes? You all have a real problem with those union workers building airplanes and space travel vehicles? Maybe Boeing could fire all those well trained machinists and replace them with some 12 dollar an hour wannabe machinist. Think that would work out well? Hope you all are flying on the airplane the 12 buck an hour guy was working on.

Must be the UAW. That's it isn't it? Those UAW members building those cars that is making the car industry a lot of money right now. Fire em all eh?

Teamsters? Right? It is the Teamsters that are giving you all heartbreak eh? Walk into a truck stop and you all just tell those Teamsters what a piece of shit they are and how they should be driving for a lot less money. See how that works out for you.

So which company has promised to lower its prices when the unions are gone? Any? None you say?

Then what the fuck is wrong with you union haters. Wages have been flat for the working man for some time. The ones doing ok had union jobs.

You fucking union haters just hate the working man. Come on out and admit it. You all wanna put the fucks to the people who work hard and suck the dicks of those you consider your betters. Which is anyone with more money than you. Which is every union member you encounter. Jealous of a union job is what you all are.

Whoa, union boy blew a gasket! Lots of businesses do very well and produce fine products without a union. Gosh, how is it even possible? Airline work is shifting to right to work states in the south, thanks to the heavy handedness of unions. Hate didn't make them move and hate isn't what motivates the opposition. Failure to agree with you isn't equivalent to not caring about working folks.

The fact that you think so is a big part of the problem, arrogance and intolerance is par for the course. So much so, unions screw their workers out of an job, so who really has the workers' best interest in mind?

 

[rdean]

Right wingers can't be so stupid they think companies would do these things on their own. Come on. They just can't be. Can they? I refuse to believe they can be that damn dumb.

Why couldn't they believe their own bullshit? You've been here far longer than me. Therefore, you have seen the writings of some of the most stupid people I have had the misfortune of coming across for a longer time than I have.

YOU know they can be as stupid as you fear they are. They demonstrate it every day.

I just don't want to believe such ignorance exists in this country. Every time I think they've hit a new low, they manage to find one even lower.

 

[zeke]

As Stateline has reported, states have offered billions of dollars in tax breaks to lure companies, and many of these incentive packages have extensive worker training provisions.

"Entire workforce training costs are often borne by the state and local governments," CanagaRetna said. Southern states that underwrite aerospace industry training include:


So why is it that you think companies are owed these huge tax incentives and have the states pick up the training costs for the company?

So a right to work state bribes a company to relocate to their state, lowers wages as compared to a union work force (though not by much) and gets the state to pick up the workforce training costs and you just love it.

Like I said before; why you all hate the man and woman who works with their hands for a living?

And why do you want to kiss the ass of successful companies by giving away the states money?

 

[zeke]

I just don't want to believe such ignorance exists in this country. Every time I think they've hit a new low, they manage to find one even lower.

Nice to be an optimist. However the right wingers on here want this country to become involved in a race to the bottom. Instead of the ultra wealthy having 40% of the nations wealth, they want the ultra wealthy to have 80% of the countries wealth. Then I guess the ultra wealthy get it all eventually.

I mean why not. They think the ultra wealthy are treating us so well now, they would do us better if they had more money. They might create a job or two.

 

[Iceweasel]

As Stateline has reported, states have offered billions of dollars in tax breaks to lure companies, and many of these incentive packages have extensive worker training provisions.

"Entire workforce training costs are often borne by the state and local governments," CanagaRetna said. Southern states that underwrite aerospace industry training include:


So why is it that you think companies are owed these huge tax incentives and have the states pick up the training costs for the company?

So a right to work state bribes a company to relocate to their state, lowers wages as compared to a union work force (though not by much) and gets the state to pick up the workforce training costs and you just love it.

Like I said before; why you all hate the man and woman who works with their hands for a living?

And why do you want to kiss the ass of successful companies by giving away the states money?

It isn't rocket science. At least to most of us. States and cities offer tax incentives because....wait for it....the corporation brings jobs. Jobs mean money. Money means taxes. So they actually bring in more income by offering tax breaks and it benefits all. Now how hard was that?

 

[Siete]

These are the facts about labor unions.

Labor Unions are unconstitutional.
It violates the Business owner's right to be safe and secure in his papers and effects regarding his business.

Labor unions are NOT professional associations, professional associations and labor unions are different, in that a labor union seeks to create a monopoly of labor available to the employer, a professional association boosts the reputability of the worker through setting codes and standards, and they offer information about the worker's profession, and offer resources, etc etc..

Labor Unions are often ran by criminals who engage in extortion, loan sharking, aiding and abetting, obstruction of justice, and fraud.


In the long run, labor unions cause poverty, by putting businesses out of business through bankruptcy.

The economic benefits are relatively short term, and even during their time as being an economic benefit, they create economic inequality in favor of the union workers, as opposed to non union workers, and they cause price increases further tipping the scales in favor of Union workers.

This pay increase is due to the fact that artificial labor monopolies have the exact same consequences as any other monopoly, amongst those are price hikes, by the demand of the monopoly.

Union workers create an artificial monopoly, which is STILL a monopoly, and monopolies have never worked for the consumer.
The consumer of labor is the employer and the customers or clients.

While monopolies are not unconstitutional for the consumer, they are against any standard that seeks to create reputability in business, and they ARE unconstitutional for the employer, because it violates the employers right to be secure in his papers and effects regarding his business.

Because the labor monopoly holds the employer hostage to the labor monopoly, it is very hard, if not impossible to fire the workers, or to take disciplinary action against the said worker or workers.

This means that the union worker can behave nearly any way that he so chooses and get away with it.
This inevitably turns the union workers into unruly scum with no discipline whatsoever.

Late check ins, early clock outs, rude and insulting behavior, and piss poor performance, frequent absences from work, dress that is only "moderately appropriate" and certainly not serious for the job, and excuse after excuse for it.

And even off the job... because the union workers have no discipline, their bad habits might roll over into their life away from work, and affect their behavior at home, and in public.

Labor Unions also cause discrimination, by making it mandatory to join the union.


So I would make it illegal under the current laws against extortion, and the Sherman anti trust laws against monopolies, to have labor unions.

funny how you mention how labor unions ... they are exclusively responsible for building Keystone Pipeline ..

copy)) .. Labor Unions are often ran by criminals who engage in extortion, loan sharking, aiding and abetting, obstruction of justice, and fraud.

sounds like something the RW's must really love considering their vast support for building Keystone.

imagine that.

 

[Siete]

Unions slam Obama over Keystone XL delay The Daily Caller

 

[NYcarbineer]

These are the facts about labor unions.

Labor Unions are unconstitutional.
It violates the Business owner's right to be safe and secure in his papers and effects regarding his business.

Labor unions are NOT professional associations, professional associations and labor unions are different, in that a labor union seeks to create a monopoly of labor available to the employer, a professional association boosts the reputability of the worker through setting codes and standards, and they offer information about the worker's profession, and offer resources, etc etc..

Labor Unions are often ran by criminals who engage in extortion, loan sharking, aiding and abetting, obstruction of justice, and fraud.


In the long run, labor unions cause poverty, by putting businesses out of business through bankruptcy.

The economic benefits are relatively short term, and even during their time as being an economic benefit, they create economic inequality in favor of the union workers, as opposed to non union workers, and they cause price increases further tipping the scales in favor of Union workers.

This pay increase is due to the fact that artificial labor monopolies have the exact same consequences as any other monopoly, amongst those are price hikes, by the demand of the monopoly.

Union workers create an artificial monopoly, which is STILL a monopoly, and monopolies have never worked for the consumer.
The consumer of labor is the employer and the customers or clients.

While monopolies are not unconstitutional for the consumer, they are against any standard that seeks to create reputability in business, and they ARE unconstitutional for the employer, because it violates the employers right to be secure in his papers and effects regarding his business.

Because the labor monopoly holds the employer hostage to the labor monopoly, it is very hard, if not impossible to fire the workers, or to take disciplinary action against the said worker or workers.

This means that the union worker can behave nearly any way that he so chooses and get away with it.
This inevitably turns the union workers into unruly scum with no discipline whatsoever.

Late check ins, early clock outs, rude and insulting behavior, and piss poor performance, frequent absences from work, dress that is only "moderately appropriate" and certainly not serious for the job, and excuse after excuse for it.

And even off the job... because the union workers have no discipline, their bad habits might roll over into their life away from work, and affect their behavior at home, and in public.

Labor Unions also cause discrimination, by making it mandatory to join the union.


So I would make it illegal under the current laws against extortion, and the Sherman anti trust laws against monopolies, to have labor unions.

Um, don't you think if labor unions were unconstitutional they would have been ruled unconstitutional at some point in the last 100 years or so?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Unions have already declined for decades, and this is what you've gotten:

 

[zeke]

It isn't rocket science. At least to most of us. States and cities offer tax incentives because....wait for it....the corporation brings jobs. Jobs mean money. Money means taxes. So they actually bring in more income by offering tax breaks and it benefits all. Now how hard was that?

Quite hard for you. Your implication was that companies relocated because they wanted a non unionized work force.

Now you seem to want to indicate that the companies wanted the tax breaks.

Seeing as how the companies pay CLOSE to union scale wages, seems to me that the companies are more interested in the tax breaks.

Which you think has more value to the companies. A small decrease in labor costs OR a complete absence of having to pay taxes?

Maybe the states pick up some tax receipts from the workers.

But the companies get to pick up the tax benefits, the lower wage scale and the state covers the cost of training workers.
And they sure as hell are not lowering the price of their products.

But you think there is a win for the labor force in breaking the unions. What is it?

 

[Wyatt earp]

Don't some of you union hating people EVER get tired of busting the ass of people who go out and work with their hands for a living?

If it ain't the minimum wage workers you all rag on, it's the middle class union folk.

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

I have noticed that you don't specifically mention just what unions are so objectionable. The defense industry is unionized. You all got a problem with those fine weapons and weapon systems those union members build?

How about airplanes? You all have a real problem with those union workers building airplanes and space travel vehicles? Maybe Boeing could fire all those well trained machinists and replace them with some 12 dollar an hour wannabe machinist. Think that would work out well? Hope you all are flying on the airplane the 12 buck an hour guy was working on.

Must be the UAW. That's it isn't it? Those UAW members building those cars that is making the car industry a lot of money right now. Fire em all eh?

Teamsters? Right? It is the Teamsters that are giving you all heartbreak eh? Walk into a truck stop and you all just tell those Teamsters what a piece of shit they are and how they should be driving for a lot less money. See how that works out for you.

So which company has promised to lower its prices when the unions are gone? Any? None you say?

Then what the fuck is wrong with you union haters. Wages have been flat for the working man for some time. The ones doing ok had union jobs.

You fucking union haters just hate the working man. Come on out and admit it. You all wanna put the fucks to the people who work hard and suck the dicks of those you consider your betters. Which is anyone with more money than you. Which is every union member you encounter. Jealous of a union job is what you all are.

Weekends without work
All breaks at work, including your lunch breaks
Paid vacation
Family & Medical Leave Act (FMLA)
Sick leave
Social Security
Minimum wage
Civil Rights Act/Title VII - prohibits employer discrimination
8-hour work day
Overtime pay
Child labor laws
Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)
40-hour work week
Workers' compensation (workers' comp)
Unemployment insurance
Pensions
Workplace safety standards and regulations
Employer health care insurance
Collective bargaining rights for employees
Wrongful termination laws
Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 (ADEA)
Whistleblower protection laws
Employee Polygraph Protection Act (EPPA) - prohibits employers from using a lie detector test on an employee
Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)
Compensation increases and evaluations (i.e. raises)
Sexual harassment laws
Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)
Holiday pay
Employer dental, life, and vision insurance
Privacy rights
Pregnancy and parental leave
Military leave
The right to strike
Public education for children
Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 - requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work
Laws ending sweatshops in the United States

Right wingers can't be so stupid they think companies would do these things on their own. Come on. They just can't be. Can they? I refuse to believe they can be that damn Finn.

I would rather work at walmart for $8 bucks an hour then work at another lazy ass cry baby union company again, the problem with the left propaganda they try to spew is they think all the great laws the unions of the 1900s ~ 1950s got passed will somehow go away, I take that back the only union i would ever join again would be a german style one, there is a big differance

 

[Iceweasel]

Unions have already declined for decades, and this is what you've gotten:

Marriage has gone down too. Maybe that's the problem? Correlation isn't causation, try again.

 

[zeke]

Where you work now bear? Walmart? And what union were you a member of? Just curious.

would be a german style one, there is a big differance

Don't forget to mention how the government of Germany SUPPORTS unions. And how the companies support unions and actually desire the benefits that a unionized work force gives them.

Of course a CEO of a German company doesn't feel compelled to make 300 times the wages of a typical union worker.

So yea, I can see why you would want to work for a German company with German unions and German labor laws. They take care of their workers. They value their workers. They want to be fair to their workers.

Now that's a foreign concept here in the USA.

 

[Iceweasel]

It isn't rocket science. At least to most of us. States and cities offer tax incentives because....wait for it....the corporation brings jobs. Jobs mean money. Money means taxes. So they actually bring in more income by offering tax breaks and it benefits all. Now how hard was that?

Quite hard for you. Your implication was that companies relocated because they wanted a non unionized work force.

Now you seem to want to indicate that the companies wanted the tax breaks.

Seeing as how the companies pay CLOSE to union scale wages, seems to me that the companies are more interested in the tax breaks.

Which you think has more value to the companies. A small decrease in labor costs OR a complete absence of having to pay taxes?

Maybe the states pick up some tax receipts from the workers.

But the companies get to pick up the tax benefits, the lower wage scale and the state covers the cost of training workers.
And they sure as hell are not lowering the price of their products.

But you think there is a win for the labor force in breaking the unions. What is it?

It wasn't before, then, now. Try to keep up. I was answering your stupid assertions. Yes, they want non union shops. Yes, they want the tax breaks. Yes the governments want them there and offer it. You can't see how those things can all exist at the same time?

Can you chew gum and walk at the same time?