The plot to kill Trump

That's a lie. The 1986 Kellerman study, the source of the famous "43 to 1" ratio, is deceptive in several ways. The basis for comparison in this study is the ratio of "firearm-related deaths" of household members vs. deaths of criminals killed in the home (justifiable homicides). The "firearm-related deaths" in the study include suicides and accidents, neither of which are randomly distributed throughout the population, as the 43 to 1 "risk ratio" would imply. Both suicides and accidents are more likely to occur in specific categories of people than they are in the general population. Of the 398 "firearm-related deaths" included in the study, the vast majority (333, or, 84%) were suicides. The number of fatal firearms accidents in the study was 12 (or 3% of the studied deaths). Since sometimes a "gun cleaning accident" is actually a suicide reported under a name less likely to deny payment from a life insurance company, there may in fact have been even fewer accidents than are apparent from the reporting. When only the criminal homicides are considered, rather than including suicides and accidents, the "43 to 1" ratio disappears, and the ratio is far less dramatic, more like "4.5 to 1". There were 41 criminal homicides reported in the Kellerman study, and 9 instances of justifiable or self-defense homicide. People who are violent, unbalanced, or involved in a life of crime are much more likely to use their home gun unwisely, and their chances of using it to harm another (or themselves) are higher than would be expected for the majority of the population.

Thank you much for the NRA Mantra on Kellerman, but the number still stands. A gun in the home is far more dangerous to those in the home than a bad guy.

I know two people who committed suicide by gun. If a gun hadn't been available, they might well be with us still.
 
Thank you much for the NRA Mantra on Kellerman, but the number still stands. A gun in the home is far more dangerous to those in the home than a bad guy.

I know two people who committed suicide by gun. If a gun hadn't been available, they might well be with us still.
You used deceptive information numbnuts.
Dumbass they would have killed themselves one way or another. I had a high school class mate that made his one shot firearm and killed himself back in 1979. And his family didn't have any guns in the home
 
You used deceptive information numbnuts.
Dumbass they would have killed themselves one way or another. I had a high school class mate that made his one shot firearm and killed himself back in 1979. And his family didn't have any guns in the home

That you had to go back to 1979 to find an example shows how rare that was.
 
That you had to go back to 1979 to find an example shows how rare that was.
No I went back that far because that was from personal experience. I've seen people kill themselves with drugs, blades, poisons, jumping from bridges jumping from top of buildings, cars, suicide by cop. it's very common. But do keep using that fake data and I'll keep embarrassing your ass
 
No I went back that far because that was from personal experience. I've seen people kill themselves with drugs, blades, poisons, jumping from bridges jumping from top of buildings, cars, suicide by cop. it's very common. But do keep using that fake data and I'll keep embarrassing your ass

Except it's not fake data. A gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a household member than a bad guy.

Now, true they could take drugs, but with drugs, you can rush them to a hospital and get their stomach pumped. You can patch up a knife wound. A gun suicide is almost always fatal.
 
Except it's not fake data. A gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a household member than a bad guy.

Now, true they could take drugs, but with drugs, you can rush them to a hospital and get their stomach pumped. You can patch up a knife wound. A gun suicide is almost always fatal.
Yes the 43 number came from the Kellerman study. And is deceptive.
 
Thank you much for the NRA Mantra on Kellerman, but the number still stands. A gun in the home is far more dangerous to those in the home than a bad guy.

I know two people who committed suicide by gun. If a gun hadn't been available, they might well be with us still.
Or they could have jumped off a bridge.
 
Yes the 43 number came from the Kellerman study. And is deceptive.
Nope, it's accurate.

Probably if anything, Keller understated the problem.

We have 25,000 gun suicides and 16,000 gun homicides every year.

But we only have 200 or so that are ruled "Justified" by civilians. (And another 1000 by LE that are ruled justified, but I take that with a grain of salt, given how hard it is to convict a cop of murder.)
 
Nope, it's accurate.

Probably if anything, Keller understated the problem.

We have 25,000 gun suicides and 16,000 gun homicides every year.

But we only have 200 or so that are ruled "Justified" by civilians. (And another 1000 by LE that are ruled justified, but I take that with a grain of salt, given how hard it is to convict a cop of murder.)
Sad that you keep using fake data get slammed for it and still try to say it's right.
 
Nope, it's accurate.

Probably if anything, Keller understated the problem.

We have 25,000 gun suicides and 16,000 gun homicides every year.

But we only have 200 or so that are ruled "Justified" by civilians. (And another 1000 by LE that are ruled justified, but I take that with a grain of salt, given how hard it is to convict a cop of murder.)
But we only have 200 or so that are ruled "Justified" by civilians.

Joe wants to condemn those 200 to death
 
Sad that you keep using fake data get slammed for it and still try to say it's right.

Except you haven't proven it's fake. You just scream, "I don't want it be true!!!!" by saying that suicides shouldn't count.

Here's a simple solution. Let's take EVERY GUN DEATH in a given year.

Let's put them in the following categories.

Suicides - About 25,000
Accidents - about 800.
Murder by Stranger ????
Murder by Family Member or acquaintance ?????
Murder by Police - About 1000.
Justified murder by civilians. - 200

We know that there are about 16,000 gun murders a year, less the 1200 justified ones.. So "Stranger" vs. "Family Member" divides the 14,800 that are left.

Let's say for sake of argument, that they are half and half.

So we have -

25,000 gun suicides + 7400 Domestic murers + 800 Accidents / 200 Justified homicdes

It's a much bigger number than the 43:1 number Kellerman came up with.
 
Except you haven't proven it's fake. You just scream, "I don't want it be true!!!!" by saying that suicides shouldn't count.

Here's a simple solution. Let's take EVERY GUN DEATH in a given year.

Let's put them in the following categories.

Suicides - About 25,000
Accidents - about 800.
Murder by Stranger ????
Murder by Family Member or acquaintance ?????
Murder by Police - About 1000.
Justified murder by civilians. - 200

We know that there are about 16,000 gun murders a year, less the 1200 justified ones.. So "Stranger" vs. "Family Member" divides the 14,800 that are left.

Let's say for sake of argument, that they are half and half.

So we have -

25,000 gun suicides + 7400 Domestic murers + 800 Accidents / 200 Justified homicdes

It's a much bigger number than the 43:1 number Kellerman came up with.
I've debunked your fake data already.
 
Again, keep working on that learning disability. You might want to start with math.
I dont want any honest citizen to die because you took their gun away
 
I've debunked your fake data already.
No, you stomped your little feet and whined you didn't want it to be true.

I dont want any honest citizen to die because you took their gun away

I don't want school children rolled out in body bags because they gave a gun to someone who had no business having one.

DGU's are a myth.
 
No, you stomped your little feet and whined you didn't want it to be true.



I don't want school children rolled out in body bags because they gave a gun to someone who had no business having one.

DGU's are a myth.
You think guns are the problem behind school shootings

But they arent

Take away the guns and you still have crazed killers in our society
 
You think guns are the problem behind school shootings

But they arent

Take away the guns and you still have crazed killers in our society

Um, sure. But they won't be able to kill a whole classroom full of kids, that's the point.

Again, you need to work on that learning disability.
 
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