The Palestinian Tragedy.

[gipper]

I cant see it the way you do

Israel is a decent, civilized nation and people

The palestinians are none of that

They murder, rape, and torture people

Hamas calls themselves freedom fighters yet they hide in hospitals and schools

And they are financed by the worst terrorist country on the planet that is vowed to destroy Israel and after that the Great Satan, aka America

Not to mention that Israel is was legally created by UN resolution and has a right to exist

Duped.

 

[Shusha]

Because Jews living on Palestinian land have the bad habit of murdering their Arab neighbors and destroying their property.

Easy enough to POT/KETTLE that response, but I'm going to go back to your original comment which was:

The single most overwhelming item of evidence of Israel’s rejection of peace is, of course, the settlements project.

Your original claim was NOT that Jewish violence was the obstacle to peace. Your original claim was that Jewish presence in Judea was the obstacle to peace. Did you want to revise your claim? Or did you want to address my actual point? Which was:

The notion that Jews living in Judea is an offence so egregious that it renders peace impossible is one of the more ridiculous ideas held by the international community...

It is the Arab declaration that they can not and will not live in the presence of the "other" that perpetuates conflict.

 

[Shusha]

(3), larger war against the justifiably embittered Islamic World.

If I recall correctly, you have consistently requested civility in discussion, a quality I find admirable. Thus, rather than pose the obvious sarcastic response, I would invite you to expand on this statement for clarity.

 

[Shusha]

Because Jews living on Palestinian land have the bad habit of murdering their Arab neighbors and destroying their property.

Approaching this claim from another direction...

Do you think an Arab Palestinian State, with a sizeable Jewish population, would be capable of policing ALL of her equal citizens to an acceptable ethical and legal standard? If yes, what evidence would you give to support your claim?

 

[Grau]

Easy enough to POT/KETTLE that response, but I'm going to go back to your original comment which was:


Your original claim was NOT that Jewish violence was the obstacle to peace. Your original claim was that Jewish presence in Judea was the obstacle to peace. Did you want to revise your claim? Or did you want to address my actual point? Which was:

I'll try to address your 3 refreshingly civil responses today as time permits.

First, Re: Pot / Kettle, It seemed like Arabs and Jews had coexisted in Palestine in relative peace at least according to the British Hope - Simpson Report of 1930 which asserts that Jews and Arabs lived together in relative peace until the invasion of foreign Zionist terrorist gangs who wanted Palestine and more for their Arab free, "Greater Israel".
That same document reported that native Palestinian Arabs and native Palestinian Jews frequently socialized and worked together well so I don't see why they couldn't do so again.

In other words, I see no reason at all why well intentioned Jews and Arabs could not resume that mutually beneficial relationship. There are certainly no shortage of generous and outspoken Jews who are trying to ease the misery in Gaza and condemn what some call a genocide (1).
I can certainly envision and support Jews like that living among Palestinians in Palestinian territory as long as they are treated equally unlike under Israel's "Nationality / Citizenship Law".

Finally, fewer things would make me happier than to see Jews and Arabs peacefully co-exist however they choose: one state, two states with all citizens enjoying equal treatment.

I hope I've clarified my sentiments and please let me know if I havent'

Thanks,

(1). “Jews Against Genocide statement and action”

Jews Against Genocide statement and action | IJAN

www.ijan.org

EXCERPT “We, Jews Against Genocide, came to Yad Vashem, Israel’s memorial of the genocide committed against Jews, to honor the Palestinian children who are dying in a genocide committed by Jews.

We brought dolls to symbolise the children of Gaza, and tried to bring a glimpse of the horror that Gazan’s face, to Israel’s doorstep. We hope to show Israel, and the world, the absurd reality of using the memory of one genocide to justify another.” CONTINUED

 

[Sunni Man]

I think you are demonstrating why kids in my old neighborhood used "Jew" as a verb.

I grew up in the southwest and a common saying if a person was cheated in a transaction was, "I got Jew'd" or "Don't Jew me".

 

[Mac-7]

The Jews bought the land they settled on

There was a chance for peace but the Pals rejected it

We seem to agree on many things but not this

 

[Grau]

If I recall correctly, you have consistently requested civility in discussion, a quality I find admirable. Thus, rather than pose the obvious sarcastic response, I would invite you to expand on this statement for clarity.

Yes, I have expressed a desire for civil exchanges because we're all here for enjoyment so why be snarky?

Anyway, you asked that I clarify my fear of the egregious slaughter in Gaza developing into a wider conflict.

I can think of no greater recruitment ploy for anti Israel - anti US terrorist groups than to aid and abet in the Gaza genocide.

Many in the radical Islamic world will remember that the free bombs given to Israel to drop on Palestinian refugee camps were "Made in America" and may feel that Americans need to share in the suffering.

Another way that I fear young American G.I.s will be sent to soak distant soil with American blood is through the machinations of the current war mongering Netanyahu government like the Iraq War. (1), (2)

It's worth remembering that Israeli governments have run False Flag Ops on the US since the Lavon Affair in the 1950s so it would be naive to ignore history when the stakes are so high.

I've spent enough around bodies mutilated by modern munitions and in V.A. Hospitals so that I strongly oppose the elements in the Israeli government who want to manipulate America more deeply into being a participant in the Gaza genocide.

It is also worth considering that the Islamic world is strengthening ties with China, Russia and similar BRIC nations who would be formidable adversaries in a US & Israel vs BRIC & etc conflict sparked by Gaza.

Big wars have started over less compelling causes.

Thanks,






(1). “QUIETLY LOBBYING CONGRESS TO APPROVE THE USE OF FORCE IN IRAQ WAS ONE OF AIPAC’S SUCCESSES OVER THE PAST YEAR.”
AIPAC Executive Director Howard Kohr; N.Y. Sun, Jan. 2003


(2). "Top Pentagon adviser says ‘Israeli lobby’ funds officials who want war"

"Douglas Macgregor blamed pro-Israel policy for driving the United States into the Iraq conflict after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks,"

Top Pentagon adviser says ‘Israeli lobby’ funds officials who want war

Douglas Macgregor blamed pro-Israel policy for driving the United States into the Iraq conflict after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks,

www.jpost.com

EXCERPT "Douglas Macgregor, a top adviser to President Donald Trump’s new acting defense secretary, routinely blames “the Israeli lobby” and “neocons” for pushing the United States into wars.

CNN’s KFile uncovered interviews in which Macgregor, a decorated combat veteran who appears frequently on Fox News and other conservative media, says “pro-Israel” donors and the pro-Israel lobby are behind efforts to drive the United States into war." CONTINUED

 

[MJB12741]

A long read.

Yet rather than try to understand what exactly is going on, and untangle the threads of this knotted conflict, it is once again being presented as a simple clash of good against evil.

Israelis are frequently presented as the new Nazis, supporters of genocide, advocates of apartheid and child-killers. The fact that the typical Israeli might be a regular human being, who is no more flawed than the average person, is effaced in this worldview. And the possibility that Israelis might have good reasons to fear for their lives is also ignored by too many self-proclaimed advocates for Palestine.

But it is no more helpful in our understanding of this conflict to assume contemporary Palestinian grievances are simply motivated by age-old anti-Semitism. Those who take this view see Palestinian resentment towards Israel as at best irrational. This misses the fact that there are genuine and varying reasons why the average Palestinian – as opposed to the political activist – might feel animosity towards Israel. In the West Bank, for example, freedom of movement is often severely curtailed by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF). And in Gaza Israel withdrew its forces in 2005, but Israel continues to control Gaza’s airspace, as well as most of its land borders – although it should be noted that Egypt controls the land border with the adjoining Sinai peninsula.

Concludes with…​

In the late 19th century, leading German Social Democrats astutely referred to anti-Semitism as ‘the socialism of fools’. They argued that, despite its sometimes radical sheen, anti-Semitism was a thoroughly reactionary movement.

In a similar way, those Western radicals and leftists who give succour to the Hamas worldview are guilty of pursuing the anti-imperialism of fools. They might think they are being radical and humanistic, but they are helping to propagate the worldview of a thoroughly reactionary political movement.

The Palestinian tragedy

Hamas has turned a national liberation movement into a neverending jihad against Israel.

www.spiked-online.com

I believe the greatest Palestinian tragedy is & always has been their leadership beginning with 'ole Yassar who got them massacred over & over again by their own Arab brothers, embezelled their money & died from Aids. Then came the PA to reject all peace offerings by Israel & now Hamas causing Israel to have to kill Palestinians by the tens of thousands to root out the terrorists.

 

[Grau]

Approaching this claim from another direction...

Do you think an Arab Palestinian State, with a sizeable Jewish population, would be capable of policing ALL of her equal citizens to an acceptable ethical and legal standard? If yes, what evidence would you give to support your claim?

At the moment, hostility is so pervasive that I don't think that Jews. would be well received under Palestinian rule.
Additionally, I don't think that ANY state can police ALL of her equal citizens to an acceptable ethical and legal standard but what made the article I cited noteworthy was the fact that IDF members participated(2) in the killing and destruction and that it happened to West Bank Palestinians who had nothing to do with 7 October.

Briefly put, Jews and Arabs have shown that they can co exist but no one could live with Zionist Settlers and their weaponized raw sewage...........Would you?


(1). "Israel Must Loudly Arrest the Murderous West Bank Settlers"

Israel Must Loudly Arrest the Settlers Who Are Killing West Bank Palestinians

Or risk losing any moral authority in this war.

slate.com

3, November 2023

EXCERPT "Since Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack, settlers there have killed more than 120 Palestinians and injured at least 2,000. They have forcibly expelled more than 800 Palestinians from their homes, blown up their generators and solar panels, and burned down tents of Bedouin herders.

Again: This has been going on not in Gaza but in the West Bank—which is governed by the Palestinian Authority, not by Hamas." CONTINUED

(2). "Lines Increasingly Blurred Between Soldiers and Settlers in the West Bank​

Israeli attacks on Palestinians there have surged since the Israel-Hamas war began."​

Lines Increasingly Blurred Between Soldiers and Settlers in the West Bank

Israeli attacks on Palestinians there have surged since the Israel-Hamas war began.

foreignpolicy.com

EXCERPT "The violence itself is not new, but two things are worth watching. As the attacks spread, there’s growing evidence that soldiers and settlers are working hand in hand. And there are signs that settlers are increasingly worried about a political shift after the war in Gaza—and trying to change the West Bank landscape while they can."
CONTINUED

 

[Shusha]

I'll try to address your 3 refreshingly civil responses today as time permits.

First, Re: Pot / Kettle, It seemed like Arabs and Jews had coexisted in Palestine in relative peace at least according to the British Hope - Simpson Report of 1930 which asserts that Jews and Arabs lived together in relative peace until the invasion of foreign Zionist terrorist gangs who wanted Palestine and more for their Arab free, "Greater Israel".
That same document reported that native Palestinian Arabs and native Palestinian Jews frequently socialized and worked together well so I don't see why they couldn't do so again.

In other words, I see no reason at all why well intentioned Jews and Arabs could not resume that mutually beneficial relationship. There are certainly no shortage of generous and outspoken Jews who are trying to ease the misery in Gaza and condemn what some call a genocide (1).
I can certainly envision and support Jews like that living among Palestinians in Palestinian territory as long as they are treated equally unlike under Israel's "Nationality / Citizenship Law".

Finally, fewer things would make me happier than to see Jews and Arabs peacefully co-exist however they choose: one state, two states with all citizens enjoying equal treatment.

I hope I've clarified my sentiments and please let me know if I havent'

Thanks,

(1). “Jews Against Genocide statement and action”

Jews Against Genocide statement and action | IJAN

www.ijan.org

EXCERPT “We, Jews Against Genocide, came to Yad Vashem, Israel’s memorial of the genocide committed against Jews, to honor the Palestinian children who are dying in a genocide committed by Jews.

We brought dolls to symbolise the children of Gaza, and tried to bring a glimpse of the horror that Gazan’s face, to Israel’s doorstep. We hope to show Israel, and the world, the absurd reality of using the memory of one genocide to justify another.” CONTINUED

That clarifies things nicely. I THINK we agree that Jews living in a State of Palestine (even as a substantial percentage of the population) is not an obstacle to peace. It may even be the path to peace. I would encourage those of us in the West to stop suggesting to Arabs (who would like to one day be Palestinians) that places where Jews live can't become part of the State of Palestine and that Jews can't become valued and equal citizens of Palestine. Isn't that what peace should look like?

 

[Shusha]

Yes, I have expressed a desire for civil exchanges because we're all here for enjoyment so why be snarky?

I also enjoy civil and thoughtful exchanges, but admit occasional snark can be both fun and effective. Grin.

Anyway, you asked that I clarify my fear of the egregious slaughter in Gaza developing into a wider conflict.

Actually, I was asking more about clarification on the language you used. Specifically:

the justifiably embittered Islamic World.

How do you define the "Islamic World" and why would you consider them "justifiably embittered"?

 

[Shusha]

At the moment, hostility is so pervasive that I don't think that Jews. would be well received under Palestinian rule.

Sure. I get that. But as a thought experiment, separating individuals from state-building and governments...

Would the government of a State of Palestine be willing, capable, and effective in creating a state where Arabs and Jews were equal citizens?

that it happened to West Bank Palestinians who had nothing to do with 7 October.

I've said this before, I'm going to keep saying it. Many don't seem to be able to understand how the world changed for the Jewish people on October 7. The world has changed everywhere: pogroms in LA; shooting Jewish children in Toronto; gang-rape of 12-year-old in France; genocidal chants in Australia; public calls to "normalize the massacres" (of Jews) in London. We don't know when, or where, or how we are going to be attacked next. Everything has to do with 7 October.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I grew up in the southwest and a common saying if a person was cheated in a transaction was, "I got Jew'd" or "Don't Jew me".

And with that mindset, you are clearly incapable of understanding what is happening in the ME.

 

[Sunni Man]

And with that mindset, you are clearly incapable of understanding what is happening in the ME.

Now you're just being silly.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Now you're just being silly.

After confessing to being a raving antisemite, it is just silly of you to claim you are capable of fairly assessing what it going on in the ME.

 

[Sunni Man]

After confessing to being a raving antisemite

Now you're just making stuff up.
I'm not the least bit anti-semitic.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Now you're just making stuff up.
I'm not the least bit anti-semitic.

Now that is just silly.

 

[Grau]

Sure. I get that. But as a thought experiment, separating individuals from state-building and governments...

Would the government of a State of Palestine be willing, capable, and effective in creating a state where Arabs and Jews were equal citizens?

I've said this before, I'm going to keep saying it. Many don't seem to be able to understand how the world changed for the Jewish people on October 7. The world has changed everywhere: pogroms in LA; shooting Jewish children in Toronto; gang-rape of 12-year-old in France; genocidal chants in Australia; public calls to "normalize the massacres" (of Jews) in London. We don't know when, or where, or how we are going to be attacked next. Everything has to do with 7 October.

Re: Would the government of a State of Palestine be willing, capable, and effective in creating a state where Arabs and Jews were equal citizens?

I would like to think that some time in the future that a Palestinian / Arab government would be capable of treating its Jewish and Arabic population fairly and equally.

However, as you have stressed, much has changed for Jews around the world since 7 October 2023 and I fear that things will only get worse for the world's Jews the longer Netanyahu carries out his genocidal agenda.

Among the reasons that I oppose draconian, right wing and racist Zionist governments is that the cruelty done by Jews in Israel - Palestine frequently results in cruelty done to innocent Jews elsewhere in the world.

I fear that anti Jewish sentiment will only increase as the Netanyahu government's genocide in Gaza continues and the widespread misery in Gaza becomes more widely known.

Because I have lived and worked in high crime neighborhoods, I am no stranger to the anxiety of feeling that I could have been attacked at any moment. There were at least 3 instances when I had to deploy a firearm against individuals whose intentions did not include meaning with me or my neighbors any happier, healthier or wealthier.

I now live with my wife's in her Grandparent's old farmhouse in a rural area and have my target range next to my blacksmith shop behind the house. Family and friends drop by constantly so I currently don't have to endure the anxiety you may feel where you live

If I may ask, do you feel endangered in your immediate neighborhood since 7 October or do you feel relatively safe?

Thanks,

 

[Shusha]

I would like to think that some time in the future that a Palestinian / Arab government would be capable of treating its Jewish and Arabic population fairly and equally.

I would like to think so as well.

I fear that anti Jewish sentiment will only increase as the Netanyahu government's genocide in Gaza continues and the widespread misery in Gaza becomes more widely known.

I think it is important to counter the slander and blood-libels being tossed around so casually in these times. That is the difference between antisemitism and other regional conflicts between nations, which don't seem to have the widespread violent acts or threats against individuals of that ethnicity in other countries. It's important to speak accurately and objectively about the events in Gaza. That is what I try to do.

If I may ask, do you feel endangered in your immediate neighborhood since 7 October or do you feel relatively safe?

I live in an exceedingly safe place in the world. I can walk around my daily business wearing my Star or an Israeli pin without comment or fear. Security has been increased at the synagogue, but by that I only mean that the doors are closed and locked instead of propped open during services and we have a more robust alarm system. Our town's Jewish community and our Muslim community are close, and we have multi-faith events.

But I have a large international group of friends because of dayjob, so I carry much anxiety for them.