The Official Zimmerman Trial Verdict Thread

[Oldstyle]

People who try and lie their way out of a situation typically trip themselves up either with conflicting or changing testimony (Jody Arias is a perfect example of that) or the evidence doesn't back up their version of events.

In this case George Zimmerman's story to Police has remained remarkably consistent and it is backed up by things like the phone call records.

But is undermined by logic, physical, and forensic evidence. Such as searching for street signs behind a house, lack of GSR on his jacket indicative of a full arm extension, bullet trajectory inconsistent with the physical situation Zimmerman described, and a body location inconsistent with his stories.

The fact that Zimmerman's wife chose to not disclose the full amount of money that they had received from supporters to the court when it was trying to set his bail somehow invalidates ALL of Zimmerman's testimony given before that ever happened? That's like saying that someone who cheated on their taxes is more likely to be guilty of murder...because they cheated on their taxes.

Zimmerma's wife was not the one that provided finacial asset statement required under Florida law to the court Zimmerman did that. Zimmerman's wife is not the one that made a motion for bail specifically stating there were no significant financial assets and that there was only one passport. Zimmerman did that. Zimmerman is also on audio tape specifically conspiring to hide financial assets and a 2nd passport from the court.

Zimmerman's wife was not the one that had bond revoked specifically for providing false testimony to the court.

With all that said, it is all irrelevant to the court regarding the proceedings that will focus on that night and will not be admissible. It is inadmissible by the prosecution unless the defense opens the door.



>>>>

I've seen the "anti-George Zimmerman" sites that are now disputing the coroner's report and to be quite honest with you, Watcher...most of them are based on faulty information or unsubstantiated rumor. Soot in a circle of two inches around an entrance wound is indicative of a shot from close range just as Zimmerman described and the struggle that was taking place and described by witnesses was at close range just as Zimmerman testified.

 

[WorldWatcher]

The applicable Florida law is as follows:

"776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force."

The highlighting is mine and I did so to point out the important word in that paragraph. There is almost a five minute time period that elapses between the time that Trayvon Martin goes behind the row of buildings out of George Zimmerman's sight and the start of the fight between the two men.

That's not true, that can be shown by comparing timelines of the various recorded calls.

IIRC the dispatcher call was received at 19:11 and lasted 4 minutes 11 seconds. That call ended then at about 19:15:11. Phone records show that the Witness #8 inbound call to Martins phone occurred at 19:12 and lasted 4 minutes (I'm sure the prosecution has more exact ones now). That call ended with the confrontation then at 19:16.

The first neighbor 911 call was received at 19:16:11 (time stampted on the same system Zimmerman's dispatcher call). Using only the Sanford Police time stamps there is a difference of only 60 seconds between the end of Zimmerman's call and the first 911 call. Factor in the phone records of Witness #8's call and the unaccounted for time is down to approximately 11 seconds.

So the "imminent threat" window isn't "five minutes" is the seconds between the end of the phone calls and the first 911 call which by that time the altercation was already in progress.

>>>>

The almost five minute time frame I'm referencing is the time from when Martin goes behind the row of buildings and Zimmerman can no longer see him as he's sitting in his SUV...and the time when the conflict begins and Martin's phone goes dead. Who cares about the first 9/11 call! The almost five minutes is the amount of time that Zimmerman has no knowledge of Trayvon Martin's whereabouts.

The time hack that Zimmerman's notes that Martin is running is 2 minutes 8 seconds into the dispatcher call. From 19:11 to that time then is 13:08. The Witness call ended at 19:16 and the first 911 calls were at 19:16:11. That is incorrect, from the time that martin ran to the time of confrontation is less than 3 minutes.

The post that I replied to appeared to imply that because of this 5 minutes of which you speak (which isn't 5 minutes) that there was no "Imminent" threat.

The timeline presented above shows that once Martin ran we can confirm that they were not in confrontation for most of the time. The time between Zimmerman noting Martin ran away and the end the Witness #8 call when they came back together (somehow). From that point there is only a few seconds to the first 911 calls.

Those few seconds are the important hole in determining if Martin preceived an "imminent" treat from this unknown individual who had followed him across the housing development in his vehicle and then pursued him on foot - from Martin perspective.


>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

People who try and lie their way out of a situation typically trip themselves up either with conflicting or changing testimony (Jody Arias is a perfect example of that) or the evidence doesn't back up their version of events.

In this case George Zimmerman's story to Police has remained remarkably consistent and it is backed up by things like the phone call records.

But is undermined by logic, physical, and forensic evidence. Such as searching for street signs behind a house, lack of GSR on his jacket indicative of a full arm extension, bullet trajectory inconsistent with the physical situation Zimmerman described, and a body location inconsistent with his stories.

The fact that Zimmerman's wife chose to not disclose the full amount of money that they had received from supporters to the court when it was trying to set his bail somehow invalidates ALL of Zimmerman's testimony given before that ever happened? That's like saying that someone who cheated on their taxes is more likely to be guilty of murder...because they cheated on their taxes.

Zimmerma's wife was not the one that provided finacial asset statement required under Florida law to the court Zimmerman did that. Zimmerman's wife is not the one that made a motion for bail specifically stating there were no significant financial assets and that there was only one passport. Zimmerman did that. Zimmerman is also on audio tape specifically conspiring to hide financial assets and a 2nd passport from the court.

Zimmerman's wife was not the one that had bond revoked specifically for providing false testimony to the court.

With all that said, it is all irrelevant to the court regarding the proceedings that will focus on that night and will not be admissible. It is inadmissible by the prosecution unless the defense opens the door.



>>>>

I've seen the "anti-George Zimmerman" sites that are now disputing the coroner's report and to be quite honest with you, Watcher...most of them are based on faulty information or unsubstantiated rumor. Soot in a circle of two inches around an entrance wound is indicative of a shot from close range just as Zimmerman described and the struggle that was taking place and described by witnesses was at close range just as Zimmerman testified.

I'm not sure what you are talking about?

I wasn't talking about the damage to Martin's chest, that clearly shows that the muzzle of the firearm was in very close proximity to the chest due to the stippling of the skin.

I said there was no GSR (Gun Shot Residue) found on the front Zimmerman's jacked chest or sleeve by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement forensics lab. There was GSR found on Zimmerman's hands. Some residue is ejected out the muzzle, but in a semi-automatic pistol residue is also exists via the casing ejection port. In a close chest-to-chest situation (based on Zimmerman's account) then GSR would be present on his jacket being so close to the weapon and it's ejection of smoke and particulate mater (partially burned powder and lead). Lack of GSR could be indicative of the arm being extended away from the body instead of being manipulated between two close chests.

I don't go to "anti-Zimmerman" or "anti-Martin" sites, I read the forensic reports.


>>>>

 

[dilloduck]

That's not true, that can be shown by comparing timelines of the various recorded calls.

IIRC the dispatcher call was received at 19:11 and lasted 4 minutes 11 seconds. That call ended then at about 19:15:11. Phone records show that the Witness #8 inbound call to Martins phone occurred at 19:12 and lasted 4 minutes (I'm sure the prosecution has more exact ones now). That call ended with the confrontation then at 19:16.

The first neighbor 911 call was received at 19:16:11 (time stampted on the same system Zimmerman's dispatcher call). Using only the Sanford Police time stamps there is a difference of only 60 seconds between the end of Zimmerman's call and the first 911 call. Factor in the phone records of Witness #8's call and the unaccounted for time is down to approximately 11 seconds.

So the "imminent threat" window isn't "five minutes" is the seconds between the end of the phone calls and the first 911 call which by that time the altercation was already in progress.

>>>>

The almost five minute time frame I'm referencing is the time from when Martin goes behind the row of buildings and Zimmerman can no longer see him as he's sitting in his SUV...and the time when the conflict begins and Martin's phone goes dead. Who cares about the first 9/11 call! The almost five minutes is the amount of time that Zimmerman has no knowledge of Trayvon Martin's whereabouts.

The time hack that Zimmerman's notes that Martin is running is 2 minutes 8 seconds into the dispatcher call. From 19:11 to that time then is 13:08. The Witness call ended at 19:16 and the first 911 calls were at 19:16:11. That is incorrect, from the time that martin ran to the time of confrontation is less than 3 minutes.

The post that I replied to appeared to imply that because of this 5 minutes of which you speak (which isn't 5 minutes) that there was no "Imminent" threat.

The timeline presented above shows that once Martin ran we can confirm that they were not in confrontation for most of the time. The time between Zimmerman noting Martin ran away and the end the Witness #8 call when they came back together (somehow). From that point there is only a few seconds to the first 911 calls.

Those few seconds are the important hole in determining if Martin preceived an "imminent" treat from this unknown individual who had followed him across the housing development in his vehicle and then pursued him on foot - from Martin perspective.


>>>>

you giving this timeline credit for a whole lot of precision that I don't think we can give it. For instance--we don't know the precise time Martin starting running. We only know when Zimmerman reported it. etc etc

 

[jon_berzerk]

People who try and lie their way out of a situation typically trip themselves up either with conflicting or changing testimony (Jody Arias is a perfect example of that) or the evidence doesn't back up their version of events.

In this case George Zimmerman's story to Police has remained remarkably consistent and it is backed up by things like the phone call records.

But is undermined by logic, physical, and forensic evidence. Such as searching for street signs behind a house, lack of GSR on his jacket indicative of a full arm extension, bullet trajectory inconsistent with the physical situation Zimmerman described, and a body location inconsistent with his stories.

The fact that Zimmerman's wife chose to not disclose the full amount of money that they had received from supporters to the court when it was trying to set his bail somehow invalidates ALL of Zimmerman's testimony given before that ever happened? That's like saying that someone who cheated on their taxes is more likely to be guilty of murder...because they cheated on their taxes.

Zimmerma's wife was not the one that provided finacial asset statement required under Florida law to the court Zimmerman did that. Zimmerman's wife is not the one that made a motion for bail specifically stating there were no significant financial assets and that there was only one passport. Zimmerman did that. Zimmerman is also on audio tape specifically conspiring to hide financial assets and a 2nd passport from the court.

Zimmerman's wife was not the one that had bond revoked specifically for providing false testimony to the court.

With all that said, it is all irrelevant to the court regarding the proceedings that will focus on that night and will not be admissible. It is inadmissible by the prosecution unless the defense opens the door.



>>>>

I've seen the "anti-George Zimmerman" sites that are now disputing the coroner's report and to be quite honest with you, Watcher...most of them are based on faulty information or unsubstantiated rumor. Soot in a circle of two inches around an entrance wound is indicative of a shot from close range just as Zimmerman described and the struggle that was taking place and described by witnesses was at close range just as Zimmerman testified.

actually if you read the reports

the one that examined martins cloths

said it was a "contact" shot

the coroner had to report "close range" because

there was two layers of clothing between the barrel and skin

 

[Mertex]

The fact Zimmerman was out there with a gun on his person tells me he has out there to hunt someone...

"Be vewy, vewy quiet, I'm hunting wascally coons... er... Punks."

Maybe the cops told him to stand down because they knew he was the local asshole who called the cops every time he saw a black kid skateboarding.

Gee, Joe...I carry routinely...does THAT tell you that I'm out there to "hunt" someone? Because in over twenty years of concealed carry I've never drawn my weapon in anger...let alone shot someone with it. Your contention on that is as full of shit as the rest of your contentions.

As for why the Police told Zimmerman not to follow Martin? They were most likely concerned for Zimmerman's own safety not because they thought he was a racist "local asshole". In this case that concern appears to have been warranted because Martin did indeed attack the man that had been following him.

technically they did not tell him not to follow

but rather we do not need you to do that

Which means the same thing as "don't follow him". Semantics doesn't change what was meant, one bit.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Gee, Joe...I carry routinely...does THAT tell you that I'm out there to "hunt" someone? Because in over twenty years of concealed carry I've never drawn my weapon in anger...let alone shot someone with it. Your contention on that is as full of shit as the rest of your contentions.

As for why the Police told Zimmerman not to follow Martin? They were most likely concerned for Zimmerman's own safety not because they thought he was a racist "local asshole". In this case that concern appears to have been warranted because Martin did indeed attack the man that had been following him.

technically they did not tell him not to follow

but rather we do not need you to do that

Which means the same thing as "don't follow him". Semantics doesn't change what was meant, one bit.

sure it does

 

[WorldWatcher]

The almost five minute time frame I'm referencing is the time from when Martin goes behind the row of buildings and Zimmerman can no longer see him as he's sitting in his SUV...and the time when the conflict begins and Martin's phone goes dead. Who cares about the first 9/11 call! The almost five minutes is the amount of time that Zimmerman has no knowledge of Trayvon Martin's whereabouts.

The time hack that Zimmerman's notes that Martin is running is 2 minutes 8 seconds into the dispatcher call. From 19:11 to that time then is 13:08. The Witness call ended at 19:16 and the first 911 calls were at 19:16:11. That is incorrect, from the time that martin ran to the time of confrontation is less than 3 minutes.

The post that I replied to appeared to imply that because of this 5 minutes of which you speak (which isn't 5 minutes) that there was no "Imminent" threat.

The timeline presented above shows that once Martin ran we can confirm that they were not in confrontation for most of the time. The time between Zimmerman noting Martin ran away and the end the Witness #8 call when they came back together (somehow). From that point there is only a few seconds to the first 911 calls.

Those few seconds are the important hole in determining if Martin preceived an "imminent" treat from this unknown individual who had followed him across the housing development in his vehicle and then pursued him on foot - from Martin perspective.


>>>>

you giving this timeline credit for a whole lot of precision that I don't think we can give it. For instance--we don't know the precise time Martin starting running. We only know when Zimmerman reported it. etc etc

So now we take Zimmerman's version with a grain of salt right? So we don't know if Martin jumped Zimmerman or Zimmerman jumped Martin, the only evidence we have is that was the way Zimmerman reported it right?

Now I fully submit that there can be some deviation in the timeline between the dispatcher/911 calls and Witness #8 call because they came from two different systems. Public phone records to the customer tend to be rounded to they are typically +/- 30 seconds, so we'll have to see if the prosecution presents more exact records direclty from the phone company. However most computers and pretty much all major network operators perform time syncs to the National Institute of Science and Technology (NIST) Internet Time Service (ITS) to their network time protocal server.

However, the dispatcher call by Zimmerman and the 911 calls by the neighbors were recorded and time stamped on the same system. Since they were to the same system we know the dispatcher call was 4 minutes 11 seconds. The first inbound call came in 60 second after the end of that call. When the first 911 call came in the fight was already underway. Therefore we can deteremine based on the timeline of the phone calls that there was less than 60 seconds unaccounted for (by police recordings) where the confrontation took place.

Now, logic says that window is smaller that 60 seconds because Witness #8's phone call has to be accounted for. We know Zimmerman was not on the phone at the start of the altercation because it would be on the dispatcher call. We know the Witness #8 call ended at the point where the altercation started. We know the altercation had already started because that's whey neighbors placed the 911 call. The only time not recorded on the same system is the time between the end of the dispatcher call and the inbound 911 call. I've seen different media sources report different inbound times on the calls, which really doesn't make that big a difference. The important time in the timeline is the differential time from the start of the dispatcher call to elapsed time in the recording.



>>>>

 

[JoeB131]

[
So you rely on the Police to protect you and your loved ones, Joe? And if they aren't around what's your "fall back" plan? I carry a concealed weapon because I'm only too aware that the Police are incapable of protecting us from all the evil people running around out there and if one of them decides myself or the people I love are going to be their next victim...I'm going to use that gun to make sure that doesn't happen. You? You'll be going to the hospital or to a morgue to ID your loved ones because you didn't care enough about their safety to take precautions.

Guy, a gun in your home is 43 times more likely to kill a member of the household than a bad guy.

Because you are a stupid, brain-dead rube that has bought into the NRA/Gun Industry propaganda is pretty much why I want you disarmed. You sound like the Zimmerman type who would plug an innocent kid because he was in the wrong place or had the wrong color skin tone.

This is why I want to make a shining example of Zimmerman. To let people like you know, there are limits.

How many times must you be reminded that that study has been debunked numerous times, most notably, by its author?

Hasn't been debunked once, and Kellerman stands behind his work.

Stamping your little feet and saying "I don't want it to be true" is not a debunking, guy.

 

[Oldstyle]

The time hack that Zimmerman's notes that Martin is running is 2 minutes 8 seconds into the dispatcher call. From 19:11 to that time then is 13:08. The Witness call ended at 19:16 and the first 911 calls were at 19:16:11. That is incorrect, from the time that martin ran to the time of confrontation is less than 3 minutes.

The post that I replied to appeared to imply that because of this 5 minutes of which you speak (which isn't 5 minutes) that there was no "Imminent" threat.

The timeline presented above shows that once Martin ran we can confirm that they were not in confrontation for most of the time. The time between Zimmerman noting Martin ran away and the end the Witness #8 call when they came back together (somehow). From that point there is only a few seconds to the first 911 calls.

Those few seconds are the important hole in determining if Martin preceived an "imminent" treat from this unknown individual who had followed him across the housing development in his vehicle and then pursued him on foot - from Martin perspective.


>>>>

you giving this timeline credit for a whole lot of precision that I don't think we can give it. For instance--we don't know the precise time Martin starting running. We only know when Zimmerman reported it. etc etc

So now we take Zimmerman's version with a grain of salt right? So we don't know if Martin jumped Zimmerman or Zimmerman jumped Martin, the only evidence we have is that was the way Zimmerman reported it right?





>>>>

You're really making the contention that the only evidence we have is George Zimmerman's testimony? Really? So I guess you've decided to totally ignore the injuries that Zimmerman had to his face and to the back of his head? I assume that you've also decided to ignore the lack of injuries to Martin's body except for the gunshot wound and an abrasion in his knuckle? You'll also ignore the initial testimony of Martin's father that the voice calling out for help was not that of his son? You'll also ignore several eyewitnesses that testified that they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman on the ground? Or that the back of Zimmerman's jacket was wet and had grass on it when the Police first arrived on the scene?

Is it just me, Watcher...or do you want me to ignore a lot?

 

[JoeB131]

You're really making the contention that the only evidence we have is George Zimmerman's testimony? Really? So I guess you've decided to totally ignore the injuries that Zimmerman had to his face and to the back of his head? I assume that you've also decided to ignore the lack of injuries to Martin's body except for the gunshot wound and an abrasion in his knuckle? You'll also ignore the initial testimony of Martin's father that the voice calling out for help was not that of his son? You'll also ignore several eyewitnesses that testified that they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman on the ground? Or that the back of Zimmerman's jacket was wet and had grass on it when the Police first arrived on the scene?

Is it just me, Watcher...or do you want me to ignore a lot?

You ignore the most damning thing of all.

A dead child lying on a sidewalk with a bullet hole in him.

Nothing else really matters here, and Zimmerman's attorneys are doing him no favors dirtying up the victim.

Makes me wonder who they are really working for.

 

[WorldWatcher]

you giving this timeline credit for a whole lot of precision that I don't think we can give it. For instance--we don't know the precise time Martin starting running. We only know when Zimmerman reported it. etc etc

So now we take Zimmerman's version with a grain of salt right? So we don't know if Martin jumped Zimmerman or Zimmerman jumped Martin, the only evidence we have is that was the way Zimmerman reported it right?





>>>>

You're really making the contention that the only evidence we have is George Zimmerman's testimony? Really?

Nope not in the least. Zimmerman hasn't "testified" yet, he has provided statements, but he may or may not decide to testify.

So I guess you've decided to totally ignore the injuries that Zimmerman had to his face and to the back of his head?

Nope not in the least. The injuries are there, no doubt. However evidence of losing a fight is not evidence of who is responsible for starting the fight.

I assume that you've also decided to ignore the lack of injuries to Martin's body except for the gunshot wound and an abrasion in his knuckle?

Not in the least. The lack of injuries on Martin's hands is actually inconsistent with the story that Zimmerman told on the audio tapes and video reenactment.

(BTW - My compliments, most people inaccurately report injuries to Martin's knuckles (plural) you are one of the few that accurately describes it as an abrasion on a knuckle (singular).

You'll also ignore the initial testimony of Martin's father that the voice calling out for help was not that of his son?

On this one, yes absolutley. We've seen testimony over the last three days from audio and speech forensic experts that there is NOW WAY to identify who was yelling during the 3-seconds of screams that were recorded.

So ya, I'd ignore it, just as I would ignore his later identification that is was Martin screaming.

You'll also ignore several eyewitnesses that testified that they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman on the ground?

Nope not in the least. The witnesses are there, no doubt. However evidence of losing a fight is not evidence of who is responsible for starting the fight.

Or that the back of Zimmerman's jacket was wet and had grass on it when the Police first arrived on the scene?

Nope not in the least. The officers observation was there, no doubt. However evidence (or in this case an observation) of Zimmerman having a wet back is not evidence of who is responsible for starting the fight.

Is it just me, Watcher...or do you want me to ignore a lot?

Nope not in the least.

I also would like you not to ignore...

1. Street Name: Zimmerman claimed he followed Martin to use the pass through to the north side of two housing sections to find a street sign so he could give an address to the police because he didn't know what street he was on. A couple of things were that doesn't ring true. First, there are only 3 streets in the development (Twin Trees Lane, Retreat View Circle, and Long Oak Way). Zimmerman lived on Retreat View Circle which is the street he says he was going through to find the name of, the same street he lived on. Retreat view Circle is a street that loops around the whole complex, The other street is the one he drives into and out of every time he entered or left the development for the two years he lived there which is Twin Trees Lane which bisects the loop created by Retreat View Circle. Second, there are no street signs on houses, there are house numbers. The closest street sign which would tell him the name of Twin Trees Lane was back toward the clubhouse in the exact opposite direction that he headed. He lived there for two years and was the Captain of the Neighborhood Watch and didn't know the name of the main street running through the development and didn't know where to go to find a street sign (which are at intersections)? He was an adult and didn't know that street signs are not mounted in the darkened area behind houses?

2. Lack of Damage to Martins Hands: Zimmerman claimed that Martin punched him in the face over a dozen times. The autopsy report shows that there was only one small abrasion measuring 1/8 x 1/4 inch on one finger of the left hand. Someone pummeling someone else in the head (a boney structure) will likely have more offensive damage to their hands than one small abrasion. We know that Martin got at least one shot in because of Zimmerman's nosebleed, that injury is consistent with that, but that is not consistent with being beaten severely about the head by being punched dozens of times.

3. Martin Covered Zimmerman's Nose and Mouth: Standard autopsy procedures are to conduct a through external examination of the body and do not damage and other surface details. This was done. Zimmerman claims that Martin attacked him and the first thing he did was punch him in the face damaging his nose, which we know bled because of photographs at the scene. Zimmerman also claimed that Martin covered his mouth and nose with his hands during the struggle. However the autopsy report does not indicate there was any blood on Martin's hand. In addition a DNA analysis of samples from the hand returned none of Zimmerman's DNA (which would have been contained in the blood) and forensic examination of Martin's hoodie cuffs (both) returned negative results for Zimmerman's DNA.

4. Bullet Trajectory: See image below. Zimmerman described the struggle occurring in this type of configuration. Martin on top of and straddling Martin. Zimmerman's firearm was holstered on the right side, back of his body. Zimmerman said that Martin grabbed for the gun in the holster. First of all how would Martin have known the gun was there under Zimmerman's jacket. Secondly Zimmerman would have had to get his arm under Martin's leg. Finally, take a moment and close your eyes and think of the articulation of a persons shoulder, elbow, and wrist. Now, the autopsy report shows that the bullet travel was straight into Martins chest (in other words perpendicular to the chest and not at an angle either up/down or left/right). Pulling a weapon from a hip holstered weapon, the most natural movement would result in the weapons being placed against the attackers side shooting up. Having to manipulate the weapon between the bodies, lift it to be level with the chest, and then bending the wrists "down" (i.e. toward your own feet) is a very unnatural position for the arm.

(Credit to Who for the image)

5. Gun Shot Residue (GSR): When a weapon is discharge chemically laden smoke and partially burned gunpowder is ejected down the barrel and out through the ejection port (for semi-automatics). Now if Zimmerman was below Martin and their chests were in close proximity then discharging a firearm between then is going to provide a fairly close proximity of Zimmerman's cloths to the source of of GSR (in other words the fired gun). Forensic examination of Zimmerman's clothing showed no GSR on Zimmerman's jacket front or on the front of the sleeves. There was GSR on Zimmerman's hands. Not having GSR on the clothing indicates Zimmerman's arm was extended at the time the shot was fired, which means the his arm would have been extended through Martins chest.

6. Who Confronted Who: Zimmerman initially claimed that Martin jumped him (audio tapes) and said threatening things to him when he was on the ground, by the next morning in the video reenactment Martin approached Zimmerman and then then spoke to him and then attacked. However Zimmerman didn't know that night and during the next mornings reenactment that Martin was on the phone with his girlfriend. This is confirmed through phone records. It appears that the girlfriend will testify that she heard a male voice speaking to Martin first, a direct contradiction of both versions that Zimmerman claimed.

7. Location of Martins Body #1: During the audio tapes Zimmerman claimed Martin jumped him and knocked him to the ground on the east/west path, the next morning Zimmerman pointed out the location of where he said he and Martin first came together (which was at the "T" intersection of the sidewalk) as Zimmerman was walking back to his truck (after crossing to look for a street sign that wouldn't have been there) and that's how he and Martin came together. Zimmerman claimed he never went down the south path of the "T" sidewalk, that Martin knocked him to the ground at the "T" intersection, that Martin then jumped on top of him (which is were he remained for the struggle), Zimmerman shot Martin on top of him, with Martin now dead from a gunshot wound with a bullet through the heart and lung, Zimmerman describes rolling the body off and then getting on top of the body and spreading the hands out. The only problem is that Martin's body was 40-50 feet or so south of the intersection. A location inconsistent with Zimmerman's description of events.

8. Location of Martins Body #2:Zimmerman claimed that he shot Martin when he was bashing his head into the concrete, yet Martin’s body was not near the sidewalk. Martin's body was located 3-4 body lengths away from the sidewalk in the grassy area. A location inconsistent with Zimmerman's description of firing his weapon into Martin because Martin was beating his head into the concrete.

9. Zimmerman Parking At the Clubhouse: During the video reenactment, Zimmerman told police where to park at the clubhouse and indicated that was where he stopped the previous night. However internal video surveillance from the clubshouse shows other headlights driving by, but no headlights from Zimmerman parking like he described.​

>>>>

 

[Esmeralda]

So now we take Zimmerman's version with a grain of salt right? So we don't know if Martin jumped Zimmerman or Zimmerman jumped Martin, the only evidence we have is that was the way Zimmerman reported it right?





>>>>

You're really making the contention that the only evidence we have is George Zimmerman's testimony? Really?

Nope not in the least. Zimmerman hasn't "testified" yet, he has provided statements, but he may or may not decide to testify.



Nope not in the least. The injuries are there, no doubt. However evidence of losing a fight is not evidence of who is responsible for starting the fight.



Not in the least. The lack of injuries on Martin's hands is actually inconsistent with the story that Zimmerman told on the audio tapes and video reenactment.

(BTW - My compliments, most people inaccurately report injuries to Martin's knuckles (plural) you are one of the few that accurately describes it as an abrasion on a knuckle (singular).



On this one, yes absolutley. We've seen testimony over the last three days from audio and speech forensic experts that there is NOW WAY to identify who was yelling during the 3-seconds of screams that were recorded.

So ya, I'd ignore it, just as I would ignore his later identification that is was Martin screaming.




Nope not in the least. The witnesses are there, no doubt. However evidence of losing a fight is not evidence of who is responsible for starting the fight.

Or that the back of Zimmerman's jacket was wet and had grass on it when the Police first arrived on the scene?

Nope not in the least. The officers observation was there, no doubt. However evidence (or in this case an observation) of Zimmerman having a wet back is not evidence of who is responsible for starting the fight.

Is it just me, Watcher...or do you want me to ignore a lot?

Nope not in the least.

I also would like you not to ignore...

1. Street Name: Zimmerman claimed he followed Martin to use the pass through to the north side of two housing sections to find a street sign so he could give an address to the police because he didn't know what street he was on. A couple of things were that doesn't ring true. First, there are only 3 streets in the development (Twin Trees Lane, Retreat View Circle, and Long Oak Way). Zimmerman lived on Retreat View Circle which is the street he says he was going through to find the name of, the same street he lived on. Retreat view Circle is a street that loops around the whole complex, The other street is the one he drives into and out of every time he entered or left the development for the two years he lived there which is Twin Trees Lane which bisects the loop created by Retreat View Circle. Second, there are no street signs on houses, there are house numbers. The closest street sign which would tell him the name of Twin Trees Lane was back toward the clubhouse in the exact opposite direction that he headed. He lived there for two years and was the Captain of the Neighborhood Watch and didn't know the name of the main street running through the development and didn't know where to go to find a street sign (which are at intersections)? He was an adult and didn't know that street signs are not mounted in the darkened area behind houses?

2. Lack of Damage to Martins Hands: Zimmerman claimed that Martin punched him in the face over a dozen times. The autopsy report shows that there was only one small abrasion measuring 1/8 x 1/4 inch on one finger of the left hand. Someone pummeling someone else in the head (a boney structure) will likely have more offensive damage to their hands than one small abrasion. We know that Martin got at least one shot in because of Zimmerman's nosebleed, that injury is consistent with that, but that is not consistent with being beaten severely about the head by being punched dozens of times.

3. Martin Covered Zimmerman's Nose and Mouth: Standard autopsy procedures are to conduct a through external examination of the body and do not damage and other surface details. This was done. Zimmerman claims that Martin attacked him and the first thing he did was punch him in the face damaging his nose, which we know bled because of photographs at the scene. Zimmerman also claimed that Martin covered his mouth and nose with his hands during the struggle. However the autopsy report does not indicate there was any blood on Martin's hand. In addition a DNA analysis of samples from the hand returned none of Zimmerman's DNA (which would have been contained in the blood) and forensic examination of Martin's hoodie cuffs (both) returned negative results for Zimmerman's DNA.

4. Bullet Trajectory: See image below. Zimmerman described the struggle occurring in this type of configuration. Martin on top of and straddling Martin. Zimmerman's firearm was holstered on the right side, back of his body. Zimmerman said that Martin grabbed for the gun in the holster. First of all how would Martin have known the gun was there under Zimmerman's jacket. Secondly Zimmerman would have had to get his arm under Martin's leg. Finally, take a moment and close your eyes and think of the articulation of a persons shoulder, elbow, and wrist. Now, the autopsy report shows that the bullet travel was straight into Martins chest (in other words perpendicular to the chest and not at an angle either up/down or left/right). Pulling a weapon from a hip holstered weapon, the most natural movement would result in the weapons being placed against the attackers side shooting up. Having to manipulate the weapon between the bodies, lift it to be level with the chest, and then bending the wrists "down" (i.e. toward your own feet) is a very unnatural position for the arm.

(Credit to Who for the image)

5. Gun Shot Residue (GSR): When a weapon is discharge chemically laden smoke and partially burned gunpowder is ejected down the barrel and out through the ejection port (for semi-automatics). Now if Zimmerman was below Martin and their chests were in close proximity then discharging a firearm between then is going to provide a fairly close proximity of Zimmerman's cloths to the source of of GSR (in other words the fired gun). Forensic examination of Zimmerman's clothing showed no GSR on Zimmerman's jacket front or on the front of the sleeves. There was GSR on Zimmerman's hands. Not having GSR on the clothing indicates Zimmerman's arm was extended at the time the shot was fired, which means the his arm would have been extended through Martins chest.

6. Who Confronted Who: Zimmerman initially claimed that Martin jumped him (audio tapes) and said threatening things to him when he was on the ground, by the next morning in the video reenactment Martin approached Zimmerman and then then spoke to him and then attacked. However Zimmerman didn't know that night and during the next mornings reenactment that Martin was on the phone with his girlfriend. This is confirmed through phone records. It appears that the girlfriend will testify that she heard a male voice speaking to Martin first, a direct contradiction of both versions that Zimmerman claimed.

7. Location of Martins Body #1: During the audio tapes Zimmerman claimed Martin jumped him and knocked him to the ground on the east/west path, the next morning Zimmerman pointed out the location of where he said he and Martin first came together (which was at the "T" intersection of the sidewalk) as Zimmerman was walking back to his truck (after crossing to look for a street sign that wouldn't have been there) and that's how he and Martin came together. Zimmerman claimed he never went down the south path of the "T" sidewalk, that Martin knocked him to the ground at the "T" intersection, that Martin then jumped on top of him (which is were he remained for the struggle), Zimmerman shot Martin on top of him, with Martin now dead from a gunshot wound with a bullet through the heart and lung, Zimmerman describes rolling the body off and then getting on top of the body and spreading the hands out. The only problem is that Martin's body was 40-50 feet or so south of the intersection. A location inconsistent with Zimmerman's description of events.

8. Location of Martins Body #2:Zimmerman claimed that he shot Martin when he was bashing his head into the concrete, yet Martin’s body was not near the sidewalk. Martin's body was located 3-4 body lengths away from the sidewalk in the grassy area. A location inconsistent with Zimmerman's description of firing his weapon into Martin because Martin was beating his head into the concrete.

9. Zimmerman Parking At the Clubhouse: During the video reenactment, Zimmerman told police where to park at the clubhouse and indicated that was where he stopped the previous night. However internal video surveillance from the clubshouse shows other headlights driving by, but no headlights from Zimmerman parking like he described.​

>>>>

Yep. One lie after another. There is very little that is believeable in his story. He's a liar.

 

[Oldstyle]

So now we take Zimmerman's version with a grain of salt right? So we don't know if Martin jumped Zimmerman or Zimmerman jumped Martin, the only evidence we have is that was the way Zimmerman reported it right?





>>>>

You're really making the contention that the only evidence we have is George Zimmerman's testimony? Really?

Nope not in the least. Zimmerman hasn't "testified" yet, he has provided statements, but he may or may not decide to testify.



Nope not in the least. The injuries are there, no doubt. However evidence of losing a fight is not evidence of who is responsible for starting the fight.



Not in the least. The lack of injuries on Martin's hands is actually inconsistent with the story that Zimmerman told on the audio tapes and video reenactment.

(BTW - My compliments, most people inaccurately report injuries to Martin's knuckles (plural) you are one of the few that accurately describes it as an abrasion on a knuckle (singular).



On this one, yes absolutley. We've seen testimony over the last three days from audio and speech forensic experts that there is NOW WAY to identify who was yelling during the 3-seconds of screams that were recorded.

So ya, I'd ignore it, just as I would ignore his later identification that is was Martin screaming.




Nope not in the least. The witnesses are there, no doubt. However evidence of losing a fight is not evidence of who is responsible for starting the fight.

Or that the back of Zimmerman's jacket was wet and had grass on it when the Police first arrived on the scene?

Nope not in the least. The officers observation was there, no doubt. However evidence (or in this case an observation) of Zimmerman having a wet back is not evidence of who is responsible for starting the fight.

Is it just me, Watcher...or do you want me to ignore a lot?

Nope not in the least.

I also would like you not to ignore...

1. Street Name: Zimmerman claimed he followed Martin to use the pass through to the north side of two housing sections to find a street sign so he could give an address to the police because he didn't know what street he was on. A couple of things were that doesn't ring true. First, there are only 3 streets in the development (Twin Trees Lane, Retreat View Circle, and Long Oak Way). Zimmerman lived on Retreat View Circle which is the street he says he was going through to find the name of, the same street he lived on. Retreat view Circle is a street that loops around the whole complex, The other street is the one he drives into and out of every time he entered or left the development for the two years he lived there which is Twin Trees Lane which bisects the loop created by Retreat View Circle. Second, there are no street signs on houses, there are house numbers. The closest street sign which would tell him the name of Twin Trees Lane was back toward the clubhouse in the exact opposite direction that he headed. He lived there for two years and was the Captain of the Neighborhood Watch and didn't know the name of the main street running through the development and didn't know where to go to find a street sign (which are at intersections)? He was an adult and didn't know that street signs are not mounted in the darkened area behind houses?

2. Lack of Damage to Martins Hands: Zimmerman claimed that Martin punched him in the face over a dozen times. The autopsy report shows that there was only one small abrasion measuring 1/8 x 1/4 inch on one finger of the left hand. Someone pummeling someone else in the head (a boney structure) will likely have more offensive damage to their hands than one small abrasion. We know that Martin got at least one shot in because of Zimmerman's nosebleed, that injury is consistent with that, but that is not consistent with being beaten severely about the head by being punched dozens of times.

3. Martin Covered Zimmerman's Nose and Mouth: Standard autopsy procedures are to conduct a through external examination of the body and do not damage and other surface details. This was done. Zimmerman claims that Martin attacked him and the first thing he did was punch him in the face damaging his nose, which we know bled because of photographs at the scene. Zimmerman also claimed that Martin covered his mouth and nose with his hands during the struggle. However the autopsy report does not indicate there was any blood on Martin's hand. In addition a DNA analysis of samples from the hand returned none of Zimmerman's DNA (which would have been contained in the blood) and forensic examination of Martin's hoodie cuffs (both) returned negative results for Zimmerman's DNA.

4. Bullet Trajectory: See image below. Zimmerman described the struggle occurring in this type of configuration. Martin on top of and straddling Martin. Zimmerman's firearm was holstered on the right side, back of his body. Zimmerman said that Martin grabbed for the gun in the holster. First of all how would Martin have known the gun was there under Zimmerman's jacket. Secondly Zimmerman would have had to get his arm under Martin's leg. Finally, take a moment and close your eyes and think of the articulation of a persons shoulder, elbow, and wrist. Now, the autopsy report shows that the bullet travel was straight into Martins chest (in other words perpendicular to the chest and not at an angle either up/down or left/right). Pulling a weapon from a hip holstered weapon, the most natural movement would result in the weapons being placed against the attackers side shooting up. Having to manipulate the weapon between the bodies, lift it to be level with the chest, and then bending the wrists "down" (i.e. toward your own feet) is a very unnatural position for the arm.

(Credit to Who for the image)

5. Gun Shot Residue (GSR): When a weapon is discharge chemically laden smoke and partially burned gunpowder is ejected down the barrel and out through the ejection port (for semi-automatics). Now if Zimmerman was below Martin and their chests were in close proximity then discharging a firearm between then is going to provide a fairly close proximity of Zimmerman's cloths to the source of of GSR (in other words the fired gun). Forensic examination of Zimmerman's clothing showed no GSR on Zimmerman's jacket front or on the front of the sleeves. There was GSR on Zimmerman's hands. Not having GSR on the clothing indicates Zimmerman's arm was extended at the time the shot was fired, which means the his arm would have been extended through Martins chest.

6. Who Confronted Who: Zimmerman initially claimed that Martin jumped him (audio tapes) and said threatening things to him when he was on the ground, by the next morning in the video reenactment Martin approached Zimmerman and then then spoke to him and then attacked. However Zimmerman didn't know that night and during the next mornings reenactment that Martin was on the phone with his girlfriend. This is confirmed through phone records. It appears that the girlfriend will testify that she heard a male voice speaking to Martin first, a direct contradiction of both versions that Zimmerman claimed.

7. Location of Martins Body #1: During the audio tapes Zimmerman claimed Martin jumped him and knocked him to the ground on the east/west path, the next morning Zimmerman pointed out the location of where he said he and Martin first came together (which was at the "T" intersection of the sidewalk) as Zimmerman was walking back to his truck (after crossing to look for a street sign that wouldn't have been there) and that's how he and Martin came together. Zimmerman claimed he never went down the south path of the "T" sidewalk, that Martin knocked him to the ground at the "T" intersection, that Martin then jumped on top of him (which is were he remained for the struggle), Zimmerman shot Martin on top of him, with Martin now dead from a gunshot wound with a bullet through the heart and lung, Zimmerman describes rolling the body off and then getting on top of the body and spreading the hands out. The only problem is that Martin's body was 40-50 feet or so south of the intersection. A location inconsistent with Zimmerman's description of events.

8. Location of Martins Body #2:Zimmerman claimed that he shot Martin when he was bashing his head into the concrete, yet Martin’s body was not near the sidewalk. Martin's body was located 3-4 body lengths away from the sidewalk in the grassy area. A location inconsistent with Zimmerman's description of firing his weapon into Martin because Martin was beating his head into the concrete.

9. Zimmerman Parking At the Clubhouse: During the video reenactment, Zimmerman told police where to park at the clubhouse and indicated that was where he stopped the previous night. However internal video surveillance from the clubshouse shows other headlights driving by, but no headlights from Zimmerman parking like he described.​

>>>>

At what point did Zimmerman tell the police that Martin punched him over a dozen times? I've read the police report and Zimmerman states that Martin punched him in the nose which knocked him onto his back and once on the ground Martin "grabbed" his head, slamming it into the ground repeatedly. The injuries to Martin and Zimmerman are EXACTLY what you would expect from the actions that Zimmerman described.

As for the girlfriend's testimony? She has ZERO idea what's happening between the two of them other than what she's hearing. She made the statement that she heard someone push another person and from THAT she reaches the conclusion that it was Zimmerman pushing Martin. Would you like to take a crack at explaining how anyone could tell WHO pushed who from the "sound" of a push? Trust me, if I'm Zimmerman's attorney and she tries to make that claim I'm going to have a field day with that.

Zimmerman testified to the police that he tried to slip from underneath Martin as the teenager straddled him. I would assume from that statement that the struggle on the ground was not "static" and may very well have moved from one place to another.

 

[testarosa]

Photos from the Criminal Justice Center where the Zimmerman trial has started.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Well, to show just how fair it is, the judge just vetoed all the defense requests to show Martin's past actions which are germane to his character.

This case, if Zimmerman is found guilty of anything, will definitely go to appeal. And, he'll win.

In the interest of fairness then, in addition, do you think Zimmerman's past actions which are germane to his character should be presented by the prosecution. You know things like being arrested for felony assault, court directed anger management classes/counseling, termination of employment for violence, restraining order for violence?



>>>>

 

[testarosa]

Am I here or am I there? Where am I?

 

[WorldWatcher]

Am I here or am I there? Where am I?

Over there -->>



>>>>

 

[Snookie]

Two to three weeks for jury selection.

I remember the last time I had jury duty. It was a federal case of ttwo men murding a sailor.

The questionnaire asked what experience, if any, I had pertaining to the justice system. I wrote down that I never missed Law and Order and CSI Miami.

They looked aty me funny after that. Not selected.

 

[testarosa]

Am I here or am I there? Where am I?

Over there -->>



>>>>

As long as you're over here <<----, I'll be over there --->>