The Real American soldier

[Annie]

Welcome Faux Pas, I must agree with your salient point. If there was to be 'equivalency' here, Mr. Berg would have been posed in a butt crack or women's underwear pose. That wasn't the case. Also, if the beheading was done to 'even the score' a non-starter if ever there was one, why does Al Queda promise 'more to come'?

 

[Russlan1187]

NewGuy, your answer dissaponts me. I was expecting better from you. You want me to believe that the only reason Jews and Christians lived in peace in the Middle East is because Muslims didn't follow their text. I think any objective person would agree with me that it's mmuch more likely that the Koran doesn't permit against anyone who doesn't wish to harm Islam.
Here are some verses from the Koran that refute your claim.

[004:089] They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

[004:090] Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then God Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

And about your claim that Islam used violence to spread.....

[002:256] Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand- hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by Russlan1187
NewGuy, your answer dissaponts me. I was expecting better from you. You want me to believe that the only reason Jews and Christians lived in peace in the Middle East is because Muslims didn't follow their text. I think any objective person would agree with me that it's mmuch more likely that the Koran doesn't permit against anyone who doesn't wish to harm Islam.
Here are some verses from the Koran that refute your claim.

[004:089] They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

[004:090] Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then God Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

And about your claim that Islam used violence to spread.....

[002:256] Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand- hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.

I can (as has already been done in many threads) post versus from the Quaran and passages from sunnah that totally go opposed to what your posted above. Let's suffice it to say this;

Actions speak louder than words. And the actions of the Muslim community lately have not been very kind towards non-believers. If Islam is so peace-loving and provides for free will, without compulsion, then don't fly planes into our buildings and stop killing innocent women and children.

The actions of the few far outway the words of many. Keep that in mind! In other words, the supposed majority of peace-loving Muslims need to get off their asses and reign in the non-peace-loving Muslims that are commiting horrible atrocities in the name of Islam. (Again, remember, actions speak louder than words - if they are not reigned in by their own, then what are others supposed to think??)

 

[Russlan1187]

Sir Evil, I accept your apology and I also want to apologize for the title of my post. It implies that most American soldiers are sadistic and that's not true. I wanted to say that the abuse at the Abu Gharaib prison is more widespread than a few so called "bad apples".

Freeandfun1, I never said that that the Koran says that war is never permitted. Muslims are peaceful but we do believe in war of self-defense. There are verses in the Koran that make Islam sound violent when taken out of context. For example, let's look at 4:89 and 4:90.

[004:089] They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

People who hate Islam will use this verse to imply that the Koran says we should kill all non-Muslims. But the very next refutes that claim.

[004:090] Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then God Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

Freeandfun, actions do speak more than words. Did you know that because of the sanctions imposed on Iraq after the first war on Iraq 5000 iraqi children died every month. Think about that for a second. That's 165 kids under seven every day. The supposed reason for the sanctions was to ensure that Saddam Hussein didn't acquire WMDs or become a threat. But despite the death of more than 1 million civilians over a decade the US launches a war against Iraq even though there was no imminent threat.
Here's a quote from Madeline Albright about the deaths.

Leslie Stahl went to Iraq for the television program 60 Minutes. On the program that was aired on May 12, 1996, she asked Madeline Albright, the then US ambassador to the UN, to explain the US policy in the context of the devastation she had seen among the children of Iraq and the 500,000 deaths of Iraqi children. Mrs Albright explained: 'I think this is a very hard choice, but the price, we think the price is worth it.'

The reason Muslims hate the US isn't because of democracy or its way of life. It's because it continues to kill Muslims.

 

[Russlan1187]

The Toronto star article is based on a report by the International Committee of the Red Cross and the New Yorker has based several articles about the abuse on a 53 page report from the Army that says abuse is widespread.

 

[Faux Pas]

I don't trust the Red cross as a scorce for accuracy either... after the prison story broke there were many prisoners reporting so called abuse that turned out to be false... false reports were also filed with other human rights organizations as well...


this is just one example:


<b>At a news conference by human rights groups in Baghdad on Sunday, numerous former prisoners came forward to tell of abuse - beatings by soldiers, sleep deprivation - in accounts that resembled those found by US investigators at the notorious prison.

Fallujah native Abdul-Qader Abdul-Rahman al-Ani, his left elbow wrapped in bandages, his right forearm bound in a cast, recounted how he was beaten by soldiers who picked him up last month. The soldiers tied him and two others arrested with him to a tree and sodomized them one after the other, he told journalists.

But as Ani, 47, repeated his story, he was interrupted by Jabber al-Okaili, a member of one of the human rights groups that organized the gathering. "He's lying," Okaili shouted. "He's a liar!"

Ani was rushed into an office, where Okaili and others unwound the bandage on his left arm and found the elbow unscarred and healthy. </b>

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=3396

 

[Russlan1187]

The New Yorker used a report from the US army. That should be credible even for the most skeptical observers.

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by Russlan1187
Freeandfun, actions do speak more than words. Did you know that because of the sanctions imposed on Iraq after the first war on Iraq 5000 iraqi children died every month. Think about that for a second. That's 165 kids under seven every day. The supposed reason for the sanctions was to ensure that Saddam Hussein didn't acquire WMDs or become a threat. But despite the death of more than 1 million civilians over a decade the US launches a war against Iraq even though there was no imminent threat.
Here's a quote from Madeline Albright about the deaths.

Leslie Stahl went to Iraq for the television program 60 Minutes. On the program that was aired on May 12, 1996, she asked Madeline Albright, the then US ambassador to the UN, to explain the US policy in the context of the devastation she had seen among the children of Iraq and the 500,000 deaths of Iraqi children. Mrs Albright explained: 'I think this is a very hard choice, but the price, we think the price is worth it.'

The reason Muslims hate the US isn't because of democracy or its way of life. It's because it continues to kill Muslims.

The sanctions did not kill those children. Saddam killed those children by not releasing the food and aid that was readily provided to them by the USA. You ignore my point. Let's assume that your position is right and let's even say that George W. Bush, with his own hands killed those 5,000 children per day. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

If you want to attack our military or our leaders, then I can see them as fair targets. But when you start killing innocent civilians (can you say 9-11?) then you have lost any credibility you MIGHT have had.

 

[OCA]

Hey Russlan post some proof or facts about the 5000 a month from a reputable source will ya? Regardless it wasn't our fault no matter the number(it was Sadaam) but i've heard this many times here and it has never been backed up.

 

[Russlan1187]

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0702-03.htm

Hans von Sponeck is a former UN humanitarian co-ordinator for Iraq. He is the author of the following article I provided a link for.

Six years of revisions to sanctions policy on Baghdad have repeatedly promised "mitigation" of civilian suffering. Yet, in 1999, Unicef confirmed our worst fears: that one child in seven dies before the age of 5 -- an estimated 5,000 excess child deaths every month above the 1989 pre-sanctions rate. Four months ago, Unicef reported that more than 22 per cent of the country's young children remain chronically malnourished, confirming yet again how limited this "mitigation" has been. The failure is not one of internal distribution. During my tenure, more than 90 per cent of oil-for-food goods distributed by the government reached their intended destinations. UN reports have consistently confirmed this success rate -- one beyond expectation, given the chaotic constraints of disintegrating infrastructure, erratic communications and electrical power, and arbitrary U.S. "holds" on $5-billion worth of contracts.

 

[freeandfun1]

Russ.... the article doesn't say WHY the malnourishment.... how can you blame the sanctions? Even the article states that 90% of the food was reaching the masses. If that is the case, then why were they dieing??? How do you spin that one??? Was it perhaps because Sadman didn't give a shit? Or maybe the contradictions just don't add up.... is it maybe just spin???

C'mon... give us an answer.....

Also, don't forget about all the reports of corruption. Ole Sadman and his buddies bought more whiskey with the money than just about anything else..... lol

 

[Russlan1187]

Freeandfun, I didn't really understand your last post. If the children weren't dying because the food and medicine wasn't being delivered to them. 90% of the food was delivered to the children. They were dying because there wasn't enough food and medicine to go around.

Rather, the failure has been a problem of woefully inadequate amounts and range of goods received. Until May of 2002, the total value of all food, medicines, education, sanitation, agricultural and infrastructure supplies that have arrived in Iraq has amounted to $175 per person a year, or less than 49 cents a day.

 

[freeandfun1]

Under the food for oil program the regime was allowed to buy whatever they wanted. Why is it OUR fault they didn't buy enough food for the people?

I ask you this.... we have had much tougher sanctions placed against Cuba for over 40 years.... why aren't their children dieing at a rate of 5,000 per month?

Could the deaths have had anything to do with the wilful neglect of the people that perpetuated by the regime that was in power at the time?

Read THIS ARTICLE if you have an open mind on the situation.

 

[Russlan1187]

The sanctions on Cuba are only imposed by the US, not the UN. Cuba can still trade with Canada, Britain, etc. That's why Cuban children didn't die.

The UN never lifted the deadly sanctions on Iraq because they knew the US would veto it.

A much more constructive solution would be to lift the economic sanctions that have impoverished society, decimated the Iraqi middle class and eliminated any possibility for the emergence of alternative leadership. Political change would not happen overnight. But then again, 12 years of sanctions have only strengthened the current regime.

Saddam was a traitor to his people and the US government and Hussein have the deaths of innocent children on their hands.

 

[freeandfun1]

Read THIS ARTICLE if you have an open mind on the situation.

As always, America takes the blame, but it is not their fault.

 

[Russlan1187]

Sir Evil, I want Americans to understand why Muslims in the world despise the American government so. I want you to understand that we don't hate democracy or the your way of life. We don't care how you live as long as you aren't harming us.

Originally posted by Sir Evil
First of the Food for Oil program be bout a as much bullshit as the UN itself! I cant understand why it is you are trying so hard to lay so much blame and hate on the US. What is your reasoning for this?

 

[Russlan1187]

Freeandfun, I took this from the article you posted.




UN reports suggest hundreds of thousands, particularly the young and old, died as a result of the embargo. Five years ago Saddam agreed to a deal that allowed him to sell oil as long as the earnings, placed in a UN-administered account in New York, were used to buy food and medicine. Much of the cash is soaked up by payments to the UN and war reparations to Kuwait. Red tape, and alleged wilful hindrance, have meant that shortages, particularly of drugs, are common.

 

[freeandfun1]

And I took this from it....

The harsh truth is that the sanctions, in addition to inflicting suffering on millions, made many very rich. Uday, Saddam's psychotic eldest son, has run the bulk of the regime's oil-smuggling operation and made his father one of the richest men in the world. Sources estimate the dictator's wealth at more than £3 billion.

The money, food, et al were there. It is not the USA's fault it was not handed out. Do we have to hold your hands for everything?

If you read the article, you can clearly see that the goods were available, it just was not being distributed to the people. Sure, the article and the UN blame the USA and Britian, but at the same time they talk about the riches evident in the country. An oxy-moron?

Also, even the UN said that most of the deaths occured in the North and South.... not in the Sunni triangle.... again, how is that our fault? If he was not getting the goods to the people, why are we to blame? Stop passing the buck!

 

[cptpwichita]

can a muslim change his religion?
can 2 religions co-exist in the arabian pennisula?
did mohammed every order the killing of jews(in general terms)?
how old was mohammeds youngest wife?
how many wives does islam allow?how many did mohammed have?
did mohammed every have individuals assassinated for disagreeing with him or making fun of him?
does islam allow for rape?
did mohammed ever torture prisoners?why?


can you answer these for me?

 

[Russlan1187]

Freeandfun, Saddam got rich smuggling oil out of Iraq. The oil that was sold legitimately by Iraq went into UN accounts that was to buy food and medicine for the Iraqis and pay reparations for the Persian Gulf war. There was never enough food or medicine so millions. Freeandfun, you are covering your eyes so you don't see the truth.