The Old City Jerusalem Plan

[dilloduck]

Ask yourself this: would the US have "given" back Japan if every couple weeks, a Japanese terrorist killed several Americans? The US stopped attacking Japan because Japan accepted the US's right to exist, something the Palestinians refuse to do. I understand you are trying to make an analogy but I don't think that this particular one was relevant enough to support your position.

no problem---too tired to make the effort. I just hope they stop someday--it would be nice.

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

would Israel allow jerusalem to be run by an international group who allowed all faiths to access it ?

Why does it need to be run by an international group for all faiths to have access to it? Today, like for the last 40 years, all faiths have had access to it. In fact, it was only since 1967 that ALL faiths had access to it because before that, Jews and Christian (and their holy places) were not safeguarded. While Jordan was "caring" for Jerusalem, they destroyed synagogues and desacrated a Jewish cemetery, using the tombstones to build roads. After 1967, the story changed.

Israeli law:

Whoever does anything that is likely to violate the freedom of access of the members of the various religions to the places sacred to them is liable to imprisonment for a term of five years.

Les Filles de la Charite de l'Hospice Saint Vincent de Paul of Jerusalem:

Our work here has been made especially happy and its path smoother by the goodwill of Israeli authorities... smoother not only for ourselves, but (more importantly) for the Arabs in our care. The recent war, moreover, has revealed them to us-both the soldiers and the civilians-as deserving of our deepest admiration.

Jimmy Carter:

There is unimpeded access today. There wasn't from 1948-67.

 

[manu1959]

Why does it need to be run by an international group for all faiths to have access to it? Today, like for the last 40 years, all faiths have had access to it. In fact, it was only since 1967 that ALL faiths had access to it because before that, Jews and Christian (and their holy places) were not safeguarded. While Jordan was "caring" for Jerusalem, they destroyed synagogues and desacrated a Jewish cemetery, using the tombstones to build roads. After 1967, the story changed.

Israeli law:

Les Filles de la Charite de l'Hospice Saint Vincent de Paul of Jerusalem:

Jimmy Carter:

fair enough...what is your solution?

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

no problem---too tired to make the effort. I just hope they stop someday--it would be nice.

I sometimes think the only way this world will ever truly see peace is if we get invaded by aliens. At that point we will either
1. continue fighting amongst ourselves, get completely destroyed, and the earth will see peace... although under alien rule or
2. realize that borders are artificial dividers, races are artificial dividers, religion is an artificial divider, and we had better work together to kick some alien ass!!!

Until that time though, you kill my brother in the name of your country/race/religion and I have no choice but to kill you in the name of mine. Appeasement has never once, truly worked in our long, violent history as homo sapiens.

 

[manu1959]

Appeasement has never once, truly worked in our long, violent history as homo sapiens.

you appease or are appeased every day...it is why you are not in jail...

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

fair enough...what is your solution?

I don't pretend to be smarter than the hundreds or thousands of people that have failed to come up with a good solution in the past. I do know that appeasement is not a solution because at BEST, it stops the hostilities for only a short period of time.

We seem to, as a species, be very fond of quick fixes. Russia must have capitalism, Iraq must have democracy, Palestine/Israel must make peace, NOW! I believe there is so much hatred in the hearts of Palestinians that even if Israel gave them every single thing they asked for, once the smoke cleared, there wouldn't be a single Jew left alive in the area.

I believe that this generation of Palestinians is lost and that a wall is the best solution for now. When two brothers are fighting and punching and screaming at each other, you give them a time out, you let them calm down, and THEN you ask them to talk. That whole area needs a timeout for at least 1 generation and I think the wall is the best way of doing that. I think the international community, hopefully with the help of the Israelis (if Palestine doesn't snub them like Sri Lanka did), and hopefully with the help of other Arab countries like Jordan, will have to help give the Palestinians some semblence of normal life. I'm not even talking about throwing money at the problem. I'm talking about sending expertise and materials to build an infrastructure, to build an economy. Right now the Palestinians feel they have nothing to lose, so give them something to lose!

It isn't a quick fix but I think that every time we try to implement a quick fix, we do it at the expense of long term fixes. Let's all agree this won't go away now and start laying down the foundation for it to go away in 50 years. That is my solution.

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

you appease or are appeased every day...it is why you are not in jail...

I don't understand.

 

[manu1959]

I don't understand.

there is a large porotion of the world's society that uses apeasment to keep the peace... i was just saying that on an individual level we use it every day to keep the peace in our lives...

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

there is a large porotion of the world's society that uses apeasment to keep the peace... i was just saying that on an individual level we use it every day to keep the peace in our lives...

I disagree totally. When people rob banks, we don't catch them and then let them go if they promise not to do it again. We punish them and tell them the punishment will be even worse if they do it again.

In some cases we may use appeasement when we don't have the power to fight back. If I have a gun to the back of my head, I will probably choose the appeasement route! After the immediate danger has passed though, I will do everything in my power to unappease. :chains:

 

[manu1959]

firts of i was talking about a majority of society not the bank robers...but what the hell

I disagree totally. When people rob banks, we don't catch them and then let them go if they promise not to do it again. We punish them and tell them the punishment will be even worse if they do it again.:

they don't go to jail for life...they go for a while...we talk with them, we train them, we medicate them, then we let them out and monitor them we apease them so they will behave

In some cases we may use appeasement when we
don't have the power to fight back. If I have a gun to the back of my head, I will probably choose the appeasement route! After the immediate danger has passed though, I will do everything in my power to unappease. :chains:

i belive this is what is happening in israel...i will leave it to you to pick who has a gun to whose head

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

they don't go to jail for life...they go for a while...we talk with them, we train them, we medicate them, then we let them out and monitor them we apease them so they will behave

I think that what we are doing is not giving up on them which I see as being something very different than appeasement. Appeasement is giving them what they want. They don't want to give up the money they stole, they don't want to go to jail for a while, they don't want to talk with us. We have not appeased them, we have merely tried to rehabilitate them.

i belive this is what is happening in israel...i will leave it to you to pick who has a gun to whose head

Hehe, touche! I suspect we would answer that question differently but your point is made and agreed with.

 

[manu1959]

I think that what we are doing is not giving up on them which I see as being something very different than appeasement. Appeasement is giving them what they want. They don't want to give up the money they stole, they don't want to go to jail for a while, they don't want to talk with us. We have not appeased them, we have merely tried to rehabilitate them.


Hehe, touche! I suspect we would answer that question differently but your point is made and agreed with.

fair enough on your first point...my answer on your second may surprise you

i belive that israel and pick you opponent should be allowed to sort out their own problems with zero interference from anyone let them blow each others brains out all over the sand

 

[dilloduck]

fair enough on your first point...my answer on your second may surprise you

i belive that israel and pick you opponent should be allowed to sort out their own problems with zero interference from anyone let them blow each others brains out all over the sand

Agreed--International alliances have allowed this murderous stalement to go on as long as it has. The countries funding this crap are just as guilty.

 

[j07950]

See I've got a problem with this whole Israel thing. It's such a complex thing that it's easy to put the blame on the palestinians, they're arabs anyway right???

I'm totally against the terrorists attacks by the Hamas group and so on...but what is wrong with fighting for ones land? I mean this land was the palestinians to begin with, or at least had been for 100's of years... Zionism at the end of the 19th century led jewish people to create a state of their own and they choose palestine, where they bought little by little the land of palestinians, thus chassing them of of their own land and denying them jobs (this was actually legal). Through the Balfour declaration (November 2 1917)Britain said it was favorable to the creation of a jewish state in Palestine, when it didn't have legitimacy to decide over a territory that didn't belong to them, offering it to a population that didn't live there, and not asking Palestinians about it. Palestinians were only imformed a year later. They contested it and fought through the years for their rights to their land. In 1937 a rebellion led to a repression by british soldiers. Palestinians have to fight on two fronts, against the british who are deciding their fate without consulting them, and against the jewish population which is acquiring every bit of land it can, while denying palestinians jobs. Britain sees it has failed and tries to disengage from palestine. In 1939 the british government declares that 10 years from then that Palestine will be an independent nation where Palestinians and jews will govern the country. But with the war in europe and all, the US, the UN and the Arab league get involved in Palestine. In 1947 the UN votes the division of palestine with 54% of tha land to the Jewish community. On the eve of the end of the british mandate on Mai the 14th Israel proclaims it's independance, on the 15th the Arab armies move into Palestine. But these armies are weak, few, and disorganized, the Jordanian army (6000 strong troops) staying away because of a pact signed with Israel. This is a one sided affair. It has been said for a long time that Palestinians simply left their lands. But this is not true and historians (mainly jewish historians for that matter) have proved that the population didn't simply leave, they were expeled from their land. Massacres are happening, like in the village of Deir Yassine, where 250 palestinians are killed, outside the region granted to the jewish population by the UN. Villages are destroyed, civilians threatened. All this even before the war between the arab armies and Israel. After the war the population wasn't allowed to come back. These are refugees which still haven't been authorized back on their land, 50 years later. These refugees survive thanks to UN aid. But can you blame them for fighting back? For wanting their land back? I think this whole thing was born out of mistakes leading back to the late 19th and early 20th century. These people (palestinians) were ignored their rights to independance and other nations decided their fate without consulting them...Am I the only one who finds this wrong?
I know the Jews were persecuted in europe and all (I'm doing a module called "Representing the Holocaust" this semester which should be interesting) and I think they have the right to their own land and state. But I think it's gotten way out of control. Israel has done awful things to the palestinians, (not going to get into the UN resoltions don't worry). How can they justify that after everything that was done to them?
And like I said I condemn the terrorist attacks inflicted on Israel. I think both have the right to their own state, the recognition of that state, their own land, and no intervention of armies into each others territory. Hopefully this will be worked on (especially the Jerusalem issue as well). But don't condemn Palestinians for fighting for something that was taken away from them.

 

[David2004]

Prime Minister Sharon said that the State of Israel is going to pull all of Jewish settlements out of the Gaza Strip unilaterally by July 2005. Some of the facts about the Gaza Strip the Israeli government does not what you to know. One only needs to look at the Israel government reaction to the Palestinian attack on the six Jewish Israeli settlers. They are some of the people who have been making the 1.4 million Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip a life of a living hell for the last 37+ years. The 7000 Israeli Jewish settlers control approximately 37% of the Gaza Strip with 1.4 million Palestinians live in the remaining 63% of a hundred square miles of land the Gaza Strip. Hundreds of thousands of the Palestinian people living in the Gaza Strip today are refugees who were force to leave their homes and farms in what is now Israel proper. Today many Palestinian people are living in Ghettos equivalent to the Jewish Ghettos of the thirties in Europe.

Blaming the Palestinian people for the problem we face in this crisis today would be similar to blaming the Jewish people for the Holocaust. The bond created between the Jewish and Christian religious extremists in Israel and the United States are behind the United States government?s policies of today in the Middle East. If the recent facts in history cannot be reported to the people with accuracy today then why would it be any different yesterday? Only by understanding the problems and grievances of both sides can one get nearer to the truth. Most of the American people are only receiving one side of the story the Israeli Party Line ?We are the victims?.

There is no way to undo the wicked things done yesterday only a chance to change our ways for the children of today for a better tomorrow. The timeline of January 1, 2005 to January 15, 2005 is a snapshot of the last 58 years to the problems in Palestinian-Israeli Crisis. The Israeli government saying they will do one thing while they continue to do what they have been doing all along. In the name of Israel?s national defense and security the Israelis have imprisoned the entire population of the people of Palestine. The Israeli government must make atonement for peace and security for the people of Israel and the world. If the people and government of Israel want to raise the credibility and stature of the State of Israel among the international community of nations they will have to make major changes to their ways. Only by addressing the truth to the realities on the ground will peace and security have a chance to grow on both sides.

 

[dilloduck]

Prime Minister Sharon said that the State of Israel is going to pull all of Jewish settlements out of the Gaza Strip unilaterally by July 2005. Some of the facts about the Gaza Strip the Israeli government does not what you to know. One only needs to look at the Israel government reaction to the Palestinian attack on the six Jewish Israeli settlers. They are some of the people who have been making the 1.4 million Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip a life of a living hell for the last 37+ years. The 7000 Israeli Jewish settlers control approximately 37% of the Gaza Strip with 1.4 million Palestinians live in the remaining 63% of a hundred square miles of land the Gaza Strip. Hundreds of thousands of the Palestinian people living in the Gaza Strip today are refugees who were force to leave their homes and farms in what is now Israel proper. Today many Palestinian people are living in Ghettos equivalent to the Jewish Ghettos of the thirties in Europe.

Blaming the Palestinian people for the problem we face in this crisis today would be similar to blaming the Jewish people for the Holocaust. The bond created between the Jewish and Christian religious extremists in Israel and the United States are behind the United States government?s policies of today in the Middle East. If the recent facts in history cannot be reported to the people with accuracy today then why would it be any different yesterday? Only by understanding the problems and grievances of both sides can one get nearer to the truth. Most of the American people are only receiving one side of the story the Israeli Party Line ?We are the victims?.

There is no way to undo the wicked things done yesterday only a chance to change our ways for the children of today for a better tomorrow. The timeline of January 1, 2005 to January 15, 2005 is a snapshot of the last 58 years to the problems in Palestinian-Israeli Crisis. The Israeli government saying they will do one thing while they continue to do what they have been doing all along. In the name of Israel?s national defense and security the Israelis have imprisoned the entire population of the people of Palestine. The Israeli government must make atonement for peace and security for the people of Israel and the world. If the people and government of Israel want to raise the credibility and stature of the State of Israel among the international community of nations they will have to make major changes to their ways. Only by addressing the truth to the realities on the ground will peace and security have a chance to grow on both sides.

Doesn't seem too be a reasonable move by the Israelis' to demand that Abbas reign in terrorism before they return to business as usual?

 

[DaTroof]

Posted by Daud2004

"Blaming the Palestinian people for the problem we face in this crisis today would be similar to blaming the Jewish people for the Holocaust."

Bullshit. Did Israel ever say that Arabs are lower than Jews ?! Did Israel ever put Arabs in concentration camps for extermination ?! Most importantly, Palestinians actually tried to help the Nazis. How many pictures do you want me to post of the Mullah of Jeruslem with Hitler himself. So don't play stupid, because I'm not.

Blaming the Palestinians for what happened is exactly right. Did attacks on Jews start in 48 or something ?! No .. Muslems have abused Jews for generations. Besides .. THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN JEWS IN ISRAEL ... ALWAYS .... LOTS OF THEM !!! Whereas these Jews can trace their lineage back to Moses, many of those claiming to be Palestinian refugees actually came to the area quite recently. The Jews said let's split the land because even before 48 Arabs where massacering Jews in the Holy Land. Did the Arab nations accept this ? No .. how could they ... a Jewish state among Muslem nations. What would the poor slobs on the street say when they realize that there is a thriving economy & democracy next door ?! It would be a Muslem catastrophe. You are missing the big picture that THIS IS ALL ABOUT ISLAM !!! Do you really think that Saudis would raise money for suicide bombers in Palestine if it was still under Ottoman Muslem rule ?! This fight has about as much to do with land as my elbow has to do with my ass. Arabs and even more so Muslems have tons of land. Lots of it just dripping with oil. If israel really wanted it why haven't they marched in to Ciaro, Damascus, and Amman. It's certainly not because they couldn't .. Heck Israel had tanks sitting on the roards to all of these cities over the past 60 years. The answer is that while Israel wants a peacefull coexistence, Muslems want to own the planet. Pretty sure I'm wrong ?! Then how do you explain the Sudan. A Muslem country that is conducting genocide upon it's African citizens for the benefit of the Muslem government. Well ... THE WORLD DOES NOT BELONG TO ISLAM. Muslems should just be lucky that Western powers don't start putting bombs in Muslem schools, Mosques, and social locations.

Long story short ... Muslems can't stand the thought of Jews long before 48 and this is just a continuation. The next time you decide to compare Palestinians and the holocaust keep in mind that the Palestinians openly favored the final solution and made no attempt to hide it. THE %^$&^'N MULAH OF JERUSALEM HAD TEE W/ HITLER .... OFTEN !!! You expect us to picture the poor palestinians being brought to the ovens by the 6 million Jews in Israel. You are sooooo stupid !!! 100 + million Arabs and 1.4 Billion Muslems in the World, but the Jews can't have half of their promissed land on which they have continually lived because it would offend Arab/Muslem pride. Well take that pride and shove it way deep up there. F Muhamed and what he promissed you ... the World does not belong to you. Deal with it and resettle your bretheren Just like the Jews have done with the bretheren kicked out of Muslem countries. It's all good as long as it's under Muslem control. Well, I'll tell you what. orst nightmare scenario is the World under Islamic law. What an F'n nightmare

 

[DaTroof]

Posted by Dillo :
"Doesn't seem to be a reasonable move by the Israelis' to demand that Abbas reign in terrorism before they return to business as usual?"

There are no raesonable moves. Abbas has already said openly that he has no intentions of reigning in the Islamic terrorist organizations (they are all Muslem). So what is it exactly that you want Israel to do. I'll tell you what's reasonable. Since Abbas has decided not to lift a finger, Israel should absolutely seal off the territories and let Abbas deal with his own mess. Since you and I know that mortars will be launched, they will have to be looked at as declerations of war. What would you call it when people under your authority are happily tossing explosives into a sovreign country and you openly akowledge that you have no plans to stop them other then asking them nicely.

So no, there are no "reasonable moves" I don't see any such effort on the Palestinian side and I don't really see you asking for it. The Jews can sacrifice. Why change historical traditions ?!?

 

[DaTroof]

"jewish population which is acquiring every bit of land it can, while denying palestinians jobs"

This is the part that kills me. I'm sorry .. are Jews responsible for Muslem/ Arab unemployment rates ?!? Are you that stupid to blame Jews for apparently buying land and for not hiring Arabs. The biggest employer, even now, of Palestinians has to be Israel. Palestinians attack Israeli border crossings to disway Muslems from working for Jews. It's actually agains the Quoran for a Muslem to be under a Jew (Any non-Muslem for that matter). I hope you can see the big problem here.

Besides ... THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN JEWS IN ISRAEL. So what you would like is for Jews to be a nomadic tribe forever getting lost in the cultures of the World until there are none. Tell you what ... when i can build a synagogue in Suadi Arabia, we will talk again about represion etc. Once again your point is that Muslems rule the World and the Jews can't have jack. Too late bro. Be glad the palestinians have what they have. If a people had moved out of their homes so that I could be enihilated esier I would chase the bastards right off every inch of the land. You bought on margin and now it's margin call. So before you get all might about what the Jews ow these people keep in mind that they moved out of the way so that my family would be able to be slaughtered by advancing Arab armies.

Always amazes me when people who have never lived in israel pretend that they know the Palestinians. I lived there for many years and while I was studying math my counterpart was learning that jews are decendents of dog and pigs (something like that anyway). But it's the Jews that started this all. No .. it's that Islam has yet to learn to share. Like I said ... be glad I was not calling the shots during any of the wars.

 

[DaTroof]

"But don't condemn Palestinians for fighting for something that was taken away from them."

You think that the Palestinians just got booted off their land ?! Do some homework first. The Arab nations instructed these people to leave, and these poor souls where more than happy to oblige so long as the Jews would be sluaghtered. So sorry that didn't work out. Poetic justice does not begin to describe it. Now they want their land back so that they can overpopulate Israel from the inside ?!? You might be retarded, but I am certainly not. Suicide is not my objective here.

And what about the Jews ?!? Been praying for a millenium plus to return to Jerusalem and all you give a rat's ass about is how the Palestinians feel. Well the Palestinians have a billion plus Muslem bretheren, Jews have been exterminated with extreme prejedice around the globe for way too long (in Muslem countries as badly as Germany quite frankly). So don't give me the "Jews can have a state" but only where we are willing to have them F YOU. I haven't been praying for a land ... I've been praying for Jerusalem. Just the fact that Israel is willing to concede the West Bank and gaza is huge. Maybe Israel should have driven all Arabs out and then they would be happy getting anything back.

Have you taken a look at Israel on the map ?!? Why is it wrong for Jews to have a homeland where THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN JEWS when Muslems have authoritarian Muslem regimes that kick Jews out routienly all over the place. Can I build a synagogue in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, etc etc ?! Hell no. These are Muslems only countries. God forbid anyone set up a state in the region that is not Muslem. And even more so .. God forbid that anyone blame the Palestinians and their insistance on violence, or their utter disregard for a formal education, or utter rampant corruptions. Nope .. it's the Jews. No other Arab/Muslem country is a shithole. Must be the Jews.