The raw facts on health care, US vs Canda

[Karateka]

How is asking questions "spouting shit?" Are you always this rude, or is it only when you don't have answers to relatively simple questions at hand?

mentioning what other nations pay for health care whether it be as a part of their GNP or taxes or whatever is spouting shit because it is usually taken out of all context and oput out as a red herring.

Excuse me, but you're the one who provided the "Five Democratic Countries" link - Vast LWC was talking about Canada, therefore, I was talking about Canada. We were comparing how they do it to how WE do it. If that's "spouting shit," then you need to pay closer attention to the context of the discussion he and I were having, thank you very much.

And while I would absolutely agree that given the chance, we could come up with some great solutions, we will likely never get that chance because it is in the hands of people who want to keep the power they have acquired. The promise of healthcare reform is now being used as a carrot; once the healthcare reform is passed, it will become more and more a government controlled object, and come election time, it will start being used not as a stick, but as a threat - vote for us, or the evil Republicans will take your healthcare away, and you'll all die. You can take it to the bank.

 

[Christopher]

Looks like Canada, with their supposedly "inferior" socialized medicine, seems to have an advantage over us in all-around care.

Interesting.

Or, perhaps one reason could be that they choose to live healthier lifestyles, which is not reflective of the health care system. Americans are known for being unhealthy.

 

[Old Rocks]

When I repair a machine, nobody asks my state of mind, ideology, or politics. They ask that the repair work. Comparing results, Canada's Health care system is working far better than ours, and at about one half the costs. Those are the results, you people are just spinning.

 

[elvis]

When I repair a machine, nobody asks my state of mind, ideology, or politics. They ask that the repair work. Comparing results, Canada's Health care system is working far better than ours, and at about one half the costs. Those are the results, you people are just spinning.

Then move to canada and leave my health coverage alone.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The average life span in Canada is 2-3 years longer than the average life span in the United States.

Source: World Health Organization

Never mind the fact that you've been told at least six times that life expectancy has exactly two things to do with an industrialized nation's health care system: Jack and shit, and Jack left town.

At this point, you've gone from willfully stupid to embracing your stupidity like a long-lost relative.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Looks like Canada, with their supposedly "inferior" socialized medicine, seems to have an advantage over us in all-around care.

Interesting.

According to whom? Nationmaster? You can cite blank, uncontexted statistics, and we're all supposed to roll over in blind awe? Whatever.

Ever hear of the OECD? THEY say that the US outperforms the rest of the world in outcomes across the board. Not just cancer, but pneumonia, heart disease,
AIDS, cystic fibrosis, premature birth, renal failure . . . And the Commonwealth Fund agrees.

By the way, you know that WHO study you dingbats like to wave in our faces all the time? The one where you only read the composite result that's influenced by personal agenda? The part you missed, because Michael Moore didn't mention it in his movie, is where even the WHO ranked the US number one in the world in responsiveness to patients’ needs in
choice of provider, dignity, autonomy, timely care, and confidentiality.

This is what happens when you believe what you're told, instead of looking it up for yourself.

 

[Andrew2382]

Obviously a system that is struggling in Canada as it is to fund itself to give healthcare to a mere 30 million people with compared to us have no problem with immigration is going to work here in the states.

I mean afterall, the states has 10 times the population, just over 300 million, and is one of the obese industralized countries in the world, wouldn't be surprised if we were #1 on that front.

Obviously it would work here because idiots actually think it will be "free"

 

[Andrew2382]

Neither Canada nor Australia has a massive African-descent underclass populating the inner cities, nor do they have over 20 million largely uneducated immigrants from Mexico.

Oh, I see: When all else fails, blame blacks and hispanics. Wow.

Why would any of that make a difference if they had health insurance?

has nothing to do with blaming people

However, lets call a spade a spade shall we.

When you go to Compton, LA or Brownsville, Brooklyn you are not going to find a big white culture there are you?

MSNBC loves to tell you there are 40 million people in this country without health insurance....what they fail to tell you a majority of that 40% are illegal immigrants. In fact I will try to find it again but the Pew Research Center did a study and it was something like 40%

 

[Andrew2382]

http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/107.pdf

page 28


Adults

Type Uninsured

U.S. citizens 14%

Legal immigrants 24%

Illegal immigrants 59%

Children

Type Uninsured

U.S. citizens 8%

Citizens whose parents are legal immigrants 14%

Foreign-born children of legal immigrants 22%

Citizens with illegal immigrant parents 25%

Foreign-born children of illegal immigrants 45%

So lets see, according to this aprrox 14$ of US born citizens are without health insurance , 24% are legal immigrants, and 59% stems from unauthorized immigrants.

And for our children only 8% of children are without compared to 45% of illegal children with illegal parents.

Recent data from 2008.

Yeah seems like we have an immigration problem, add that together with Americans being the most gluttonous people on earth and it will always be a recipe for expensive healthcare.

But no, we love our illegal immigrants I guess


Sounds like our immigration problem is the main burden on our healthcare problem. Put that together with the fact that Americans are gluttonous and its always going to equal disaster.

 

[Vast LWC]

Certainly.

http://www.ahip.org/content/default.aspx?docid=25216

The average privately insured household pays $1800 per year to subsidize Medicare and Medicaid losses.

Hmm, I do see what led you to believe that. A private study engineered, and paid for by a consortium of health insurance corporations. However, there is no proof that there is a "Cost Shift" only that there is a theory held by private insurers that there is a cost shift.

Hospitals, Pharma Companies, and various other private health concerns are making LOTS of money from what they do. Huge amounts of it in fact.

Price control by fiat (government power) is one of the most economically destructive things a government can do.

Except in the case of a desperately needed essential, where it is deemed that price gouging is happening.

Like health care.

The price of healthcare is increasing dramatically because the types of treatments are improving dramatically. Modern medical technology is incredibly complex and expensive to produce

How is it that technology has DESCREASED costs in every other industry except health care? And if technology is in fact increasing the cost of health care, than it is not an effective technology.

That is what the free market is all about, right? various entities are supposed to compete with one another until prices go down, right?

Only that's not happening.

There are statistical methods for eliminating differences in demographics from your comparisons between countries. Methods that you have ignored, thus invalidating your comparison.

But I notice you don't mention what those factors are, do you?

One can only imagine what rationalizations will be presented. Please, be specific.

 

[Vast LWC]

Because health insurance cannot stop the urban youth from drinking. Or joining gangs. Or doing drugs. Or ignoring health problems until they are in the ER. Or getting pregnant at 15.

Because none of this happens to white midwesterners, or applachian hillbillies, or Tennessee trailer trash, right?

Nope, it only happens in "urban areas".

What if I told you that folks in Urban areas paid more taxes, and received much less in federal funding than people in rural areas? Which would indicate that said rural areas are in need of more help, not less than urban areas.

The reason why I would say that is because it's true.

In this thread, you can find conclusive proof of the divide in funding and taxes on a state-by-state basis:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...sentation-red-states-rip-off-blue-states.html

You will notice that high-population (more urban) states get less funding and pay more taxes. I can break it down to just urban areas, but that would take much more time to do than arguing on this thread is worth.

This is a federal welfare program that provides more welfare to white, rural people than urban folks. Whether that welfare is in the form of government provided jobs or hand-outs, it's still welfare.

 

[Vast LWC]

However, lets call a spade a spade shall we.

When you go to Compton, LA or Brownsville, Brooklyn you are not going to find a big white culture there are you?

And when you go to some run-down trailer house park in backwoods tennessee you don't find too much of a black culture there either. So what's your point?

 

[Vast LWC]

According to whom? Nationmaster? You can cite blank, uncontexted statistics

All sources were referenced. Nationmaster links it's sources, and I provided them in the post.

 

[Vast LWC]

Never mind the fact that you've been told at least six times that life expectancy has exactly two things to do with an industrialized nation's health care system: Jack and shit, and Jack left town.

Life expectancy was one of what, 8 factors that I put up there? And your response is to shoot down one out of 8?

And let's get this straight. While life expectancy does not necessarily directly relate to quality of health care, it is DEFINITELY an indicator.

Only someone who is completely brainwashed would state that better health care doesn't make people live longer.

 

[jreeves]

It has been pointed out that the United State has better survival rates than Canada in cancer victims. This is true, by about 3-4%, it would seem.

Much ado has been made in the Right-Wing media and on these boards about this fact, and it has been held up as an example of their opinion that US Health Care is better than Canadian health care.

Well, Cancer is just one disease. It is a leading cause of death, but not THE leading cause of death. So let's look at comparisons in other diseases, shall we?

Circulatory disease deaths per 100,000:
Canada: 219
United States: 265

Original Source: OECD Health Data 2003 and Health Data 2002. Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, Australia's Health 2002

Digestive disease deaths per 100,000:Canada: 17.4
United States: 20.5

Original Source: World Health Organization

Infant mortality rate per 1,000 live birthsCanada: 5.08
United States: 6.3

Original Source: CIA World Factbooks

Intestinal diseases death rate
Canada: 0.3%
United States: 7.3%

Original Source: World Health Organization

Respiratory disease child death rate per 100,000Canada: 0.62
United States: 40.43

Original Source: World Health Organization

Heart disease deaths per 100,000:Canada: 94.9
United States: 106.5

Original Source: World Health Organization

HIV deaths per million people:Canada: 47.423
United States: 48.141

Original Source: CIA World Factbooks

And here's an interesting fact:

Proability of not reaching age 60:Canada: 9.5%
United States: 12.8%

Original Source: CIA World Factbooks

Another interesting fact...

Newswise Medical News | Being Overweight, Obese During Early Adulthood Associated With Greater Risk of Pancreatic Cancer
Young adults who are overweight or obese have an increased risk of pancreatic cancer, and being obese at an older age is associated with a lower overall survival rate for patients with pancreatic cancer, according to a study in the June 24 issue of JAMA.

Pancreatic cancer is the fourth leading cause of cancer-related death for both men and women in the United States. As the prevalence of overweight and obesity have rapidly increased during the last 2 decades, accumulating evidence has emerged that excess body weight is a risk factor for pancreatic cancer. “However, to our knowledge, no study has explicitly reported the association between excess body weight across an individual’s life span and the risk of pancreatic cancer or identified at which ages the key predisposing weight change usually occurs,” the authors write.

Obesity Rates Continue to Climb in U.S. - US News and World Report
The rates of adult obesity in the United States increased in 23 states during the past year and did not decrease in any state.

And the number of obese and overweight children has now climbed to 30 percent in 30 states, a troubling trend that could signal decades of weight-related health problems such as cancer, diabetes and heart disease as these children become adults.

Those are just some of the worrisome findings in an annual report on obesity in America, released Wednesday by the Trust for America's Health and the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

"This report reaffirms that obesity is a danger both abundantly clear and almost universally present," said Dr. David L. Katz, director of the Yale University School of Medicine Prevention Research Center, who was not involved in the report. "It truly is a public health crisis of the first order, driving many of the trends in chronic disease, in particular the ever-rising rates of diabetes."

For the fifth year in a row, Mississippi topped the list as the state with the highest rate of adult obesity, at 32.5 percent, according to the report, F as in Fat: How Obesity Policies Are Failing in America 2009.

Besides Mississippi, West Virginia, Alabama and Tennessee have obesity rates above 30 percent. Eight of the 10 states with the highest number of obese adults are in the South. The state with the lowest adult obesity rate is Colorado, at 18.9 percent, according to the report.

In 31 states, obesity rates exceed 25 percent, and in 49 states and Washington, D.C., the rates are above 20 percent.

Overall, two-thirds of American adults are now obese or overweight, according to the report.

 

[Vast LWC]

Adults

Type Uninsured

U.S. citizens 14%

Legal immigrants 24%

Illegal immigrants 59%

OK:

1. This post is completely misleading, as the figures you posted ONLY apply to immigrants, not the general population, so it should read:

Immigrant Adults

Type Uninsured

etc, etc.

2. What is your people's problem with insuring immigrants? They are the hardest working people I know, in general.

You all talk about these people coming over the border as if they just did it to collect welfare, when in fact they come and do hard, nasty jobs that need to be done, but Americans won't stoop to doing.

They're the janitors, crop pickers, babysitters, etc, that do jobs that no-one wants to do cause they don't pay enough.

So yeah, they should have health insurance. Especially if they're the un-washed, un-educated masses you're always accusing them of being! Because if that's true, and they don't have health care, they'll eventually spread pandemics to the rest of us.

 

[jreeves]

Adults

Type Uninsured

U.S. citizens 14%

Legal immigrants 24%

Illegal immigrants 59%

OK:

1. This post is completely misleading, as the figures you posted ONLY apply to immigrants, not the general population, so it should read:

Immigrant Adults

Type Uninsured

etc, etc.

2. What is your people's problem with insuring immigrants? They are the hardest working people I know, in general.

You all talk about these people coming over the border as if they just did it to collect welfare, when in fact they come and do hard, nasty jobs that need to be done, but Americans won't stoop to doing.

They're the janitors, crop pickers, babysitters, etc, that do jobs that no-one wants to do cause they don't pay enough.

So yeah, they should have health insurance. Especially if they're the un-washed, un-educated masses you're always accusing them of being! Because if that's true, and they don't have health care, they'll eventually spread pandemics to the rest of us.

A lot of them don't pay US income tax, so no they shouldn't receive free or reduced cost health care paid for by US income taxes.

 

[Vast LWC]

Overall, two-thirds of American adults are now obese or overweight, according to the report.

Obesity rates have been climbing just as fast in Canada. Just google: Canada, Obesity.

A lot of them don't pay US income tax, so no they shouldn't receive free or reduced cost health care paid for by US income taxes.

But we end up paying for them anyway when they hit the emergency room, and by that time it's too late. And the cost to save someone in a later stage of an illness or injury is usually much higher than catching it in an early stage.



I'd do the research on Canadian Obesity for ya, but it's time I hit the sack. night.

 

[Andrew2382]

Adults

Type Uninsured

U.S. citizens 14%

Legal immigrants 24%

Illegal immigrants 59%

OK:

1. This post is completely misleading, as the figures you posted ONLY apply to immigrants, not the general population, so it should read:

Immigrant Adults

Type Uninsured

etc, etc.

2. What is your people's problem with insuring immigrants? They are the hardest working people I know, in general.

You all talk about these people coming over the border as if they just did it to collect welfare, when in fact they come and do hard, nasty jobs that need to be done, but Americans won't stoop to doing.

They're the janitors, crop pickers, babysitters, etc, that do jobs that no-one wants to do cause they don't pay enough.

So yeah, they should have health insurance. Especially if they're the un-washed, un-educated masses you're always accusing them of being! Because if that's true, and they don't have health care, they'll eventually spread pandemics to the rest of us.

the figures I apply to don't only apply to immigrants.

Thats why they have different labels of people without insurance

Those who are US BORN LEGAL IMMIGRANTS ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS

 

[jreeves]

Overall, two-thirds of American adults are now obese or overweight, according to the report.

Obesity rates have been climbing just as fast in Canada. Just google: Canada, Obesity.

A lot of them don't pay US income tax, so no they shouldn't receive free or reduced cost health care paid for by US income taxes.

But we end up paying for them anyway when they hit the emergency room, and by that time it's too late. And the cost to save someone in a later stage of an illness or injury is usually much higher than catching it in an early stage.



I'd do the research on Canadian Obesity for ya, but it's time I hit the sack. night.

Sure but we are the world's fattest country...

or at least we were.
Australian Bellies Bulge Past America's - Forbes.com
Quietly but surely, more than a quarter of the Australian adult population, 26% of its 15.1 million, has become obese, compared with 25% in the United States, according to a comprehensive survey, titled "Australia’s Future Fat Bomb," released Friday by the Melbourne-based Baker IDI Heart and Diabetes Institute. That would put Australia, a nation associated in the popular imagination with sports and outdoor activity, ahead of America as the world's fattest major country.


Just think we have been in the lead for quite a while, that is until the Aussies plumped up at an alarming rate.