The Problem With Government Unions, TSA Workers

[Oddball]

and laziness doesn't occur in the private sector? Well darn, the private sector should have no ability to improve productivity if laziness did not exist there as well....

both groups have bad apples that they don't replace imo.

Laziness in the private sector doesn't stay employed for very long, and doesn't happen on my dime. Ditto crappy customer service.

Being an AFSCME bureaucrat means never having to work too hard or appreciate the customer.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Do you know how things actually work in an essential position, in the military, or in a government security agency?? I do.. and what you do not need is a union having that kind of power held over jobs involving national security

I know how "things actually work" in a government law enforcement agency (and what doesn't work). I'm curious if you do. Please tell us what you believe.

Laziness is an intangible and therefore rarely allowed as a reason for firing in a union situation.
One falls asleep...maybe. But basic laziness and therefore less efficiency is very difficult to overcome in a termination case....and usually resultrs in a minor reprimand.

That being said...we have lazy people on assembly lines...maybe 1 out of 100 of them (just a guess)....but such is why we open boxes with missing parts. Big deal...they will send us the missing parts.

But you want the chance of one single lazy person involved in national security?

I have been involved in the termination of union represented government employees protected by the Peace Officers Bill of Rights.
Anyone caught sleeping on duty was immediately placed on paid leave, and fired after proper due process (see Skelly & Weingarten rulings).
Discipline starts with verbal notice, documented by a supervisor; followed up by a performance reminder if the verbal notice is not enough. Next, the supervisor under guidance from the manager provides the employee a counseling memo.
If this is still not enough, a written reprimand is given to the employee and becomes a permanent part of thier personnel file.
If the behavior does not change, and the above steps are followed and documented suspension w/o pay or termination is recommended to the hiring authority.
BUT, before any of this happens, a government employee is hired as a probatonary empolyee (most times for one year) and during this time can be terminated without cause. There is no appeal, no union representation or other protection during the time they are on probation.
A permanent peace officer who refuses a lawful order can be placed on leave, and would be placed on leave and given a Skelly Notice under the circumstances suggested above.

I need to add that managers too must supervisor the supervisors and make sure they do their job, in training the new employee, and making sure that the probationary employee is capable of doing the job, willing to comply with policy, and responsive to changes necessary to be an asset to the agency in the future. The supervisor in a govenrment agency is (generally) required to write a monthly evaluation - to be discussed with the probationary employee - and to point out problems which need to be corrected.
All of the above have been negoitiated with unions and professionals associations and apply to all civil servents under the rules of civil service.

 

[Oldandtired]

and laziness doesn't occur in the private sector? Well darn, the private sector should have no ability to improve productivity if laziness did not exist there as well....

both groups have bad apples that they don't replace imo.

When I see a lazy employee, I fire him. No union to stop me...no litigation....no union hearings.

WHen a unionized shop cites an employee for laziness, they must endure 30 days of such laziness before they can begin termination action....and more often than not, such action takes weeks if not months....WHILE THE EMPLOYEE IS STILL ON THE JOB.

SO tell me.......you are OK with a lazy employee sitting around doing a half assed job fopr a couple of months while having the responsibility of national security?

 

[Oldandtired]

I know how "things actually work" in a government law enforcement agency (and what doesn't work). I'm curious if you do. Please tell us what you believe.

Laziness is an intangible and therefore rarely allowed as a reason for firing in a union situation.
One falls asleep...maybe. But basic laziness and therefore less efficiency is very difficult to overcome in a termination case....and usually resultrs in a minor reprimand.

That being said...we have lazy people on assembly lines...maybe 1 out of 100 of them (just a guess)....but such is why we open boxes with missing parts. Big deal...they will send us the missing parts.

But you want the chance of one single lazy person involved in national security?

I have been involved in the termination of union represented government employees protected by the Peace Officers Bill of Rights.
Anyone caught sleeping on duty was immediately placed on paid leave, and fired after proper due process (see Skelly & Weingarten rulings).
Discipline starts with verbal notice, documented by a supervisor; followed up by a performance reminder if the verbal notice is not enough. Next, the supervisor under guidance from the manager provides the employee a counseling memo.
If this is still not enough, a written reprimand is given to the employee and becomes a permanent part of thier personnel file.
If the behavior does not change, and the above steps are followed and documented suspension w/o pay or termination is recommended to the hiring authority.
BUT, before any of this happens, a government employee is hired as a probatonary empolyee (most times for one year) and during this time can be terminated without cause. There is no appeal, no union representation or other protection during the time they are on probation.
A permanent peace officer who refuses a lawful order can be placed on leave, and would be placed on leave and given a Skelly Notice under the circumstances suggested above.

Based on what you say......A lot of people can die before the lazy employee is fired.
Not referring to one that falls asleep....simply referring to the one that "cuts corners".
That OK with you?

 

[noose4]

and laziness doesn't occur in the private sector? Well darn, the private sector should have no ability to improve productivity if laziness did not exist there as well....

both groups have bad apples that they don't replace imo.

When I see a lazy employee, I fire him. No union to stop me...no litigation....no union hearings.

WHen a unionized shop cites an employee for laziness, they must endure 30 days of such laziness before they can begin termination action....and more often than not, such action takes weeks if not months....WHILE THE EMPLOYEE IS STILL ON THE JOB.

SO tell me.......you are OK with a lazy employee sitting around doing a half assed job fopr a couple of months while having the responsibility of national security?

I am ok with the accused having a right to a fair hearing and not being dumped like used up trash at the whim of a supervisor.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

The TSA is a real mess at this point. The guy this administration wants to run the TSA has already been caught lying to Congress. He also wants to unionize the TSA. This guy cannot be confirmed. In my opinion he would prove to be even worse than Napolitano is running Homeland Security. It would be a massive blunder if this guy gets confirmed. This administration looks like it's in real trouble. They have put an awful lot of incompetent people in very high ranking positions. This is now clearly coming back to haunt them.

 

[Oldandtired]

and laziness doesn't occur in the private sector? Well darn, the private sector should have no ability to improve productivity if laziness did not exist there as well....

both groups have bad apples that they don't replace imo.

When I see a lazy employee, I fire him. No union to stop me...no litigation....no union hearings.

WHen a unionized shop cites an employee for laziness, they must endure 30 days of such laziness before they can begin termination action....and more often than not, such action takes weeks if not months....WHILE THE EMPLOYEE IS STILL ON THE JOB.

SO tell me.......you are OK with a lazy employee sitting around doing a half assed job fopr a couple of months while having the responsibility of national security?

I am ok with the accused having a right to a fair hearing and not being dumped like used up trash at the whim of a supervisor.

You see where your thinking is?
Already, you are assuming the lazy worker is a victim and the supervisor trats him as trash.
I got news for you...

IT IS NOT A WRITTEN LAW THAT ALL SHOULD WORK AS EFFICIENTLY AS THEY ARE HIRED TO WORK......IT IS BASIC LOGIC.

Most lazy employees are lazy as they believe they can get away with it.....not becuase they assumed it was OK to be lazy.

And union employees are aware that they have people thinking as you do....and so they are evewn more likely to act lazy (the ones that want to be lazy...not all).

 

[noose4]

When I see a lazy employee, I fire him. No union to stop me...no litigation....no union hearings.

WHen a unionized shop cites an employee for laziness, they must endure 30 days of such laziness before they can begin termination action....and more often than not, such action takes weeks if not months....WHILE THE EMPLOYEE IS STILL ON THE JOB.

SO tell me.......you are OK with a lazy employee sitting around doing a half assed job fopr a couple of months while having the responsibility of national security?

I am ok with the accused having a right to a fair hearing and not being dumped like used up trash at the whim of a supervisor.

You see where your thinking is?
Already, you are assuming the lazy worker is a victim and the supervisor trats him as trash.
I got news for you...

IT IS NOT A WRITTEN LAW THAT ALL SHOULD WORK AS EFFICIENTLY AS THEY ARE HIRED TO WORK......IT IS BASIC LOGIC.

Most lazy employees are lazy as they believe they can get away with it.....not becuase they assumed it was OK to be lazy.

You see where your thinking is? you assume guilt before a fair hearing, thus giving supervisors dictatorial power over the workers.

 

[Big Fitz]

The biggest problem IMHO is that the people they negotiate with for benefits and wages are NOT the people paying them. To remove this rather critical flaw, all government wages must require either a government referendum or they have to be paid by the politicians out of budgets given to them individually.

 

[bodecea]

and laziness doesn't occur in the private sector? Well darn, the private sector should have no ability to improve productivity if laziness did not exist there as well....

both groups have bad apples that they don't replace imo.

When I see a lazy employee, I fire him. No union to stop me...no litigation....no union hearings.

WHen a unionized shop cites an employee for laziness, they must endure 30 days of such laziness before they can begin termination action....and more often than not, such action takes weeks if not months....WHILE THE EMPLOYEE IS STILL ON THE JOB.

SO tell me.......you are OK with a lazy employee sitting around doing a half assed job fopr a couple of months while having the responsibility of national security?

In your business, what protects the employee from being fired under false accusations or for spurious reasons such as political bent?

 

[Navy1960]

The next few weeks are critical in our campaign to represent workers at TSA. It is imperative that Erroll Southers be confirmed as Assistant DHS Secretary for TSA as soon as possible. TSA cannot implement the significant workplace improvements for which AFGE has been advocating on behalf of TSOs (including collective bargaining rights) until he is confirmed. We are aware that Senator DeMint (R-SC) has put a “hold” on Southers’ confirmation. AFGE is working with Senate Democrats and is supportive of their efforts to resolve any issues surrounding the nomination so that Southers can be confirmed quickly.

AFGE knows that our work for the swift confirmation of Erroll Southers and ongoing negotiations with TSA are the quickest way to implement the workplace rights and protections TSOs desperately need. It is equally important that legislation making these rights and protections permanent be passed by both the House and the Senate and signed into law by the President. To this end, AFGE is working a parallel process designed to have collective bargaining rights and other workplace protections awarded to TSOs quickly and permanently.
Transporation Security Administration Union,TSA Employees Union, TSA Employees, Airport Security - AFGE - On Your Side From the Begining -

Not only is the to word safety hard to find in Union statement it neglects to mention that Federal employee's by law have no right to strike and even to hint at doing so will result in another PATCO. All this is , is an attempt to secure more Union dues from a Union that has lost a LOT of membership since 1989 to forward a national political agenda. In fact in the Federal system because of it's legal nature a Union is more like a dues paying club more than an actual Union and has little power because, a person cannot be compelled to join a Union as means of employment and as mentioned nor can they strike.

 

[Oldandtired]

I am ok with the accused having a right to a fair hearing and not being dumped like used up trash at the whim of a supervisor.

You see where your thinking is?
Already, you are assuming the lazy worker is a victim and the supervisor trats him as trash.
I got news for you...

IT IS NOT A WRITTEN LAW THAT ALL SHOULD WORK AS EFFICIENTLY AS THEY ARE HIRED TO WORK......IT IS BASIC LOGIC.

Most lazy employees are lazy as they believe they can get away with it.....not becuase they assumed it was OK to be lazy.

You see where your thinking is? you assume guilt before a fair hearing, thus giving supervisors dictatorial power over the workers.

Supervisors are promoted to supervisors based on their ability to ensure efficiency of their given department.
If a supervisor says "he must go"....why do you simply assume it is on a whim?
Why must anyone spend money and time on a hearing?
No one forced that guy to take the job.
Your thinking is really way off........people like you scare the hell out of me.
A supervoisor is a dictator becuase he does his job and identifies inefficiency and takes action.
Debating people like you is a waste of time. Everyone else is guilty.....you are way off with your thinking. I would do something about it if I were you.

 

[Oldandtired]

and laziness doesn't occur in the private sector? Well darn, the private sector should have no ability to improve productivity if laziness did not exist there as well....

both groups have bad apples that they don't replace imo.

When I see a lazy employee, I fire him. No union to stop me...no litigation....no union hearings.

WHen a unionized shop cites an employee for laziness, they must endure 30 days of such laziness before they can begin termination action....and more often than not, such action takes weeks if not months....WHILE THE EMPLOYEE IS STILL ON THE JOB.

SO tell me.......you are OK with a lazy employee sitting around doing a half assed job fopr a couple of months while having the responsibility of national security?

In your business, what protects the employee from being fired under false accusations or for spurious reasons such as political bent?

I do not promote someone to the level of being able to fire someone unless I am confident that they will do the right job for me. There are some pretty expensive ramifications to firing someone. I do not consider it something that someone does on a whim....and if I did, I would fire the supervisor.

 

[noose4]

You see where your thinking is?
Already, you are assuming the lazy worker is a victim and the supervisor trats him as trash.
I got news for you...

IT IS NOT A WRITTEN LAW THAT ALL SHOULD WORK AS EFFICIENTLY AS THEY ARE HIRED TO WORK......IT IS BASIC LOGIC.

Most lazy employees are lazy as they believe they can get away with it.....not becuase they assumed it was OK to be lazy.

You see where your thinking is? you assume guilt before a fair hearing, thus giving supervisors dictatorial power over the workers.

Supervisors are promoted to supervisors based on their ability to ensure efficiency of their given department.
If a supervisor says "he must go"....why do you simply assume it is on a whim?
Why must anyone spend money and time on a hearing?
No one forced that guy to take the job.
Your thinking is really way off........people like you scare the hell out of me.
A supervoisor is a dictator becuase he does his job and identifies inefficiency and takes action.
Debating people like you is a waste of time. Everyone else is guilty.....you are way off with your thinking. I would do something about it if I were you.

I see you have never worked in an environment where a person gets a promotion due to office politics or nepotism rather than merit, it is not unheard of for a supervisor singling out somebody who may be a decent worker but they just dont like him or her, I will rely on the fair hearing over giving either party the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Big Fitz]

Another major problem with unions is that after they have become entrenched, they protect incompetence.

 

[Oldandtired]

You see where your thinking is? you assume guilt before a fair hearing, thus giving supervisors dictatorial power over the workers.

Supervisors are promoted to supervisors based on their ability to ensure efficiency of their given department.
If a supervisor says "he must go"....why do you simply assume it is on a whim?
Why must anyone spend money and time on a hearing?
No one forced that guy to take the job.
Your thinking is really way off........people like you scare the hell out of me.
A supervoisor is a dictator becuase he does his job and identifies inefficiency and takes action.
Debating people like you is a waste of time. Everyone else is guilty.....you are way off with your thinking. I would do something about it if I were you.

I see you have never worked in an environment where a person gets a promotion due to office politics or nepotism rather than merit, it is not unheard of for a supervisor singling out somebody who may be a decent worker but they just dont like him or her, I will rely on the fair hearing over giving either party the benefit of the doubt.

Oh...I see......so for the few situations where what you say actually happens, ALL should spend the time and money casting doubt on their higher level employees who were hired FOR THEIR EXPERTISE.

I just dont get how you think. If you have such doubt in Americans....YOU ARE FREE TO LEAVE.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

No Republican should vote in favor of confirming this administration's nominee to run the TSA. If they do vote in favor of him,they should be immediately impeached or certainly voted out of office as soon as possible. The guy has already been caught for lying to Congress and wants to Unionize the TSA. This administration better come up with someone better than this guy. Lets hope they do.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Laziness is an intangible and therefore rarely allowed as a reason for firing in a union situation.
One falls asleep...maybe. But basic laziness and therefore less efficiency is very difficult to overcome in a termination case....and usually resultrs in a minor reprimand.

That being said...we have lazy people on assembly lines...maybe 1 out of 100 of them (just a guess)....but such is why we open boxes with missing parts. Big deal...they will send us the missing parts.

But you want the chance of one single lazy person involved in national security?

I have been involved in the termination of union represented government employees protected by the Peace Officers Bill of Rights.
Anyone caught sleeping on duty was immediately placed on paid leave, and fired after proper due process (see Skelly & Weingarten rulings).
Discipline starts with verbal notice, documented by a supervisor; followed up by a performance reminder if the verbal notice is not enough. Next, the supervisor under guidance from the manager provides the employee a counseling memo.
If this is still not enough, a written reprimand is given to the employee and becomes a permanent part of thier personnel file.
If the behavior does not change, and the above steps are followed and documented suspension w/o pay or termination is recommended to the hiring authority.
BUT, before any of this happens, a government employee is hired as a probatonary empolyee (most times for one year) and during this time can be terminated without cause. There is no appeal, no union representation or other protection during the time they are on probation.
A permanent peace officer who refuses a lawful order can be placed on leave, and would be placed on leave and given a Skelly Notice under the circumstances suggested above.

Based on what you say......A lot of people can' die before the lazy employee is fired.
Not referring to one that falls asleep....simply referring to the one that "cuts corners".
That OK with you?

Of course not, if someone puts other employees or those we serve in jeopardy they were moved into 'light duty' jobs during our investigation. Also, if someone "cuts corners" other represented employees (the lazy persons peers) must pick up the slack. A call to the business agent from the manager usually results in a good business agent calling in the slacker and having a heart to heart.
Actually, in the jail if a deputy fell asleep he was fired. That everyone supports (except for the sleeper) because it puts everyone at risk.

 

[noose4]

Supervisors are promoted to supervisors based on their ability to ensure efficiency of their given department.
If a supervisor says "he must go"....why do you simply assume it is on a whim?
Why must anyone spend money and time on a hearing?
No one forced that guy to take the job.
Your thinking is really way off........people like you scare the hell out of me.
A supervoisor is a dictator becuase he does his job and identifies inefficiency and takes action.
Debating people like you is a waste of time. Everyone else is guilty.....you are way off with your thinking. I would do something about it if I were you.

I see you have never worked in an environment where a person gets a promotion due to office politics or nepotism rather than merit, it is not unheard of for a supervisor singling out somebody who may be a decent worker but they just dont like him or her, I will rely on the fair hearing over giving either party the benefit of the doubt.

Oh...I see......so for the few situations where what you say actually happens, ALL should spend the time and money casting doubt on their higher level employees who were hired FOR THEIR EXPERTISE.

I just dont get how you think. If you have such doubt in Americans....YOU ARE FREE TO LEAVE.

The worker getting fired is an American also, you dont like workers having rights you should retire, 1890 was a long time ago.

 

[Granny]

Screw the unions - they should all be abolished. They cause more problems than they solve. "Dues" are more like "fees" that members must pay in order to have a job - no one should have to pay for the right to work and support themselves and their families. On top of that unions are just sleezy operations to begin with.

You get some lazy assed member smoking next to oxygen tanks and the company fires him and "Waaaa waaaa - they didn't give me any verbal warnings, waaa-waaa they didn't give me any written warnings ...." Hell, no - they fired your ass before you blew up everybody in the plant. Unions drive up costs to consumers - the companies have to get money from somewhere in order to support union demands. The unions have the NLRB on their side - companies have to pay lawyers out the wazoo to defend them against union bullshit. And on and on. When these unions go on strike, the company should dismiss every one of the strikers and replace them with new employees - because they can do that.

Thank God I always worked in right-to-work states or in jobs that were non-union.

As for the private sector being better at management, you're damned right. They have to account for their business decisions, finances, etc. The government has a bottomless pit of other people's money and doesn't have to account for a dime of it. If the government got rid of about 2/3 of it's employees and actually put the rest in a position of having to work it would be doing everybody a favor and saving a boat-load of wasted tax dollars.