The Ottoman Empire and Islam

[Gracie]

Islam and the Ottoman Empire

Interesting reading ^^^
Maybe its me, but from what little scatterings I have found over the years, Islam was not the same Islam of today. It seemed more...tolerant? So my question is...did the fall of the Ottoman Empire cause the change of Islam and how it is practiced today?

 

[Gracie]

In the link above:

The Millet System
While analyzing the Ottoman Empire’s Islamic character, one must keep in mind that much of the empire’s population was not Muslim. Large communities of Orthodox Christians, Jews, and Catholics all lived in the empire. At some times, Muslims even formed a minority of the empire’s population. At no time in the empire’s history were non-Muslims forced to abide by any Muslim laws. Instead, a system of religious pluralism, known as the millet system, was implemented. In the millet system, each religious group was organized into a millet, or nation.
Each millet was allowed to run by its own rules, elect its own leaders, and enforce their own laws on their people. For example, after the conquest of Constantinople in 1453, Sultan Mehmed II had the Orthodox Christian community of the city elect a new patriarch, who served as their leader. By not enforcing Islamic laws on non-Muslims, the Ottoman Empire ensured social and religious stability and harmony within its borders for much of its history. Contrary to this, throughout the rest of Christian Europe, religious freedom only began to take root in the 1700s and 1800s. Denial of rights and persecution of non-Christians continued, however, as is seen in the Holocaust of the 1940s and the ethnic cleansing of Muslim Bosnians in the 1990s.

So....is the "more modern" islam a warped version of what its original intent was and did the downfall of the Ottomans cause it..kinda like the fall of what happened in the ME caused the rise of radical extremists we are fighting today?

 

[irosie91]

sheeesh Right in the middle of the nite------(where I am) I am confronted with the
BS of Islamic revisionist history. Sorry folks-----<gracie> I got lots of relatives
who survived or are the descendents of survivors of shariah shit holes----
--including in the Ottoman empire. Middle of nite-----so I will cut
to the chase.--------islam has not changed. The lives of non-muslims living
in Islamic cesspits DID vary from place to place and from time to time----but
IN GENERAL ---it was stank like shit ---------same as it does-----more or less---
-------from place to place------today.
The fact that non-muslim populations got progressively DECIMATED to the point
of genocide is not coincidental and it is, CERTAINLY, NOT because so many happily
"embraced" islam as muslim revisionist historians INSIST..
Islamic law is GENOCIDAL------even adolf knew that---------the Nuremburg laws
that legalized genocide in Germany are virtually identical to the rules of "DHIMMIA"
Feel free to ask questions-------it is good to be specific.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Could this have anything to do with the problems in the ME today?

 

[Penelope]

In the link above:

The Millet System
While analyzing the Ottoman Empire’s Islamic character, one must keep in mind that much of the empire’s population was not Muslim. Large communities of Orthodox Christians, Jews, and Catholics all lived in the empire. At some times, Muslims even formed a minority of the empire’s population. At no time in the empire’s history were non-Muslims forced to abide by any Muslim laws. Instead, a system of religious pluralism, known as the millet system, was implemented. In the millet system, each religious group was organized into a millet, or nation.
Each millet was allowed to run by its own rules, elect its own leaders, and enforce their own laws on their people. For example, after the conquest of Constantinople in 1453, Sultan Mehmed II had the Orthodox Christian community of the city elect a new patriarch, who served as their leader. By not enforcing Islamic laws on non-Muslims, the Ottoman Empire ensured social and religious stability and harmony within its borders for much of its history. Contrary to this, throughout the rest of Christian Europe, religious freedom only began to take root in the 1700s and 1800s. Denial of rights and persecution of non-Christians continued, however, as is seen in the Holocaust of the 1940s and the ethnic cleansing of Muslim Bosnians in the 1990s.

So....is the "more modern" islam a warped version of what its original intent was and did the downfall of the Ottomans cause it..kinda like the fall of what happened in the ME caused the rise of radical extremists we are fighting today?

Suleiman the Magnificent. Everyone needs to live somewhere.

 

[irosie91]

In the link above:

The Millet System
While analyzing the Ottoman Empire’s Islamic character, one must keep in mind that much of the empire’s population was not Muslim. Large communities of Orthodox Christians, Jews, and Catholics all lived in the empire. At some times, Muslims even formed a minority of the empire’s population. At no time in the empire’s history were non-Muslims forced to abide by any Muslim laws. Instead, a system of religious pluralism, known as the millet system, was implemented. In the millet system, each religious group was organized into a millet, or nation.
Each millet was allowed to run by its own rules, elect its own leaders, and enforce their own laws on their people. For example, after the conquest of Constantinople in 1453, Sultan Mehmed II had the Orthodox Christian community of the city elect a new patriarch, who served as their leader. By not enforcing Islamic laws on non-Muslims, the Ottoman Empire ensured social and religious stability and harmony within its borders for much of its history. Contrary to this, throughout the rest of Christian Europe, religious freedom only began to take root in the 1700s and 1800s. Denial of rights and persecution of non-Christians continued, however, as is seen in the Holocaust of the 1940s and the ethnic cleansing of Muslim Bosnians in the 1990s.

So....is the "more modern" islam a warped version of what its original intent was and did the downfall of the Ottomans cause it..kinda like the fall of what happened in the ME caused the rise of radical extremists we are fighting today?

Suleiman the Magnificent. Everyone needs to live somewhere.

so true ------even the cotton picking slaves on the plantation got to live in a shack

 

[Gracie]

sheeesh Right in the middle of the nite------(where I am) I am confronted with the
BS of Islamic revisionist history. Sorry folks-----<gracie> I got lots of relatives
who survived or are the descendents of survivors of shariah shit holes----
--including in the Ottoman empire. Middle of nite-----so I will cut
to the chase.--------islam has not changed. The lives of non-muslims living
in Islamic cesspits DID vary from place to place and from time to time----but
IN GENERAL ---it was stank like shit ---------same as it does-----more or less---
-------from place to place------today.
The fact that non-muslim populations got progressively DECIMATED to the point
of genocide is not coincidental and it is, CERTAINLY, NOT because so many happily
"embraced" islam as muslim revisionist historians INSIST..
Islamic law is GENOCIDAL------even adolf knew that---------the Nuremburg laws
that legalized genocide in Germany are virtually identical to the rules of "DHIMMIA"
Feel free to ask questions-------it is good to be specific.

You are in the present. I was asking about info or opinions of the past.

 

[Coyote]

Islam and the Ottoman Empire

Interesting reading ^^^
Maybe its me, but from what little scatterings I have found over the years, Islam was not the same Islam of today. It seemed more...tolerant? So my question is...did the fall of the Ottoman Empire cause the change of Islam and how it is practiced today?

Interesting Gracie! Somewhere, and I don't remember where - I read that Islam, at one time was at a crossroads, much like reformation in Christianity - as to the direction it should go - and the hardcore conservatives won out. Was that the Salifists maybe?

 

[Gracie]

Islam and the Ottoman Empire

Interesting reading ^^^
Maybe its me, but from what little scatterings I have found over the years, Islam was not the same Islam of today. It seemed more...tolerant? So my question is...did the fall of the Ottoman Empire cause the change of Islam and how it is practiced today?

Interesting Gracie! Somewhere, and I don't remember where - I read that Islam, at one time was at a crossroads, much like reformation in Christianity - as to the direction it should go - and the hardcore conservatives won out. Was that the Salifists maybe?

No clue, hon. I was always fascinated with Suliemann and those times in history. But from what little tidbits I have read over the years, his religion seemed much more tolerant that what it seems to be today and I think that is from radicals changing what was the original intent. Much like Christians were the minority but look at them now. They changed, too. Religion is the downfall of everything I think. Everyone thinks what they believe is the real truth regardless of what religion it is. Baptists against Adventists, Penecostal disagreeing with Catholics...etc etc etc. Seems to me, the same thing is happening in Islam.

 

[eagle1462010]

Armenian Genocide - Facts & Summary - HISTORY.com

 

[eagle1462010]

The expansion of the Ottoman Caliphate was really stopped by Charles THE HAMMER Martel in the Battle of Tours.......which led to the Crusades......

Charles Martel Stops Muslim Expansion at the Battle of Tours (732) : HistoryofInformation.com

Ottoman Caliphate - Wikipedia

As the Ottoman Empire weakened later they implemented this....

Tanzimat - Wikipedia

Then the radicals took over .......aka the Young Turks........and the Armenian Genocide happened......to kill the Christians in Armenia and the War with Russian Christians...............

Young Turks and the Armenian Genocide

Then they were beaten in WWI.....

Collapse of the Ottoman Empire, 1918-1920 - The Ottoman Empire | NZHistory, New Zealand history online

 

[irosie91]

sheeesh Right in the middle of the nite------(where I am) I am confronted with the
BS of Islamic revisionist history. Sorry folks-----<gracie> I got lots of relatives
who survived or are the descendents of survivors of shariah shit holes----
--including in the Ottoman empire. Middle of nite-----so I will cut
to the chase.--------islam has not changed. The lives of non-muslims living
in Islamic cesspits DID vary from place to place and from time to time----but
IN GENERAL ---it was stank like shit ---------same as it does-----more or less---
-------from place to place------today.
The fact that non-muslim populations got progressively DECIMATED to the point
of genocide is not coincidental and it is, CERTAINLY, NOT because so many happily
"embraced" islam as muslim revisionist historians INSIST..
Islamic law is GENOCIDAL------even adolf knew that---------the Nuremburg laws
that legalized genocide in Germany are virtually identical to the rules of "DHIMMIA"
Feel free to ask questions-------it is good to be specific.

You are in the present. I was asking about info or opinions of the past.

feel free to ask about THE PAST. My relatives lived in the OTTOMAN EMPIRE---IN
THE PAST, Gracie. -----it was IN THE PAST----that non-muslim populations in the
OTTOMAN EMPIRE-----got decimated. Even the reforms of ATATURK did not
diminish the decimation. It is an interesting topic. The OTTOMANS did not have
control on "ISLAM" thruout the Ottoman empire. The reforms of Ataturk did not touch
the entire empire by A LONG SHOT. The reforms of Ataturk did not even have all
that much effect on TURKEY -----and now it's over. HUGE parts of the ARAB OTTOMAN empire were tribal----run by Islamic cheiftains

 

[Gracie]

sheeesh Right in the middle of the nite------(where I am) I am confronted with the
BS of Islamic revisionist history. Sorry folks-----<gracie> I got lots of relatives
who survived or are the descendents of survivors of shariah shit holes----
--including in the Ottoman empire. Middle of nite-----so I will cut
to the chase.--------islam has not changed. The lives of non-muslims living
in Islamic cesspits DID vary from place to place and from time to time----but
IN GENERAL ---it was stank like shit ---------same as it does-----more or less---
-------from place to place------today.
The fact that non-muslim populations got progressively DECIMATED to the point
of genocide is not coincidental and it is, CERTAINLY, NOT because so many happily
"embraced" islam as muslim revisionist historians INSIST..
Islamic law is GENOCIDAL------even adolf knew that---------the Nuremburg laws
that legalized genocide in Germany are virtually identical to the rules of "DHIMMIA"
Feel free to ask questions-------it is good to be specific.

You are in the present. I was asking about info or opinions of the past.

feel free to ask about THE PAST. My relatives lived in the OTTOMAN EMPIRE---IN
THE PAST, Gracie. -----it was IN THE PAST----that non-muslim populations in the
OTTOMAN EMPIRE-----got decimated. Even the reforms of ATATURK did not
diminish the decimation. It is an interesting topic. The OTTOMANS did not have
control on "ISLAM" thruout the Ottoman empire. The reforms of Ataturk did not touch
the entire empire by A LONG SHOT. The reforms of Ataturk did not even have all
that much effect on TURKEY -----and now it's over. HUGE parts of the ARAB OTTOMAN empire were tribal----run by Islamic cheiftains

This is extremely interesting but also very personal for you. I'm sorry for that. With that said..I am asking about the past. Because the past is what forms the future...or present. Hence my opening questions.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Islam and the Ottoman Empire

Interesting reading ^^^
Maybe its me, but from what little scatterings I have found over the years, Islam was not the same Islam of today. It seemed more...tolerant? So my question is...did the fall of the Ottoman Empire cause the change of Islam and how it is practiced today?

Yes, Islam has suffered due to many attacks, mostly from the west.

The British went into Afghanistan and they found they could win with Jihad. Why? Well, because the fighters were better fighters, more disciplined, more willing to fight and not run away.

The British got kicked out twice. When you find something that works, you cling to it.

After that the Ottoman Empire suffered a game from the Russians, British and French mostly, the Germans supported them.

The Ottoman Empire was carved up by the last men standing, the British and the French. In the Northern half of Africa where Islam is more prevalent, it was again the British and the French.

They kicked the British out by using things that worked. Jihad.

Turkey is becoming more religious, in part because it helps dictators cling to power, in part because of anger at what the West is doing in the modern era, usually the US backed by the UK and France..... sound familiar?

 

[irosie91]

sheeesh Right in the middle of the nite------(where I am) I am confronted with the
BS of Islamic revisionist history. Sorry folks-----<gracie> I got lots of relatives
who survived or are the descendents of survivors of shariah shit holes----
--including in the Ottoman empire. Middle of nite-----so I will cut
to the chase.--------islam has not changed. The lives of non-muslims living
in Islamic cesspits DID vary from place to place and from time to time----but
IN GENERAL ---it was stank like shit ---------same as it does-----more or less---
-------from place to place------today.
The fact that non-muslim populations got progressively DECIMATED to the point
of genocide is not coincidental and it is, CERTAINLY, NOT because so many happily
"embraced" islam as muslim revisionist historians INSIST..
Islamic law is GENOCIDAL------even adolf knew that---------the Nuremburg laws
that legalized genocide in Germany are virtually identical to the rules of "DHIMMIA"
Feel free to ask questions-------it is good to be specific.

You are in the present. I was asking about info or opinions of the past.

feel free to ask about THE PAST. My relatives lived in the OTTOMAN EMPIRE---IN
THE PAST, Gracie. -----it was IN THE PAST----that non-muslim populations in the
OTTOMAN EMPIRE-----got decimated. Even the reforms of ATATURK did not
diminish the decimation. It is an interesting topic. The OTTOMANS did not have
control on "ISLAM" thruout the Ottoman empire. The reforms of Ataturk did not touch
the entire empire by A LONG SHOT. The reforms of Ataturk did not even have all
that much effect on TURKEY -----and now it's over. HUGE parts of the ARAB OTTOMAN empire were tribal----run by Islamic cheiftains

This is extremely interesting but also very personal for you. I'm sorry for that. With that said..I am asking about the past. Because the past is what forms the future...or present. Hence my opening questions.

feel free Gracie. Be not deceived I was born in the USA-----and MY PARENTS have
ancestry in eastern Europe-----a bit of Poland-----and even Merry old England. ----but
hubby has very extensive background in the Ottoman Empire------and I got to meet many
of the survivors before they died. ------Because of my profession in health care----I also got
to meet survivors------who were something like Robert Spencer-------Turk, Greek.-------and also Balkan non muslims-----Christian and Jew------many populations victims of both
OTTOMAN and----just arab muslim invasion. It is IN SUM a very interesting and tragic
slory--------a REAL HOLOCAUST that came out of arabia

 

[irosie91]

Islam and the Ottoman Empire

Interesting reading ^^^
Maybe its me, but from what little scatterings I have found over the years, Islam was not the same Islam of today. It seemed more...tolerant? So my question is...did the fall of the Ottoman Empire cause the change of Islam and how it is practiced today?

Yes, Islam has suffered due to many attacks, mostly from the west.

The British went into Afghanistan and they found they could win with Jihad. Why? Well, because the fighters were better fighters, more disciplined, more willing to fight and not run away.

The British got kicked out twice. When you find something that works, you cling to it.

After that the Ottoman Empire suffered a game from the Russians, British and French mostly, the Germans supported them.

The Ottoman Empire was carved up by the last men standing, the British and the French. In the Northern half of Africa where Islam is more prevalent, it was again the British and the French.

They kicked the British out by using things that worked. Jihad.

Turkey is becoming more religious, in part because it helps dictators cling to power, in part because of anger at what the West is doing in the modern era, usually the US backed by the UK and France..... sound familiar?

Afghanistan was doing FINE-------for thousands of years BEFORE THE MUGHAL EMPIRE
got there------only a few hundreds of years ago and imposed ISLAAAAAM------and committed
genocide upon the BUDDHIST, HINDU, ZOROASTRIAN ----and some Christian and jewish
minorities---------KABUL was once a land of scholarship and wealth-----a kind of land of which
legends are made. A very interesting side-bar. The Queen---VASHTI------<<< that is the
Persian queen in the BOOK OF ESTHER in the Catholic Old Testament-----was probably
AFGHANI------Afghanistan was part of the OLD PERSIAN EMPIRE. I have----as one of my
names------a Persian name--------Persia was-----long ago----before the arabs got there----
a PLACE OF CULTURE AND REFINEMENT and most of all LITERACY

 

[Picaro]

In the link above:

The Millet System
While analyzing the Ottoman Empire’s Islamic character, one must keep in mind that much of the empire’s population was not Muslim. Large communities of Orthodox Christians, Jews, and Catholics all lived in the empire. At some times, Muslims even formed a minority of the empire’s population. At no time in the empire’s history were non-Muslims forced to abide by any Muslim laws. Instead, a system of religious pluralism, known as the millet system, was implemented. In the millet system, each religious group was organized into a millet, or nation.
Each millet was allowed to run by its own rules, elect its own leaders, and enforce their own laws on their people. For example, after the conquest of Constantinople in 1453, Sultan Mehmed II had the Orthodox Christian community of the city elect a new patriarch, who served as their leader. By not enforcing Islamic laws on non-Muslims, the Ottoman Empire ensured social and religious stability and harmony within its borders for much of its history. Contrary to this, throughout the rest of Christian Europe, religious freedom only began to take root in the 1700s and 1800s. Denial of rights and persecution of non-Christians continued, however, as is seen in the Holocaust of the 1940s and the ethnic cleansing of Muslim Bosnians in the 1990s.

So....is the "more modern" islam a warped version of what its original intent was and did the downfall of the Ottomans cause it..kinda like the fall of what happened in the ME caused the rise of radical extremists we are fighting today?

Don't have time at the moment to go into details, but the claim it was ever 'more tolerant' and 'secular' is a load of complete rubbish. The were 'tolerant' to a few survivors of their butchery, as long as they brought in money and provided a source of slaves, period.

 

[Picaro]

The expansion of the Ottoman Caliphate was really stopped by Charles THE HAMMER Martel in the Battle of Tours.......which led to the Crusades......

Charles Martel Stops Muslim Expansion at the Battle of Tours (732) : HistoryofInformation.com

Ottoman Caliphate - Wikipedia

As the Ottoman Empire weakened later they implemented this....

Tanzimat - Wikipedia

Then the radicals took over .......aka the Young Turks........and the Armenian Genocide happened......to kill the Christians in Armenia and the War with Russian Christians...............

Young Turks and the Armenian Genocide

Then they were beaten in WWI.....

Collapse of the Ottoman Empire, 1918-1920 - The Ottoman Empire | NZHistory, New Zealand history online

And this doesn't begin to cover the centuries of butchery and smaller invasions around the Med and of course the invasions of India were even more bloody than in the West, which at least was able to defend itself to a some extent, thanks to the early Christian converts and the leadership it inspired among some very fierce pagans.

 

[eagle1462010]

sykes1: Islamic invasion o

From the time of the Umayyad Dynasty (711AD) to the last Mughal, Bahadur Shah Zafar (1858), so widely praised as great leaders by Indian historians themselves, entire cities were burnt down and the populations massacred, with hundreds of thousands killed in every campaign, and similar numbers deported as slaves. Every new invader made (often literally) his hills of Hindus skulls. Thus, the conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000 was followed by the annihilation of the Hindu population; the region is still called the Hindu Kush, i.e. “Hindu slaughter.”

The genocide suffered by the Hindus and Sikhs of India at the hands of Arab, Turkish, Mughal and Afghan occupying forces for a period of 800 years is as yet formally unrecognised by the World.

These contemporary records boasted about and glorified the crimes that were committed – and the genocide of tens of millions of Hindus, mass rapes of Hindu women and the destruction of thousands of ancient Hindu / Buddhist temples and libraries have been well documented and provide solid proof of the World’s biggest holocaust.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Islam and the Ottoman Empire

Interesting reading ^^^
Maybe its me, but from what little scatterings I have found over the years, Islam was not the same Islam of today. It seemed more...tolerant? So my question is...did the fall of the Ottoman Empire cause the change of Islam and how it is practiced today?

The peak of the Ottoman jihad was September 11, l683.