The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[P F Tinmore]

No Shusa,it was yourside that DEMONIZED,MURDERED,and exsile the Palestinian People to gain their land Ilegally ,then said to following generations THAT NO ONE HAD LIVED THERE BEFORE....need I go on,I think I will keep to the sound bite here,hate for Coyote to think I was having a discussion,heaven forbid

And I am still waiting for you to produce the evidence that the LoN granted the land to the arab muslims calling themselves palestinians.

The evidence of Western journalists travelling through palestine in the 19C all says that there were few places that had a human presence. That most of the villages were Jewish with the occasional arab tent village. The ottoman census results show that the Jews were in the majority, and the early British results show the same thing. All you produce is the links that support the islamicf version of history as if they are the only evidence available.

Over the last 100 years the arab muslims have attempted to wipe out the Jews in palestine/Israel and failed in the process. The evidence shows that the arab muslims invaded palestine with the intention of mass murdering the Jews and were put out when the Jews turned on them.

You constantly deny the Jews their rights to their lands granted under international treaty and international laws in 1923, the same laws and treaties that granted the arab muslims Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Saudi, Yemen, Egypt and Turkey. So if you deny the Jews their rights then you are denying the arab muslm theirs as well.

The LoN had no authority to grant rights to anyone. Rights are not granted. They are recognized by international law. The people stay with their territory without regard to the political status of that territory.

The Treaty of Lausanne echoed that principle as did the Palestinian citizenship order. Even the never implemented Resolution181 stated that all Palestinians who normally live in the territory that would become the Jewish state would be citizens of that state.

The people of the place cannot be separated from their place.

 

[Phoenall]

And Team Israel uses it to negate the rights of Palestinians.

I disagree.

Yes, some members of Team Israel do discuss the invention of the Palestinians, as I have myself, and some question the cultural differentiations between that culture and nearby cultures, as I have myself, but the context is typically not rejecting that the Palestinians exist, or that a Palestinian nation must not exist. Team Israel, and I can't think of exceptions on this board, is overwhelmingly pro-Two State Solution (actually four State solution, but whatever). Most of the discussions concerning the Palestinians lack of rights to a nation are related to their preparedness to both govern and to live at peace with Israel. Its not an existential fight for the Palestinians.

Team Palestine, on the other hand, argues regularly and insistently that the Jewish people are not a people, an ethnicity or a culture and have no rights to BE a nation. They argue that there is no such thing as the Jewish people. They argue for ethnic cleansing -- not to secure peace -- but because the Jewish people have no rights and therefore ethnically cleansing them is not a violation of human rights. They argue for exclusive use of the Holy Places and the entire territory -- not to secure peace -- but because the Jewish people do not qualify for any of it. Some of them repeat anti-semitic libels and lies on a regular basis in thread after thread after thread in order to demonize and dehumanize Jews.

There are plenty on Team Israel that argue the Palestinians don't exist, they are invented, they are just Arabs and that they should be sent off to other Arab countries. It's not just one or two folks here. I've noticed many discussions where there lack of rights is directly related to their lack of existence as a people. In essence - I've seen the same arguments you attribute to Team Palestine. I've also seen those who argue against the rights of Jewish people, as you describe - but I've seen just as much libel and demonizing and dehumanizing of the Palestinians.

There are a handful of posters on either side that don't do this, that actually dig into the issues and try to come up with solutions.

And then the majority argue that INTERNATIONAL LAWS should be enforced for all parties and the aspects of those laws already enforced to the benefit of the arab muslims should be enforced for the benefit of the Jews. But as soon as those aspects are broached you deny their existence because it would mean the arab muslims moving out of Israel and going back where they originally came from. Then you want " do overs" when the arab muslims are defeated in every fight they start with the arab muslims given every new weapon to unleash on the Jews. They had their chance in 1917 and refused to accept it, again in 1921, 1923, 1924, 1929, 1930, 1931, 1945, 1947, 1949, 1967, 1973, 1988, 1995, 1999, 2000, 2005, 2007, 2009 and 2014. Why should we keep giving them more and more chances when they refuse to accept them unless they have the genocide of the Jews and the destruction of Israel as their major aspect. Read their charters and see what their aims are, and they have lodged these with the UN as being sacrosacnt. If the UN had any backbone they would have held an emergency meetting without any islamic nations being present and raised a multinational force to eliminate the arab muslims calling themselves palestinians from the area. They have their own lands called trans Jordan and that is where they should be living, not in Israel that was never their lands anyway. You ignore International law at your peril because in a few short years the arab muslims will be knocking on your door claiming the bathroom window they can see was their bedroom in 2000 before you stole the building from them. Keep pushing the arab muslim propaganda and soon you will be fighting against what you are "defending" now and there will be no one to come to your aid.

 

[Phoenall]

No Shusa,it was yourside that DEMONIZED,MURDERED,and exsile the Palestinian People to gain their land Ilegally ,then said to following generations THAT NO ONE HAD LIVED THERE BEFORE....need I go on,I think I will keep to the sound bite here,hate for Coyote to think I was having a discussion,heaven forbid

And I am still waiting for you to produce the evidence that the LoN granted the land to the arab muslims calling themselves palestinians.

The evidence of Western journalists travelling through palestine in the 19C all says that there were few places that had a human presence. That most of the villages were Jewish with the occasional arab tent village. The ottoman census results show that the Jews were in the majority, and the early British results show the same thing. All you produce is the links that support the islamicf version of history as if they are the only evidence available.

Over the last 100 years the arab muslims have attempted to wipe out the Jews in palestine/Israel and failed in the process. The evidence shows that the arab muslims invaded palestine with the intention of mass murdering the Jews and were put out when the Jews turned on them.

You constantly deny the Jews their rights to their lands granted under international treaty and international laws in 1923, the same laws and treaties that granted the arab muslims Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Saudi, Yemen, Egypt and Turkey. So if you deny the Jews their rights then you are denying the arab muslm theirs as well.

The LoN had no authority to grant rights to anyone. Rights are not granted. They are recognized by international law. The people stay with their territory without regard to the political status of that territory.

The Treaty of Lausanne echoed that principle as did the Palestinian citizenship order. Even the never implemented Resolution181 stated that all Palestinians who normally live in the territory that would become the Jewish state would be citizens of that state.

The people of the place cannot be separated from their place.

Are you 100% sure you want to run with that claim, because if you are then you are saying that not one of the islamic nations on the former Ottoman Empire lands exists. The LoN charter that you use against the Jews does not exist and the lands are still under the control of the Allies. The UN does not exist as that was invented on the back of the LoN and its resolutions are no longer in existence.


Rights are granted through international law, and dont exist until that time. Unless you want them to be used against the founding fathers invasion, colonisation and land theft of the Americas. If the people stay with their territory then the arab muslims must give up Mecca, Medina, Jerusalem, Hebron and all the other places that were Jewish before the arab muslims stole them.

Resolution 181 does not exist according to your opening sentence, so you cant use is as an argument unless you are being two faced and denying the Jews their rights under international law. This is something that you do every day because you cant argue your case from an intelligent standpoint so resort to immature and stupid sound bites

 

[Shusha]

The people of the place cannot be separated from their place.

Of course they can. Its called ethnic cleansing. Or population transfers. Happened a lot after WWII. In a lot of different places.

 

[Phoenall]

The people of the place cannot be separated from their place.

Of course they can. Its called ethnic cleansing. Or population transfers. Happened a lot after WWII. In a lot of different places.

It also happens a lot in nations taken over by muslims, like the former Yugoslavia and gaza. Since 2007 the arab muslims in gaza have ethnically cleansed 90% of the Christian population and found they could not blame it on the Jews.

 

[theliq]

There are plenty on Team Israel that argue the Palestinians don't exist, they are invented, they are just Arabs and that they should be sent off to other Arab countries. It's not just one or two folks here. I've noticed many discussions where there lack of rights is directly related to their lack of existence as a people. In essence - I've seen the same arguments you attribute to Team Palestine. I've also seen those who argue against the rights of Jewish people, as you describe - but I've seen just as much libel and demonizing and dehumanizing of the Palestinians.

There are a handful of posters on either side that don't do this, that actually dig into the issues and try to come up with solutions.

The Palestinians are definitely a tribe or sub-group of Arabic Muslims.

That said, when they constantly use terrorism as a tool and habitually murder innocent men, women and children, they become a force to be neutralized.

Add to this, if the other Arab nations/tribes/sub-groups really gave a shit about the Palestinians, they would have accepted them as refugees or helped them build factories in the Palestinian territories. Instead, those Arabs egged the Palestinians on to commit terrorist atrocities sending them a shitload of weapons, rockets and suicide belts and just enough food to live long enough to die as "martyrs".

sorry Devine, the Palestinians are a race of people, which the Jews are not.

 

[Phoenall]

There are plenty on Team Israel that argue the Palestinians don't exist, they are invented, they are just Arabs and that they should be sent off to other Arab countries. It's not just one or two folks here. I've noticed many discussions where there lack of rights is directly related to their lack of existence as a people. In essence - I've seen the same arguments you attribute to Team Palestine. I've also seen those who argue against the rights of Jewish people, as you describe - but I've seen just as much libel and demonizing and dehumanizing of the Palestinians.

There are a handful of posters on either side that don't do this, that actually dig into the issues and try to come up with solutions.

The Palestinians are definitely a tribe or sub-group of Arabic Muslims.

That said, when they constantly use terrorism as a tool and habitually murder innocent men, women and children, they become a force to be neutralized.

Add to this, if the other Arab nations/tribes/sub-groups really gave a shit about the Palestinians, they would have accepted them as refugees or helped them build factories in the Palestinian territories. Instead, those Arabs egged the Palestinians on to commit terrorist atrocities sending them a shitload of weapons, rockets and suicide belts and just enough food to live long enough to die as "martyrs".

sorry Devine, the Palestinians are a race of people, which the Jews are not.

Still pushing your anti semitic Jew hatred. The arab muslims calling themselves palestinians are a mongrel nation of many ethnicities, races, nationalities and beliefs, They have never been one people because of the concept of islam, and have only one thing in common islamonazi mentallity.

The Jews are a proven seperate race that has no genetic links to the arab muslims other than that of the human Genome. The arab muslims you hero worship come from all of the islamic world just to fight the Jews and get beaten every time.

ALL YOU HAVE IS YOUR HATE SITES AND PROPAGANDA THAT DOES NOT SUPPORT MOST OF YOUR CLAIMS

 

[P F Tinmore]

There are plenty on Team Israel that argue the Palestinians don't exist, they are invented, they are just Arabs and that they should be sent off to other Arab countries. It's not just one or two folks here. I've noticed many discussions where there lack of rights is directly related to their lack of existence as a people. In essence - I've seen the same arguments you attribute to Team Palestine. I've also seen those who argue against the rights of Jewish people, as you describe - but I've seen just as much libel and demonizing and dehumanizing of the Palestinians.

There are a handful of posters on either side that don't do this, that actually dig into the issues and try to come up with solutions.

The Palestinians are definitely a tribe or sub-group of Arabic Muslims.

That said, when they constantly use terrorism as a tool and habitually murder innocent men, women and children, they become a force to be neutralized.

Add to this, if the other Arab nations/tribes/sub-groups really gave a shit about the Palestinians, they would have accepted them as refugees or helped them build factories in the Palestinian territories. Instead, those Arabs egged the Palestinians on to commit terrorist atrocities sending them a shitload of weapons, rockets and suicide belts and just enough food to live long enough to die as "martyrs".

sorry Devine, the Palestinians are a race of people, which the Jews are not.

Still pushing your anti semitic Jew hatred. The arab muslims calling themselves palestinians are a mongrel nation of many ethnicities, races, nationalities and beliefs, They have never been one people because of the concept of islam, and have only one thing in common islamonazi mentallity.

The Jews are a proven seperate race that has no genetic links to the arab muslims other than that of the human Genome. The arab muslims you hero worship come from all of the islamic world just to fight the Jews and get beaten every time.

ALL YOU HAVE IS YOUR HATE SITES AND PROPAGANDA THAT DOES NOT SUPPORT MOST OF YOUR CLAIMS

palestinians are a mongrel nation of many ethnicities, races, nationalities and beliefs,​

Just like the US.

 

[Divine Wind]

sorry Devine, the Palestinians are a race of people, which the Jews are not.

What race are the Palestinians?

 

[Phoenall]

There are plenty on Team Israel that argue the Palestinians don't exist, they are invented, they are just Arabs and that they should be sent off to other Arab countries. It's not just one or two folks here. I've noticed many discussions where there lack of rights is directly related to their lack of existence as a people. In essence - I've seen the same arguments you attribute to Team Palestine. I've also seen those who argue against the rights of Jewish people, as you describe - but I've seen just as much libel and demonizing and dehumanizing of the Palestinians.

There are a handful of posters on either side that don't do this, that actually dig into the issues and try to come up with solutions.

The Palestinians are definitely a tribe or sub-group of Arabic Muslims.

That said, when they constantly use terrorism as a tool and habitually murder innocent men, women and children, they become a force to be neutralized.

Add to this, if the other Arab nations/tribes/sub-groups really gave a shit about the Palestinians, they would have accepted them as refugees or helped them build factories in the Palestinian territories. Instead, those Arabs egged the Palestinians on to commit terrorist atrocities sending them a shitload of weapons, rockets and suicide belts and just enough food to live long enough to die as "martyrs".

sorry Devine, the Palestinians are a race of people, which the Jews are not.

Still pushing your anti semitic Jew hatred. The arab muslims calling themselves palestinians are a mongrel nation of many ethnicities, races, nationalities and beliefs, They have never been one people because of the concept of islam, and have only one thing in common islamonazi mentallity.

The Jews are a proven seperate race that has no genetic links to the arab muslims other than that of the human Genome. The arab muslims you hero worship come from all of the islamic world just to fight the Jews and get beaten every time.

ALL YOU HAVE IS YOUR HATE SITES AND PROPAGANDA THAT DOES NOT SUPPORT MOST OF YOUR CLAIMS

palestinians are a mongrel nation of many ethnicities, races, nationalities and beliefs,​

Just like the US.

Yes just like the US, only the US does not have the state sponsored terrorism, the national ideal of violence rules all and the national religion of islam. So the comparison ends on the mixing of races.

 

[Phoenall]

sorry Devine, the Palestinians are a race of people, which the Jews are not.

What race are the Palestinians?

Nobody knows as the blood is that mixed by the massive influx of illegal migrants from the 1920's on

 

[Shusha]

sorry Devine, the Palestinians are a race of people, which the Jews are not.

Yet another poster who insists that the universal and inalienable rights which belong to all people don't belong to the Jewish people because the Jewish people don't "count" -- are not a people, a race, a culture, an ethnicity.

So, again, I ask: by what criteria do you determine this? What makes Palestinians a "race" (people, culture, ethnicity) and deserving of self-determination and a nation?

 

[Divine Wind]

Nobody knows as the blood is that mixed by the massive influx of illegal migrants from the 1920's on

$1000 says it's within 0.1% of everyone else's DNA.

DNA survey finds all humans are 99.9pc the same
Although scientists have long recognised that, despite physical differences, all human populations are genetically similar, the new work concludes that populations from different parts of the world share even more genetic similarities than previously assumed.

All humans are 99.9 per cent identical and, of that tiny 0.1 per cent difference, 94 per cent of the variation is among individuals from the same populations and only six per cent between individuals from different populations.

Nonetheless, the team found that tiny differences in DNA can provide enough information to identify the geographic ancestry of individual men and women.

The results of the study, published today in the journal Science, have implications for understanding ancient human migrations and for resolving an ongoing debate about the use of family histories in medical research, said Prof Marcus Feldman of Stanford University who led the team.

The team analysed DNA from 1,056 people from 52 populations in five major geographic regions of the world: Africa, Eurasia (Europe, the Middle East, Central and South Asia), East Asia, Oceania and the Americas.

To identify specific populations, the research team looked for 377 "microsatellites" - short segments of human DNA that occur in specific patterns, which are passed down from generation to generation.

"Each microsatellite had between four and 32 distinct types," Prof Feldman said. "Most were found in people from several continents, suggesting that only a tiny fraction of genetic traits are distinctive to specific populations. This means that visible differences between human groups - such as skin colour and skull shape - result from differences in a very small proportion of genetic traits."

Using powerful statistical techniques that use many independent genes it was possible to pinpoint the ancestral continent of virtually every individual from Africa, East Asia, Oceania and the Americas.

People from Eurasia - which includes Europe, the Middle East and Central/South Asia - were among the most difficult to assign ancestries, Prof Feldman noted, due to a "complex history of migrations, conquests and trade over the past few thousand years."

 

[Mindful]

sorry Devine, the Palestinians are a race of people, which the Jews are not.

What race are the Palestinians?

Nobody knows as the blood is that mixed by the massive influx of illegal migrants from the 1920's on

Why is this even a topic of conversation? No one discusses the right of Great Britain, the USA, to exist.

It's just another meandering way of not recognising the state of Israel.

 

[Divine Wind]

Why is this even a topic of conversation? No one discusses the right Great Britain, the USA, to exist.

It's just another meandering way of not recognising the state of Israel.

Agreed. In many ways I see the defense of the Palestinians over and above Israel as to be akin to the KKK and White Supremacists when they switch from attacking blacks as inferior to supporting "White Heritage" and "White Power". Same shit, different cover story.

In this case, it's just a way to hide antisemitism.

 

[Shusha]

Why is this even a topic of conversation? No one discusses the right of Great Britain, the USA, to exist.

What other people in the world is demonized and vilified for wanting self-determination and a nation? What other people is called by two names -- one for the "good" ones who are content to live under foreign rule and one for the "bad" ones who want self-determination and a nation? Are there "good" Scots and "bad" Scots? Do we have a special name for the "bad" Scots?

 

[Shusha]

And Team Israel uses it to negate the rights of Palestinians.

Here's another thought as to why I think you are wrong. Or why the two sides are not equivalent in their thinking on this.

The Jewish rights to part of that territory arise from their indigeniety -- their origins in that place, the preservation of their unique culture both in that place and in the diaspora. The Jewish rights arise from the idea that invasion, conquest, exile, ethnic cleansing and genocide do not remove universal and inalienable rights from a people.

The Palestinian rights do not arise from their indigeniety. They arise from an acknowledgment that a thousand years of history can not be unmade. (It would be ridiculous to send everyone but the First Nations peoples of all the Americas back to their countries of origin).

This does not mean that Palestinians rights are negated. It just means they come from another place.

 

[P F Tinmore]

sorry Devine, the Palestinians are a race of people, which the Jews are not.

Yet another poster who insists that the universal and inalienable rights which belong to all people don't belong to the Jewish people because the Jewish people don't "count" -- are not a people, a race, a culture, an ethnicity.

So, again, I ask: by what criteria do you determine this? What makes Palestinians a "race" (people, culture, ethnicity) and deserving of self-determination and a nation?

You keep trying to make this a race/religion thing. It is not. That is why you are confused.

 

[Coyote]

And Team Israel uses it to negate the rights of Palestinians.

Here's another thought as to why I think you are wrong. Or why the two sides are not equivalent in their thinking on this.

The Jewish rights to part of that territory arise from their indigeniety -- their origins in that place, the preservation of their unique culture both in that place and in the diaspora. The Jewish rights arise from the idea that invasion, conquest, exile, ethnic cleansing and genocide do not remove universal and inalienable rights from a people.

The Palestinian rights do not arise from their indigeniety. They arise from an acknowledgment that a thousand years of history can not be unmade. (It would be ridiculous to send everyone but the First Nations peoples of all the Americas back to their countries of origin).

This does not mean that Palestinians rights are negated. It just means they come from another place.

I'm not sure I am seeing get a distinction here. For one thing, I do not agree with you on indiginuity. I consider both to be indiginous or first nations, mixed with a lot of immigrants.

For another, when Team Israel negates Palestinian rights, they do so on the basis of indiginous rights and they recognize no other rights as equivalent.

 

[Shusha]

You keep trying to make this a race/religion thing. It is not. That is why you are confused.

I am not the slightest bit confused. My arguments are internally consistent and give recognition to BOTH the Jewish people and the Palestinian people. (And also the First Nations peoples of the Americas, the Catalans, the Kurds, the Tibetans, the West Saharans, the Cypriots, the Quebecois, the Scots and anyone else self-identifying as a distinct group seeking national self-determination.) My criteria are broad and inclusive as well a practical and solution-oriented. My arguments seek to encourage nationalistic self-determination and deny it to no one.

The arguments presented by Team Palestine are internally inconsistent and specifically single out the Jewish people as being excluded from what I consider to be universal and inalienable rights. They bring up race, religion, ethnicity, culture, etc as a valid basis for sovereignty and national self-determination but then deny the Jewish people are any of those things in an effort to prevent rights from applying to the Jewish people. But they have no consistent criteria which they apply consistently and universally.

My argument with them concerns this inconsistency -- which I view as stemming from a very basic anti-semitism -- the idea that Jews can be or should be treated differently than others.
.

Now, having said all that, you are a bit of an anomaly on Team Palestine in that you may very well have an entirely different measure for who has those universal and inalienable rights you keep bringing up. You may not tie it to a group of people who have a similar aspirations and only tie it to individuals. If I am correct about your argument, you will say that the "people of the place" have those rights and that the "people of the place" are those who were residents of Palestine in August of 1925 and thus became citizens of 'Palestine'. (I think your argument is legally faulty, but at least its consistent and makes a weird sort of sense).

What I don't get about your argument is why Palestine can't be split (AGAIN!) between the two very different groups of people who were the residents of the time and are residents now. What I don't get is why you don't get on board with at two State solution (actually four) to accommodate these two very different groups. I think you are going to say that immigrants have no rights to upset the sovereignty of another territory or group of people. And where that is problematic in terms of the consistency of your argument is how you relate that to the peoples of the Americas -- who would have NO rights to the place.

Now, I know that you are going to say that the rules changed, in terms of international law, between the 1700's and 1925 and thus what the Europeans did to the Americas was legal but it was not legal in 1925 when the Jews did it. That strikes me as a moral cheat. You are playing Rules Sheriff because it suits you and not because you've built a solid, consistent, moral argument. (And again, I think your argument is legally faulty).

Further, I would challenge you on your moral or legal argument as it pertains to whether or not people in diaspora have any continued rights to their place of origin. I would want to know if the reasons for a diaspora are relevant to your argument (genocide, ethnic cleansing, exile as opposed to voluntary emigration, for example). And I would want to know who has the right to determine the status or rights of diaspora individuals.