The real fossil fuel problem and alternatives...

[gslack]

A lot of people associate petroleum with automobiles, coal with generating power, natural gas with heating, and so on and so forth. And rightly so, these things are indeed correct. But how many of us actually know what other things these fossil fuels provide us with? Some may know about a few other applications and things; many of you may know that oil refining brings us some plastics, kerosene and a few others, but most of our knowledge on it stops there...

Well lets take a look at it shall we? Following is a link to a brief from a wikki article on oil refining and a pic showing a small example of how it works.

Oil refinery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Specialty end products

These will blend various feedstocks, mix appropriate additives, provide short term storage, and prepare for bulk loading to trucks, barges, product ships, and railcars.

Gaseous fuels such as propane, stored and shipped in liquid form under pressure in specialized railcars to distributors.

Liquid fuels blending (producing automotive and aviation grades of gasoline, kerosene, various aviation turbine fuels, and diesel fuels, adding dyes, detergents, antiknock additives, oxygenates, and anti-fungal compounds as required). Shipped by barge, rail, and tanker ship. May be shipped regionally in dedicated pipelines to point consumers, particularly aviation jet fuel to major airports, or piped to distributors in multi-product pipelines using product separators called pipeline inspection gauges ("pigs").
Lubricants (produces light machine oils, motor oils, and greases, adding viscosity stabilizers as required), usually shipped in bulk to an offsite packaging plant.
Wax (paraffin), used in the packaging of frozen foods, among others. May be shipped in bulk to a site to prepare as packaged blocks.
Sulfur (or sulfuric acid), byproducts of sulfur removal from petroleum which may have up to a couple percent sulfur as organic sulfur-containing compounds. Sulfur and sulfuric acid are useful industrial materials. Sulfuric acid is usually prepared and shipped as the acid precursor oleum.
Bulk tar shipping for offsite unit packaging for use in tar-and-gravel roofing.
Asphalt unit. Prepares bulk asphalt for shipment.
Petroleum coke, used in specialty carbon products or as solid fuel.
Petrochemicals or petrochemical feedstocks, which are often sent to petrochemical plants for further processing in a variety of ways. The petrochemicals may be olefins or their precursors, or various types of aromatic petrochemicals.

okay there you have a short example of base products, and a graphic on how its gotten from the oil. But what about direct products other than those we already know about? Other things we use directly which relies on petroleum-based or derived ingredients?

Well for this I will need a few more posts... The fact is petroleum is used in nearly any industry we can think of in some way. Either directly, such as Transportation of the product, or indirectly as in additives to another product, if you can name it petroleum is in it somehow.

A couple links to study on your own...

Petroleum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Petroleum, Economic Uses of: World of Earth Science
petroleum refining :: Petroleum products and their uses -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

please take some time and educate yourself on this. Start with what I provided and/or look for yourself. Actually I really hope you do look for yourself and stay away from either left or right leaning media outlets or websites/blogs.

If you want to be an educated citizen who votes responsibly, you cannot take anyone's word for it any longer. you have to get your hands dirty and do some research. if you rely on the magic box to tell you or a one-sided or agenda driven source, you will get the government you deserve...

I will post more on this very soon....

 

[gslack]

Hopefully you have done some reading and research on your own by now, and have found a proper bit of perspective on petroleum and the industries/products involved. It literally is nearly everywhere and in almost everything. Here are a few major products...

Products Made from Petroleum

Common Products That Use Petroleum:

Plastics
Ink
Paint
Shoe Polish
Nylons
Roof shingles
Novelty Candy
Cosmetics
Candles
Vaseline
Bug Killer
Ammonia
Tires
Asphalt
Crayons
Paper cups
Wax paper

Those are just some of the major products mind you, the actual full list I wouldn't even want to try and compile here. There are many other smaller applications which we do not even realize comes from distillates and petrochemicals which as the name "petro-chemicals" would imply, comes from petroleum and its by-products.

A more robust list can be found here... be prepared, its truly shocking...

petroleum refining :: Petroleum products and their uses -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

So if you have checked the Encyclopedia Britannica article, you can get an idea of the reality behind petroleum. The reality is fuel for transportation is just the tip of the Iceberg.

Now please ask yourself some very realistic questions about alternatives. How many viable alternatives do we have? As far as actual petroleum all we have heard about are alternatives involving our automobiles and transportation related. Things like Ethanol... A similar product made from alcohol derived from cellulose or plants. Corn-based being the most often mentioned.

Okay so whats the deal with ethanol? is it a viable alternative? Well, lets look over the facts...

1. Ethanol energy content per gallon for E85 (85% ethanol,15% gasoline) is around 80,000 btu. Compared to gasoline at 109,000 -125,000 btu. No.2 Diesel at 128,000-130,000 btu. And even Biodiesel at 117,000-120,000 btu. So ethanol is significantly less efficient in regards to energy per gallon.

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2. Ethanol E85 burning in transportation produces CO2, as well as nearly the same harmful chemicals as gasoline. As well as some other harmful chemicals in higher amounts than gasoline...

Ethanol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ethanol combustion in an internal combustion engine yields many of the products of incomplete combustion produced by gasoline and significantly larger amounts of formaldehyde and related species such as acetaldehyde.[27] This leads to a significantly larger photochemical reactivity that generates much more ground level ozone.[28] These data have been assembled into The Clean Fuels Report comparison of fuel emissions[29] and show that ethanol exhaust generates 2.14 times as much ozone as does gasoline exhaust. When this is added into the custom "Localised Pollution Index (LPI)" of The Clean Fuels Report the local pollution, i.e. that which contributes to smog, is 1.7 on a scale where gasoline is 1.0 and higher numbers signify greater pollution. This issue has been formalized by the California Air Resources Board in 2008 by recognizing control standards for formaldehydes as an emissions control group much like the conventional NOx and Reactive Organic Gases (ROGs).[30]

3. Ethanol production produces harmful chemicals. Including compounds called VOC's (volatile organic compound), you can guess by the name what the problem is...
Ethanol fuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Manufacture
In 2002, monitoring the process of ethanol production from corn revealed that they released VOCs (volatile organic compounds) at a higher rate than had previously been disclosed.[171] The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) subsequently reached settlement with Archer Daniels Midland and Cargill, two of the largest producers of ethanol, to reduce emission of these VOCs. VOCs are produced when fermented corn mash is dried for sale as a supplement for livestock feed. Devices known as thermal oxidizers or catalytic oxidizers can be attached to the plants to burn off the hazardous gases.

Do I really need to go on here? I think we get it... Ethanol or E85 as we use it today is in reality no more "clean" than gasoline, and a lot less efficient. That goes for production costs to energy production, increased cost of corn as a food (corn prices quadrupled after E85 got big), and not only produces CO2 but also larger amounts of formaldehyde and other chemicals. And as I recall there was a post regarding formaldehyde regulation earlier last week, and its not so good a chemical according to the eco-crowd....

So ethanol is a no for now I would say....

To be continued.....

 

[Old Rocks]

It seems reasonable then that using fossil fuels for transportation, when there are viable alternatives, is foolish. Were we using petroleum only for such things as you list, we would not need to drill off shore, we could provide enough from existing wells onshore.

We have the technology, it is time to terminate the use of petroleum as fuel. Same for coal.

 

[Big Black Dog]

Fossil fuels? If we use up all of our fossils for fuel, what will we look at when we go to the discovery centers?

 

[konradv]

Development of fusion power would eliminate the need for any fossils being used for fuels or anything else. The nearly unlimited, cheap power would enable us to make everything we need from resources already available or reusuable without the need for further drilling or mining in environmentally sensitive areas. Contact your representitives and ask them to earmark more money for research. It's the only long term solution. For more info go to:

ITER - the way to new energy or Department of Energy - Fusion

 

[gslack]

It seems reasonable then that using fossil fuels for transportation, when there are viable alternatives, is foolish. Were we using petroleum only for such things as you list, we would not need to drill off shore, we could provide enough from existing wells onshore.

We have the technology, it is time to terminate the use of petroleum as fuel. Same for coal.

Nice try douchebag, why don't you try and read the second post?

 

[gslack]

Okay so ethanol is not going to happen yet. Whats left?

Biodiesel? Well biodiesel already comes with the same problems we get with regular diesel. It requires agents added to it to function in colder climates. These agents are expensive, mostly come from petrochemicals(oil), and producing/using them on the scale required to replace gasoline right now is just not possible. Not to mention it also produces CO2 along with other chemicals or GHG's...

Also, despite the claims by the media, we cannot produce enough of it to sustain it as a fuel replacement.

It like ethanol is a an okay supplement, but barring some miracle scientific breakthrough will remain that way.

Biodiesel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Okay how about Propane? Well propane is a by-product made from oil refining or in smaller amounts, natural gas processing. First it comes from oil refining meaning oil still being drilled for and refined, and second its a BY-PRODUCT, so the kind of production levels required to make it a viable alternate fuel would just be impossible right now. Not to mention inefficient.

Propane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So-called "Clean Coal"? Well this is currently very expensive, and still has not been shown to any scale that would make it viable. And again it is still a fossil fuel which will produce CO2 as well as other GHG's.

Clean coal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Electricity? Well again electricity is predominately created by burning fossil fuels such as coal. And one of the big things we want is to reduce the use of fossil fuels. So unless there is a drastic change in the electricity generation infrastructure, this is a no go.

Also there is a problem with storage of power in the vehicles, and recharging the vehicles takes a very long time. Making it even less viable as far as reliability functionality.

Electric car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Okay so we have gone over the largest portion of proposed alternatives and find none of them can fill the needs for fuel we require right now. The facts are simple so far. All the alternatives we have looked at to this point either do not address the problems of Green house gas emissions, do not address the needs of the world well enough, or are either too inefficient, too costly, technologically unattainable currently, or we cannot make the quantities required.

Well we have one more to examine so let's keep an open mind....

to be continued.....

 

[Big Fitz]

It seems reasonable then that using fossil fuels for transportation, when there are viable alternatives, is foolish. Were we using petroleum only for such things as you list, we would not need to drill off shore, we could provide enough from existing wells onshore.

We have the technology, it is time to terminate the use of petroleum as fuel. Same for coal.

You don't seem to grasp that gasoline will result from any refining process. Why would we bother WASTING it like we did a hundred years ago by dumping it in the river or burning it off as a torch for no purpose? This isn't an option we can just turn off you know.

Oil truly is a miracle product. It is why all modern life is based off it's acquisition, refinement and use, and why you will never go to an alternative product world with the current level of technology. We're going to need a major leap in materials science and energy storage before we'll free ourselves from oil.

 

[Big Fitz]

Don't forget hydroelectric. What large valleys can we flood for power? Think the Econazis will freak out at the devestation wrought on the habitats? Shit, we can't even build a much needed, low impact bridge because of them.

 

[konradv]

Nice try douchebag, why don't you try and read the second post?
------------------------------

If you're going to use the term, at least use it properly. Douchebags are people who point out picky little problems and turn them into big problems. That would make YOUR post a prime example!

 

[konradv]

We're going to need a major leap in materials science and energy storage before we'll free ourselves from oil.

It's around the corner, ITER - the way to new energy

 

[gslack]

We are down to the last one of these alternate fuel sources I will address. This was predominately about gasoline/diesel alternatives, because this is the largest single use of petroleum, and based on current technologies available. So please bear that in mind before telling me about other possibilities i left out. Cold fusion, and various others we do not have the technology to create yet do not count at this time. We are not talking about alternatives for 10, 20, 50, or even 100 years from now. We are talking now.....

Okay last but not least, My favorite and most viable replacement to me is Hydrogen. Why Hydrogen? Well we do not have to burn it, meaning no dangerous chemicals we have to clean up, ban, regulate or convert later. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the known galaxy, and its use in fuel cell technology does not actually use the Hydrogen up, it simply harnesses the energy created from the combining of Oxygen with Hydrogen to create water.

Do any of you truly understand what that means? It means, that the hydrogen fuel cell technology does not burn the hydrogen. The hydrogen is combined with oxygen to make water, this process creates the energy or electrical charge. The water vapor is sent back into the atmosphere where it will eventually fall back to earth as water. With no impurities or other potentially harmful compounds. And even more amazing over time the water vapor will break down and guess what, we will have both hydrogen and oxygen again using the natural process the planet has used for eons.

The potential applications of this are amazing. Why even the so-called waste product is pure water which could be used for drinking, watering crops, and the endless other uses we have for the miracle of water.

Hydrogen fuel cell technology applied to a vehicle with a semi-permanent cell (it will need replaced from time to time), could almost fit right in with existing infrastructure. In other words existing gas stations could be modified to provide Hydrogen making it a simple stop for refueling much like we do with automobiles burning gasoline today.

But wait... Nothing is perfect so where is the drawback? Well currently the production of pure (or nearly so) Hydrogen required for fuel cell technology, is very limited and expensive. Also the production process predominately used requires massive amounts of coal burning. So we still have the same problems which we are trying to stop....

Hydrogen fuel cells are expensive, and the technology is still in its infancy. Hydrogen in fuel cells are stored under extreme pressures and there is an inherent risk in that. Pure Hydrogen transportation is very difficult and potentially hazardous. An accident on the highway with hydrogen powered vehicle, or a vehicle transporting hydrogen could be disastrous.

Here is some information on hydrogen as a potential alternative...

Hydrogen Fuel - Energy from reacting hydrogen (H2) with oxygen

Alternative Fuels and Advanced Vehicles Data Center: Hydrogen

Please read the information in those links and do some research of your own as well. Again do not take my (or anyone else's) word for any of this, do some research of your own and decide for yourself. Do not let other people decide for you, do your own thinking and decide for yourself.

A hasty decision made by taking what another tells you, is the most dangerous problem we face in the world today. With upcoming energy and cap and trade legislation, we cannot afford to be comfortably numb any longer.

Make no mistake. Cap and trade, is a tax on life. Nearly everything we do every day we are alive creates CO2. From the breeding and functions of microscopic organisms, to the breath all creatures on this planet take every moment of life, we create CO2. Plants require it to grow, the rotting vegetation left behind creates it, the thawing of perma-frost releases it, swamps, rain forests, and viertually every industry we have will in some way produce it. CO2 is life to this planet, just as much as Oxygen or water is.

Any regulation of CO2 that will have a monetary value, a tax, a penalty, or a system where they can trade it like a commodity will in effect, by virtue and by direct application, be a tax on life....

There is no other end for this legislation. If we do get a cap and trade bill or legislation, there already is a market full of investors, led by the very same people who press for this legislation. This shows they are no better than any other business men. And just like other business men, when this market starts to make them money, what will be their incentive to back alternate fuels or newer, more efficient technologies? Do you think they will give up their cash cow? Do you think the government who cannot stand up to big corporations now will be able to stand up to a market that will encompass the entire world, in every breath we take and every natural and unnatural function on the planet? The wealth this will generate for some will be astronomical and the effects will invade every aspect of life.

You sign on to cap and trade, you sell us all into paying for our existence. That is not life, liberty, or freedom. And it certainly is not saving the planet or our future....

 

[gslack]

Nice try douchebag, why don't you try and read the second post?
------------------------------

If you're going to use the term, at least use it properly. Douchebags are people who point out picky little problems and turn them into big problems. That would make YOUR post a prime example!

Retard, he is a douchebag, i call him that because his incessant and deliberate lying and misleading in his posts, combined with his semantics based excuses for it... This makes him a douchebag. he knows its a lie, he knows its propaganda, and when he is called on it he makes a petty little semantics excuse or makes little asinine remarks that are not accurate to the point.

When I caught him lying about what one of his posts articles claimed, his excuse was to confound it with bullshit that was not part of his post or claims or even in the article he linked to. That is being a douchebag as well..... Now be quiet the adults are talking....

 

[gslack]

We're going to need a major leap in materials science and energy storage before we'll free ourselves from oil.

It's around the corner, ITER - the way to new energy

What part of CURRENT technology did you not get??? Under construction in the south of france.... Well thats just great when its done and if it works.... Christ man get your head out of the clouds and realize the difference between now and tomorrow.

 

[Big Fitz]

Oh good!

And the first industrial scale North American plant capable of replacing ONE coal fired plant is going on line when?

Yep, that's right, this is still science fiction hoping to make it's first prototype work. Hope it does work. But now, what REAL source of energy is available till this is perfected hopefully sometime around the turn of the century.

 

[gslack]

Oh good!

And the first industrial scale North American plant capable of replacing ONE coal fired plant is going on line when?

Yep, that's right, this is still science fiction hoping to make it's first prototype work. Hope it does work. But now, what REAL source of energy is available till this is perfected hopefully sometime around the turn of the century.

here is an interesting fact....

In 2003 a certain so-called anti-environmental President backed and gave funding to a project which would have been the first "clean coal" electric power facility in the US. This project called "FutureGen" was intended to make an electricity generating and hydrogen producing plant, with a near zero emissions rating.

However, in 2008 the Dept. of Energy pulled the funding citing its costs were higher than estimated.... This was later shown to be an exaggeration on the part of the DOE due to a "miscalculation" on their part.

Funny but the DOE head was Samuel Bodman also a board member of DuPont, a company relying on petrochemicals. And a facility which would use clean coal to make hydrogen fuel a viable alternative, would certainly harm their business and their partners in petroleum.

Also a Democractic senator named Dick Durbin gave the entire project a great deal of bad press accusing the project of creating false hope in illinois where the plant was to be located...

There is your problem in a nutshell.... We have men serving on the board of a company reliant on petroleum, a senator who uses this as an opportunity to bash a republican proposed idea regardless of whether or not it will work or is even a viable avenue to examine.

And now? Wouldn't ya know Obama plans to back this project and expand it..... And now the senator has nothing to cry about, in fact its a bold step in the energy future..... How convenient...

This entire energy problem is perpetuated by these bastards for years and then when they get the big chair they change their stances like we change socks.... Pathetic...

please check me on this if you don't believe it...

FutureGen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Samuel Bodman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dick Durbin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its bullshit, and so is the system.....

 

[konradv]

And the first industrial scale North American plant capable of replacing ONE coal fired plant is going on line when?
-------------------------------

Good question, that's why we need more intensive research. It's been too long. Considering it's the only viable long term solution for all the different ways we use energy, it would seem imperative we shorten the time as much as posssible.

 

[gslack]

And the first industrial scale North American plant capable of replacing ONE coal fired plant is going on line when?
-------------------------------

Good question, that's why we need more intensive research. It's been too long. Considering it's the only viable long term solution for all the different ways we use energy, it would seem imperative we shorten the time as much as posssible.

Once more.... Polly! we are talking about current viable alternatives, not future tech we may be able to develop in a few decades. Please try and keep up....

 

[Big Fitz]

And the first industrial scale North American plant capable of replacing ONE coal fired plant is going on line when?
-------------------------------

Good question, that's why we need more intensive research. It's been too long. Considering it's the only viable long term solution for all the different ways we use energy, it would seem imperative we shorten the time as much as posssible.

Oh good! that means we have NOTHING available to replace coal or nuclear. Hence, your argument and point are moot.

Here's where we REALLY are: I need a plant to go online in 10 years. Give you a little leeway for finding it's replacement. What have you got that can produce 1,000 MWe reliably with no need for peaking plants? That's about 22% bigger than Three Mile island or the capacity of Point Beach.

Got anything green able to replace one of those plants in that amount of time? If not, it's fiction.

 

[pans trogladyta]

It seems reasonable then that using fossil fuels for transportation, when there are viable alternatives, is foolish. Were we using petroleum only for such things as you list, we would not need to drill off shore, we could provide enough from existing wells onshore.

We have the technology, it is time to terminate the use of petroleum as fuel. Same for coal.

Nice try douchebag, why don't you try and read the second post?

Since most petroleum is burned for fuel, he is quite correct. The other uses for petroleum do not use nearly so much of the supply, hence they would last longer. Also before we used petroleum for some of the things on your list, we used other sources for the same products. perhaps we should seriously consider finding substitues for petroleum?