The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Billo_Really]

Give me a break, they also claim Islam came before Judaism
Arabs came from a much wider variety of countries than Jews at the time.

Palestinian-Arabs and Palestinian-Jews are the people who never left the area. They have been living there for 2000 years. Zionists, on the other hand, just moved into the area at the turn of the last century and brought with them all the violence and racism we see today.

 

[rylah]

Give me a break, they also claim Islam came before Judaism
Arabs came from a much wider variety of countries than Jews at the time.

Palestinian-Arabs and Palestinian-Jews are the people who never left the area. They have been living there for 2000 years. Zionists, on the other hand, just moved into the area at the turn of the last century and brought with them all the violence and racism we see today.

There was violence long before any Zionist ever shot a bullet.
The society in Syria-Palestine was widely divided, sectarian and full of violence.
The first tools used to create an international Jewish political movement, were created as a response to Arab Pogroms against their Jewish neighbors.

Damascus affair
The incident and its repercussions were considerable. According to Hasia R. Diner, in The Jews of the United States, 1654 to 2000, "For the Jews, the Damascus affair launched modern Jewish politics on an international scale, and for American Jews it represented their first effort at creating a distinctive political agenda. Just as the United States had used this affair to proclaim its presence on the global scale, so too did American Jews, in their newspapers and at mass meetings, announce to their coreligionists in France and England that they too ought to be thought of players in global Jewish diplomacy."[8]

According to Johannes Valentin Schwarz, the events also encouraged the growth of the modern Jewish press. "As a result, a sense of solidarity was evoked among the Jewish communities of Europe they had never experienced before. Thus, the Damascus Affair gave birth to modern Jewish press especially in Western Europe, such as to the long-lived papers Les Archives Israélites de France (1840-1935) in Paris or The Jewish Chronicle (1841 ff.) in London."[9]

 

[Billo_Really]

There was violence long before any Zionist ever shot a bullet.
The society in Syria-Palestine was widely divided, sectarian and full of violence.
The first tools used to create an international Jewish political movement, were created as a response to Arab Pogroms against their Jewish neighbors.

Damascus affair
The incident and its repercussions were considerable. According to Hasia R. Diner, in The Jews of the United States, 1654 to 2000, "For the Jews, the Damascus affair launched modern Jewish politics on an international scale, and for American Jews it represented their first effort at creating a distinctive political agenda. Just as the United States had used this affair to proclaim its presence on the global scale, so too did American Jews, in their newspapers and at mass meetings, announce to their coreligionists in France and England that they too ought to be thought of players in global Jewish diplomacy."[8]

According to Johannes Valentin Schwarz, the events also encouraged the growth of the modern Jewish press. "As a result, a sense of solidarity was evoked among the Jewish communities of Europe they had never experienced before. Thus, the Damascus Affair gave birth to modern Jewish press especially in Western Europe, such as to the long-lived papers Les Archives Israélites de France (1840-1935) in Paris or The Jewish Chronicle (1841 ff.) in London."[9]

That is a Zionist myth.

Myth #1 – Jews and Arabs have always been in conflict in the region.
Although Arabs were a majority in Palestine prior to the creation of the state of Israel, there had always been a Jewish population, as well. For the most part, Jewish Palestinians got along with their Arab neighbors. This began to change with the onset of the Zionist movement, because the Zionists rejected the right of the Palestinians to self-determination and wanted Palestine for their own, to create a “Jewish State” in a region where Arabs were the majority and owned most of the land.

For instance, after a series of riots in Jaffa in 1921 resulting in the deaths of 47 Jews and 48 Arabs, the occupying British held a commission of inquiry, which reported their finding that “there is no inherent anti-Semitism in the country, racial or religious.” Rather, Arab attacks on Jewish communities were the result of Arab fears about the stated goal of the Zionists to take over the land.​

 

[Shusha]

Give me a break, they also claim Islam came before Judaism
Arabs came from a much wider variety of countries than Jews at the time.

Palestinian-Arabs and Palestinian-Jews are the people who never left the area. They have been living there for 2000 years. Zionists, on the other hand, just moved into the area at the turn of the last century and brought with them all the violence and racism we see today.

And BOTH Arab Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians should have States on that territory, and yes, that includes all of the Arab Palestinians who migrated to the territory over time AND all the Jewish Palestinians who returned and migrated to the territory over time.

 

[Billo_Really]

And BOTH Arab Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians should have States on that territory, and yes, that includes all of the Arab Palestinians who migrated to the territory over time AND all the Jewish Palestinians who returned and migrated to the territory over time.

Indigenous Palestinians have rights. You cannot move into an area and automatically have more rights than the people already living there.

 

[rylah]

There was violence long before any Zionist ever shot a bullet.
The society in Syria-Palestine was widely divided, sectarian and full of violence.
The first tools used to create an international Jewish political movement, were created as a response to Arab Pogroms against their Jewish neighbors.

Damascus affair
The incident and its repercussions were considerable. According to Hasia R. Diner, in The Jews of the United States, 1654 to 2000, "For the Jews, the Damascus affair launched modern Jewish politics on an international scale, and for American Jews it represented their first effort at creating a distinctive political agenda. Just as the United States had used this affair to proclaim its presence on the global scale, so too did American Jews, in their newspapers and at mass meetings, announce to their coreligionists in France and England that they too ought to be thought of players in global Jewish diplomacy."[8]

According to Johannes Valentin Schwarz, the events also encouraged the growth of the modern Jewish press. "As a result, a sense of solidarity was evoked among the Jewish communities of Europe they had never experienced before. Thus, the Damascus Affair gave birth to modern Jewish press especially in Western Europe, such as to the long-lived papers Les Archives Israélites de France (1840-1935) in Paris or The Jewish Chronicle (1841 ff.) in London."[9]

That is a Zionist myth.

Myth #1 – Jews and Arabs have always been in conflict in the region.
Although Arabs were a majority in Palestine prior to the creation of the state of Israel, there had always been a Jewish population, as well. For the most part, Jewish Palestinians got along with their Arab neighbors. This began to change with the onset of the Zionist movement, because the Zionists rejected the right of the Palestinians to self-determination and wanted Palestine for their own, to create a “Jewish State” in a region where Arabs were the majority and owned most of the land.

For instance, after a series of riots in Jaffa in 1921 resulting in the deaths of 47 Jews and 48 Arabs, the occupying British held a commission of inquiry, which reported their finding that “there is no inherent anti-Semitism in the country, racial or religious.” Rather, Arab attacks on Jewish communities were the result of Arab fears about the stated goal of the Zionists to take over the land.​

Arabs massacred their Jewish neighbors in Palestine long before any Zionist ever shot a bullet.

Written by a Palestinian Jew of Safed about the Arab massacres of 1834:

"Now I have come to announce the large losses and afflictions that have been created in Israel in four countries, ie Jerusalem,and Hebron and the Upper Galilee, namely Safed. And the lower Galilee, namely the city of Tabriya. By the hands of the plunderers and looters that rose in the country. And they come only upon the Jews...
On Sunday, eight days in the month of Sivan, the looters, inhabitants of the villages joined with the inhabitants of the cities. They had weapons of war and shields and fell upon all the Jews and stripped their clothes from men and women. They expelled them naked from the city, and plundered all their property...
The remnants were coerced and raped whether men or women. Tore all the Torah scrolls, and their talit and tefilin and the city was abandoned... This was so for 33 days, so was done in the city of Safed, so was done in other towns."

Periodicals of people of Israel in Eretz Israel - Menachem Mendel ben- Aaaron 1800-1873

Q. Harmony much?

 

[Billo_Really]

Arabs massacred their Jewish neighbors in Palestine long before any Zionist ever shot a bullet.

Written by a Palestinian Jew of Safed about the Arab massacres of 1834:

"Now I have come to announce the large losses and afflictions that have been created in Israel in four countries, ie Jerusalem,and Hebron and the Upper Galilee, namely Safed. And the lower Galilee, namely the city of Tabriya. By the hands of the plunderers and looters that rose in the country. And they come only upon the Jews...
On Sunday, eight days in the month of Sivan, the looters, inhabitants of the villages joined with the inhabitants of the cities. They had weapons of war and shields and fell upon all the Jews and stripped their clothes from men and women. They expelled them naked from the city, and plundered all their property...
The remnants were coerced and raped whether men or women. Tore all the Torah scrolls, and their talit and tefilin and the city was abandoned... This was so for 33 days, so was done in the city of Safed, so was done in other towns."

Periodicals of people of Israel in Eretz Israel - Menachem Mendel ben- Aaaron 1800-1873

Q. Harmony much?

And nothing for almost a 100 years after that, until Zionists showed up with their violence and racism.

 

[Shusha]

And BOTH Arab Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians should have States on that territory, and yes, that includes all of the Arab Palestinians who migrated to the territory over time AND all the Jewish Palestinians who returned and migrated to the territory over time.

Indigenous Palestinians have rights. You cannot move into an area and automatically have more rights than the people already living there.

The Jewish people were living there. Have been for thousands and thousands of years. Longer than any other identifiable people. The Jewish people who were living there have every right to part of that territory. And those removed and returning have every right as well.

The ENTIRE Arab Palestinian position depends on those two points. You can't support it for the Arabs and not support it for the Jews. Unless, you know....

 

[rylah]

Arabs massacred their Jewish neighbors in Palestine long before any Zionist ever shot a bullet.

Written by a Palestinian Jew of Safed about the Arab massacres of 1834:

"Now I have come to announce the large losses and afflictions that have been created in Israel in four countries, ie Jerusalem,and Hebron and the Upper Galilee, namely Safed. And the lower Galilee, namely the city of Tabriya. By the hands of the plunderers and looters that rose in the country. And they come only upon the Jews...
On Sunday, eight days in the month of Sivan, the looters, inhabitants of the villages joined with the inhabitants of the cities. They had weapons of war and shields and fell upon all the Jews and stripped their clothes from men and women. They expelled them naked from the city, and plundered all their property...
The remnants were coerced and raped whether men or women. Tore all the Torah scrolls, and their talit and tefilin and the city was abandoned... This was so for 33 days, so was done in the city of Safed, so was done in other towns."

Periodicals of people of Israel in Eretz Israel - Menachem Mendel ben- Aaaron 1800-1873

Q. Harmony much?

And nothing for almost a 100 years after that, until Zionists showed up with their violence and racism.

This is 46 years before the 1st Zionist immigration,
another Arab Pogrom against Jews of Sefad happened 3 years later.

Apparently Arabs didn't think Jews would rise arms against this Disneyland.
Just to think that they themselves gave push to Zionism and even helped Britain invade the land...

 

[P F Tinmore]

Give me a break, they also claim Islam came before Judaism
Arabs came from a much wider variety of countries than Jews at the time.

Palestinian-Arabs and Palestinian-Jews are the people who never left the area. They have been living there for 2000 years. Zionists, on the other hand, just moved into the area at the turn of the last century and brought with them all the violence and racism we see today.

And BOTH Arab Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians should have States on that territory, and yes, that includes all of the Arab Palestinians who migrated to the territory over time AND all the Jewish Palestinians who returned and migrated to the territory over time.

And BOTH Arab Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians should have States on that territory,

But they did not want to be separated.

 

[P F Tinmore]

And BOTH Arab Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians should have States on that territory, and yes, that includes all of the Arab Palestinians who migrated to the territory over time AND all the Jewish Palestinians who returned and migrated to the territory over time.

Indigenous Palestinians have rights. You cannot move into an area and automatically have more rights than the people already living there.

The Jewish people were living there. Have been for thousands and thousands of years. Longer than any other identifiable people. The Jewish people who were living there have every right to part of that territory. And those removed and returning have every right as well.

The ENTIRE Arab Palestinian position depends on those two points. You can't support it for the Arabs and not support it for the Jews. Unless, you know....

The Jewish people were living there. Have been for thousands and thousands of years. Longer than any other identifiable people.

And it worked for everybody.

Then the Zionists came and fucked everything up.

 

[Shusha]

But they did not want to be separated.

I don't believe you. They do now.

 

[Hollie]

And it worked for everybody.

Not true. Most of those “everybody's” were relegated to dhimmi status in accordance with the ideals of Islamic fascism.

 

[Shusha]

And it worked for everybody.

Then the Zionists came and fucked everything up.

Ah. The Jews-are-good-but-Zionists-are-evil trope. Let's just unpack that, shall we?

Recalling the meaning of the word "Zionist" as a person calling for the return of the Jewish people to their historical, ancestral and religious homeland and entitled to rights of sovereignty there....

Jews are good. Jews are non-violent. There is no conflict between Arabs and Jews. BECAUSE Jews voluntarily self-restrict their own rights by denying any historical, ancestral or religious attachment to their own homeland especially any claim to rights of sovereignty there. Jews are content to live as a minority, to be unequal in the law, to be dhimmis, to be slaughtered only occasionally, and treated mostly better in comparison to historical Christian pogroms and genocides. Jews acknowledge that they have no rights to self-determination or self-governance.

Zionists, on the other hand, are evil. They cause trouble. They are the source of the conflict. The mere presence of Zionists is problematic. They assert their rights to equality, to life, to a history and a religious faith and yes, to sovereignty, in the land of their fathers and mothers.

 

[P F Tinmore]

And it worked for everybody.

Not true. Most of those “everybody's” were relegated to dhimmi status in accordance with the ideals of Islamic fascism.

More bullshit. The dhimmi status was eliminated in the middle of the 19th century.

 

[P F Tinmore]

And it worked for everybody.

Then the Zionists came and fucked everything up.

Ah. The Jews-are-good-but-Zionists-are-evil trope. Let's just unpack that, shall we?

Recalling the meaning of the word "Zionist" as a person calling for the return of the Jewish people to their historical, ancestral and religious homeland and entitled to rights of sovereignty there....

Jews are good. Jews are non-violent. There is no conflict between Arabs and Jews. BECAUSE Jews voluntarily self-restrict their own rights by denying any historical, ancestral or religious attachment to their own homeland especially any claim to rights of sovereignty there. Jews are content to live as a minority, to be unequal in the law, to be dhimmis, to be slaughtered only occasionally, and treated mostly better in comparison to historical Christian pogroms and genocides. Jews acknowledge that they have no rights to self-determination or self-governance.

Zionists, on the other hand, are evil. They cause trouble. They are the source of the conflict. The mere presence of Zionists is problematic. They assert their rights to equality, to life, to a history and a religious faith and yes, to sovereignty, in the land of their fathers and mothers.

Recalling the meaning of the word "Zionist" as a person calling for the return of the Jewish people...

Political Zionism was a settler colonial project.

 

[Hollie]

And it worked for everybody.

Not true. Most of those “everybody's” were relegated to dhimmi status in accordance with the ideals of Islamic fascism.

More bullshit. The dhimmi status was eliminated in the middle of the 19th century.

I can see you’re angry about the facts but the facts are that the Islamic settler colonial project represented by the Ottoman Turks enforced the dhimmi status on non-Islamics.

 

[Shusha]

Political Zionism was a settler colonial project.

You can't colonize your own homeland. Zionism is, and always has been, the desire to return to ancestral and historical homeland.

Somehow I think if I differentiated the Arab Palestinians who remain in Israel/Palestine and the Arab Palestinians in the diaspora and weighted them as "good" and "evil", you'd find that problematic. We could try it. I just have to come up with a good label for the diaspora Arab Palestinians. Maybe I'll just call them Europeans like you do.

 

[montelatici]

Palestine was the homeland of the people who lived there before it was colonized by the Europeans, who happened to be of the Jewish faith. The fact that a bunch of European converts to Judaism decided that Palestine was their homeland, doesn't it make it so. And, it gave them no right to expel the Muslims and Christian from their homeland.

 

[Hollie]

Palestine was the homeland of the people who lived there before it was colonized by the Europeans, who happened to be of the Jewish faith. The fact that a bunch of European converts to Judaism decided that Palestine was their homeland, doesn't it make it so. And, it gave them no right to expel the Muslims and Christian from their homeland.

The geographic area of Palestine was an Islamist settler colonial project of the Ottoman Turks. The collapse of that settler colonial project was finalized at the end of WW1.

Subsequently, the Jewish National Home was established.

Whine about that all you wish.