The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

RetiredGySgt

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Not people, they were the enemy who were trying to kill Americans.
Well, firstly, Japan had already surrendered before the first atomic bomb was dropped, the United States refused that surrender and dropped not one, but two nukes.

Secondly, those were civilians, not "enemies". They were random people, going about their own lives, no say in the war, no say in the surrender terms. These were cities, not military bases. 7000 innocent people were murdered by those who call themselves Government, and you're trying to justify it. What the Hell were they doing from across the ocean, in their own homes, to harm anyone on this plot of land?
Japan did NOT surrender, they offered a CEASEFIRE and return to 1941 start lines EXCEPT in China where they offered NOTHING.

Overtures to surrender were floated even before the Yalta Conference. The scumbag fdr ordered that they be ignored. As a result, many many more American servicemen died before his lackey could finally use their new toy to incinerate hundreds of thousands of civilians, as he had wanted more than anything.
I have read the intercepts from source documents which I have provided in links several times.....

You found one link to one document that you cannot understand in context. You have been provided with dozens and dozens of links to information informing your ignorant ass about the reality of the time, but you have ignored all of them because you stopped thinking long ago.
Wrong all you have EVER linked to is books by revisionist historians with OUT a single source document. I linked to actual SOURCE documents that clearly show that Japan NEVER offered to surrender. NEVER, Read it again NEVER. All the offered was a cease fire and return to 41 start lines and concessions in China. All you have are opiniona, I have actual SOURCE documents with the actual words detailing what was offered and what was NOT.
 

Unkotare

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Well, firstly, Japan had already surrendered before the first atomic bomb was dropped, the United States refused that surrender and dropped not one, but two nukes.

Secondly, those were civilians, not "enemies". They were random people, going about their own lives, no say in the war, no say in the surrender terms. These were cities, not military bases. 7000 innocent people were murdered by those who call themselves Government, and you're trying to justify it. What the Hell were they doing from across the ocean, in their own homes, to harm anyone on this plot of land?
Japan did NOT surrender, they offered a CEASEFIRE and return to 1941 start lines EXCEPT in China where they offered NOTHING.

Overtures to surrender were floated even before the Yalta Conference. The scumbag fdr ordered that they be ignored. As a result, many many more American servicemen died before his lackey could finally use their new toy to incinerate hundreds of thousands of civilians, as he had wanted more than anything.
I have read the intercepts from source documents which I have provided in links several times.....

You found one link to one document that you cannot understand in context. You have been provided with dozens and dozens of links to information informing your ignorant ass about the reality of the time, but you have ignored all of them because you stopped thinking long ago.
Wrong all you have EVER linked to is books by revisionist historians with OUT a single source document. I linked to actual SOURCE documents that clearly show that Japan NEVER offered to surrender. NEVER, Read it again NEVER. All the offered was a cease fire and return to 41 start lines and concessions in China. All you have are opiniona, I have actual SOURCE documents with the actual words detailing what was offered and what was NOT.
I understand you are well into your dotage, but you are just acting like senior citizen rain man with your repetition and ignoring piles of evidence. Go have some Jell-O.
 

RetiredGySgt

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Japan did NOT surrender, they offered a CEASEFIRE and return to 1941 start lines EXCEPT in China where they offered NOTHING.

Overtures to surrender were floated even before the Yalta Conference. The scumbag fdr ordered that they be ignored. As a result, many many more American servicemen died before his lackey could finally use their new toy to incinerate hundreds of thousands of civilians, as he had wanted more than anything.
I have read the intercepts from source documents which I have provided in links several times.....

You found one link to one document that you cannot understand in context. You have been provided with dozens and dozens of links to information informing your ignorant ass about the reality of the time, but you have ignored all of them because you stopped thinking long ago.
Wrong all you have EVER linked to is books by revisionist historians with OUT a single source document. I linked to actual SOURCE documents that clearly show that Japan NEVER offered to surrender. NEVER, Read it again NEVER. All the offered was a cease fire and return to 41 start lines and concessions in China. All you have are opiniona, I have actual SOURCE documents with the actual words detailing what was offered and what was NOT.
I understand you are well into your dotage, but you are just acting like senior citizen rain man with your repetition and ignoring piles of evidence. Go have some Jell-O.
Again reject SOURCE Documents, the ACTUAL offers demands and requests verbatim. What do you have? Opinions by revisionists that have no actual evidence to back their claims.
 

Unkotare

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Overtures to surrender were floated even before the Yalta Conference. The scumbag fdr ordered that they be ignored. As a result, many many more American servicemen died before his lackey could finally use their new toy to incinerate hundreds of thousands of civilians, as he had wanted more than anything.
I have read the intercepts from source documents which I have provided in links several times.....

You found one link to one document that you cannot understand in context. You have been provided with dozens and dozens of links to information informing your ignorant ass about the reality of the time, but you have ignored all of them because you stopped thinking long ago.
Wrong all you have EVER linked to is books by revisionist historians with OUT a single source document. I linked to actual SOURCE documents that clearly show that Japan NEVER offered to surrender. NEVER, Read it again NEVER. All the offered was a cease fire and return to 41 start lines and concessions in China. All you have are opiniona, I have actual SOURCE documents with the actual words detailing what was offered and what was NOT.
I understand you are well into your dotage, but you are just acting like senior citizen rain man with your repetition and ignoring piles of evidence. Go have some Jell-O.
Again reject SOURCE Documents, the ACTUAL offers demands and requests verbatim. What do you have? Opinions by revisionists that have no actual evidence to back their claims.
Are you a very good driver?
 

RetiredGySgt

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I have read the intercepts from source documents which I have provided in links several times.....

You found one link to one document that you cannot understand in context. You have been provided with dozens and dozens of links to information informing your ignorant ass about the reality of the time, but you have ignored all of them because you stopped thinking long ago.
Wrong all you have EVER linked to is books by revisionist historians with OUT a single source document. I linked to actual SOURCE documents that clearly show that Japan NEVER offered to surrender. NEVER, Read it again NEVER. All the offered was a cease fire and return to 41 start lines and concessions in China. All you have are opiniona, I have actual SOURCE documents with the actual words detailing what was offered and what was NOT.
I understand you are well into your dotage, but you are just acting like senior citizen rain man with your repetition and ignoring piles of evidence. Go have some Jell-O.
Again reject SOURCE Documents, the ACTUAL offers demands and requests verbatim. What do you have? Opinions by revisionists that have no actual evidence to back their claims.
Are you a very good driver?
Again for the slow, my source has the ACTUAL Offers, the actual discussions the official word from the Japanese Government on all occasions. What have you got? Opinions from people that were not even alive at the time.
 

JoeB131

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That wasn't panic Joe it was self defense...we placed our nation on a war footing....this is the same thing....we are in a war against an invisible enemy unleashed on to the world by a real enemy...China....things are going to change forever now...China will be essentially dead to us....so any company that refuses to leave China will be left behind by the American people....this includes Apple and Nike.....I am hearing rumbles of Nike returning their manufacturing to the United States...and open border liberals supporting us closing our borders.....yep some big changes are coming...
Okay, kind of off topic, so I'm not going to waste a lot of time on it.

After this is over, the big corporations, who are going to drop Trump like a bad habit, will be going back to dealing with China like none of this ever happened.

Yes, some of them will move factories from China to Vietnam, but that's because Chinese workers are too expensive to employ.
 

Unkotare

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That wasn't panic Joe it was self defense...we placed our nation on a war footing....this is the same thing....we are in a war against an invisible enemy unleashed on to the world by a real enemy...China....things are going to change forever now...China will be essentially dead to us....so any company that refuses to leave China will be left behind by the American people....this includes Apple and Nike.....I am hearing rumbles of Nike returning their manufacturing to the United States...and open border liberals supporting us closing our borders.....yep some big changes are coming...
Okay, kind of off topic, so I'm not going to waste a lot of time on it.

After this is over, the big corporations, who are going to drop Trump like a bad habit, will be going back to dealing with China like none of this ever happened.

Yes, some of them will move factories from China to Vietnam, but that's because Chinese workers are too expensive to employ.

Off topic trolling.
 

Unkotare

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You found one link to one document that you cannot understand in context. You have been provided with dozens and dozens of links to information informing your ignorant ass about the reality of the time, but you have ignored all of them because you stopped thinking long ago.
Wrong all you have EVER linked to is books by revisionist historians with OUT a single source document. I linked to actual SOURCE documents that clearly show that Japan NEVER offered to surrender. NEVER, Read it again NEVER. All the offered was a cease fire and return to 41 start lines and concessions in China. All you have are opiniona, I have actual SOURCE documents with the actual words detailing what was offered and what was NOT.
I understand you are well into your dotage, but you are just acting like senior citizen rain man with your repetition and ignoring piles of evidence. Go have some Jell-O.
Again reject SOURCE Documents, the ACTUAL offers demands and requests verbatim. What do you have? Opinions by revisionists that have no actual evidence to back their claims.
Are you a very good driver?
Again for the slow, my source has the ACTUAL Offers, the actual discussions the official word from the Japanese Government on all occasions. What have you got? Opinions from people that were not even alive at the time.

One. You found one document the translation of which you haven’t a prayer of checking personally and which you misunderstood in context and you haven’t stopped rain manning it ever since. Meanwhile, you have assiduously ignored mountains of historical evidence because you stopped thinking long ago.
 

DOTR

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If only you could place yourself back to December 8th 1941 will you be able to understand the prospective of that day.....and I'm sure no one in these 157 pages can do that....
That panic will make you do stupid things? We know that from 9/11 or Covid-19.
That wasn't panic Joe it was self defense...we placed our nation on a war footing....this is the same thing....we are in a war against an invisible enemy unleashed on to the world by a real enemy...China....things are going to change forever now...China will be essentially dead to us....so any company that refuses to leave China will be left behind by the American people....this includes Apple and Nike.....I am hearing rumbles of Nike returning their manufacturing to the United States...and open border liberals supporting us closing our borders.....yep some big changes are coming...
Trump was right all along.
 

RetiredGySgt

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You found one link to one document that you cannot understand in context. You have been provided with dozens and dozens of links to information informing your ignorant ass about the reality of the time, but you have ignored all of them because you stopped thinking long ago.
Wrong all you have EVER linked to is books by revisionist historians with OUT a single source document. I linked to actual SOURCE documents that clearly show that Japan NEVER offered to surrender. NEVER, Read it again NEVER. All the offered was a cease fire and return to 41 start lines and concessions in China. All you have are opiniona, I have actual SOURCE documents with the actual words detailing what was offered and what was NOT.
I understand you are well into your dotage, but you are just acting like senior citizen rain man with your repetition and ignoring piles of evidence. Go have some Jell-O.
Again reject SOURCE Documents, the ACTUAL offers demands and requests verbatim. What do you have? Opinions by revisionists that have no actual evidence to back their claims.
Are you a very good driver?
Again for the slow, my source has the ACTUAL Offers, the actual discussions the official word from the Japanese Government on all occasions. What have you got? Opinions from people that were not even alive at the time.

One. You found one document the translation of which you haven’t a prayer of checking personally and which you misunderstood in context and you haven’t stopped rain manning it ever since. Meanwhile, you have assiduously ignored mountains of historical evidence because you stopped thinking long ago.
You have NOT provided any historical evidence just claims by historians that golly gee the Japanese were gonna surrender HONEST gee whiz. The ACTUAL Documents transmitted from the Japanese Government which I cited and linked to CLEARLY show that all Japan Offered was a ceasefire, return to 41 start lines and NO concessions in China. I am not providing feel good revisionist history I am citing ACTUAL SOURCE DOCUMENTS from OUR Government.
 

Markle

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Once again for the needy whiners.

This is March 23, 2020

We won an unconditional surrender in 1945. The two nuclear devices proved to Japan that we would stop at nothing to win an unconditional surrender. The two nuclear devices saved millions of lives and trillions of dollars.

The two victories resulted in 70+ years of peace, prosperity and two of our strongest allies and no more world wars.

Given the incredible results, it was a bargain if we had, and had dropped two or four more nuclear bombs on Japan. Thank God it wasn't necessary.
 

JoeB131

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nce again for the needy whiners.

This is March 23, 2020

We won an unconditional surrender in 1945. The two nuclear devices proved to Japan that we would stop at nothing to win an unconditional surrender. The two nuclear devices saved millions of lives and trillions of dollars.
Actually, the Japanese didn't surrender because of the Bomb. They surrendered because the USSR entered the war in the Pacific and they knew they didn't stand a chance.
 

CHAZBUKOWSKI

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Pearl Harbor wasn’t necessary either.
True, because FDR should not have provoked Japan to attack us. In the months leading up to Pearl Harbor, the Japanese tried repeatedly to get FDR to lift the crippling sanctions he had imposed on Japan. They offered enormous concessions, including ignoring the Tripartite Treaty. But, FDR, who was ever willing to excuse Soviet atrocities and tyranny, refused to show even half as much flexibility toward anti-communist Japan. Instead of making Japan our ally and letting the Japanese carry out their plan to invade the Soviet Union, FDR, desperate to save the Soviet experiment, provoked Japan to war.
Completely ignoring the reason those sanctions were in place. Nice to see you advocate the murder and mass rape of entire cities.
 

theHawk

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Whatever labored, embarrassing arguments one can make for the nuking of Hiroshima cannot be made for the nuking of Nagasaki just three days later. From my article "Did We Really Need to Use the Atomic Bomb Against Japan?":

On August 9, 1945, just three days after we nuked Hiroshima, and before Japan’s leaders had sufficient time to process and respond to our nuclear attack on Hiroshima, we dropped an atomic bomb on the city of Nagasaki, which was home to Japan’s largest Christian population. The atomic bombing of Nagasaki was even more inexcusable than the nuking of Hiroshima. . . .​
On August 9, we nuked Nagasaki, just three days after Hiroshima, and hours after the Soviets began to maul the Japanese army in Manchuria,, and while Japan’s civilian leaders were understandably absorbed with trying to process what had happened to Hiroshima and with responding to the Soviet attack in Manchuria. Surely Truman and other high officials knew that three days was not enough time for Japan’s government to formulate a formal response to the unprecedented use of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and to the Soviet invasion in Manchuria. Even McGeorge Bundy, who helped Henry Stimson write his defense of the atomic bombing of Japan, acknowledged that Truman was too quick to nuke Nagasaki:​

"It is hard to see that much could have been lost if there had been more time between the two bombs. . . . Such a delay would have been relatively easy, and I think right." (https://miketgriffith.com/files/immoraluse.pdf)​
The Japanese were not even able to get a scientific team to Hiroshima until August 7, the day after the attack. Meanwhile, Japan's leaders were getting conflicting, fragmentary information about what had happened in Hiroshima. Some Army officials were telling the government that the bombing of Hiroshima was merely a very large conventional bombing raid, and they were suppressing information about the kinds of wounds that had been inflicted. There was no Internet back then, no fax machines, no Skype.

Surely it was obscene for us to nuke Nagasaki just three days, 72 hours, after we had nuked Hiroshima.
That’s because the stubborn Japanese leadership refused to acknowledge the truth, they were losing the war. To them the atomic bomb wasn’t much different than normal bombing raids. The Tokyo fire raids destroyed the city and killed more Japs than the atomic bombs ever did. Plus the US wanted to end the war quickly. An invasion of the main islands would had cost the lives of a million US soldiers easy. They finally got the message after the second bomb and surrendered. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the Japs that refused to surrender earlier.
 

Mac-7

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I agree
There was no need to attack a second city so soon. Japan should have been told we have dozens of more bombs and were prepared to use them.

While Hiroshima could be justified (did we need to demonstrate on such a populated target?). Nagasaki was not necessary
Hey. I've read books on the subject. Nagasaki was deemed necessary to convince the Japanese that we had more than one bomb. At the time, the Japanese military establishment was telling everyone that we only had one bomb and that Hiroshima was just something to remember like "Remember the Alamo". They were still dead-set on continuing the war. The primary reason is they couldn't stomach defeat. Defeat to them means suicide. So we had to drop another one to crush their hopes. The result was the end of a war and the end of the bloodshed.
Even after nagasaki there were officers in japan who wanted to continue the war
 

JoeB131

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Even after nagasaki there were officers in japan who wanted to continue the war
I'm sure there were. The bombs weren't the game-changer, the USSR entering the war was.

Japan found itself facing hundreds of battle-hardened divisions rolling into their main resource centers, and a front they had no troops to protect.
 

Mac-7

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Even after nagasaki there were officers in japan who wanted to continue the war
I'm sure there were. The bombs weren't the game-changer, the USSR entering the war was.

Japan found itself facing hundreds of battle-hardened divisions rolling into their main resource centers, and a front they had no troops to protect.
Sez you

japan didnt surrender when russia entered the bit after we dropped the bomb on them

though I’m sure having to fight russia hastened their decision
 

Markle

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nce again for the needy whiners.

This is March 23, 2020

We won an unconditional surrender in 1945. The two nuclear devices proved to Japan that we would stop at nothing to win an unconditional surrender. The two nuclear devices saved millions of lives and trillions of dollars.
Actually, the Japanese didn't surrender because of the Bomb. They surrendered because the USSR entered the war in the Pacific and they knew they didn't stand a chance.
 

Pumpkin Row

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You found one link to one document that you cannot understand in context. You have been provided with dozens and dozens of links to information informing your ignorant ass about the reality of the time, but you have ignored all of them because you stopped thinking long ago.
Wrong all you have EVER linked to is books by revisionist historians with OUT a single source document. I linked to actual SOURCE documents that clearly show that Japan NEVER offered to surrender. NEVER, Read it again NEVER. All the offered was a cease fire and return to 41 start lines and concessions in China. All you have are opiniona, I have actual SOURCE documents with the actual words detailing what was offered and what was NOT.
I understand you are well into your dotage, but you are just acting like senior citizen rain man with your repetition and ignoring piles of evidence. Go have some Jell-O.
Again reject SOURCE Documents, the ACTUAL offers demands and requests verbatim. What do you have? Opinions by revisionists that have no actual evidence to back their claims.
Are you a very good driver?
Again for the slow, my source has the ACTUAL Offers, the actual discussions the official word from the Japanese Government on all occasions. What have you got? Opinions from people that were not even alive at the time.

One. You found one document the translation of which you haven’t a prayer of checking personally and which you misunderstood in context and you haven’t stopped rain manning it ever since. Meanwhile, you have assiduously ignored mountains of historical evidence because you stopped thinking long ago.
You have NOT provided any historical evidence just claims by historians that golly gee the Japanese were gonna surrender HONEST gee whiz. The ACTUAL Documents transmitted from the Japanese Government which I cited and linked to CLEARLY show that all Japan Offered was a ceasefire, return to 41 start lines and NO concessions in China. I am not providing feel good revisionist history I am citing ACTUAL SOURCE DOCUMENTS from OUR Government.
I forgot I had commented here. Anyway, let's pretend for just a moment that they really didn't surrender, that the Japanese Government had no intention of ever surrendering in any way, shape, or form, just for the sake of the argument.

So, how many of the thousands of people incinerated by the two nukes were responsible for that decision, for taking "American" lives, or for anything involving that war besides being tax cattle? What's that, none? They were all or mostly civilians? Gosh, that sounds pretty messed up, it's like the Government just felt like committing mass murder.
 

RetiredGySgt

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You found one link to one document that you cannot understand in context. You have been provided with dozens and dozens of links to information informing your ignorant ass about the reality of the time, but you have ignored all of them because you stopped thinking long ago.
Wrong all you have EVER linked to is books by revisionist historians with OUT a single source document. I linked to actual SOURCE documents that clearly show that Japan NEVER offered to surrender. NEVER, Read it again NEVER. All the offered was a cease fire and return to 41 start lines and concessions in China. All you have are opiniona, I have actual SOURCE documents with the actual words detailing what was offered and what was NOT.
I understand you are well into your dotage, but you are just acting like senior citizen rain man with your repetition and ignoring piles of evidence. Go have some Jell-O.
Again reject SOURCE Documents, the ACTUAL offers demands and requests verbatim. What do you have? Opinions by revisionists that have no actual evidence to back their claims.
Are you a very good driver?
Again for the slow, my source has the ACTUAL Offers, the actual discussions the official word from the Japanese Government on all occasions. What have you got? Opinions from people that were not even alive at the time.

One. You found one document the translation of which you haven’t a prayer of checking personally and which you misunderstood in context and you haven’t stopped rain manning it ever since. Meanwhile, you have assiduously ignored mountains of historical evidence because you stopped thinking long ago.
You have NOT provided any historical evidence just claims by historians that golly gee the Japanese were gonna surrender HONEST gee whiz. The ACTUAL Documents transmitted from the Japanese Government which I cited and linked to CLEARLY show that all Japan Offered was a ceasefire, return to 41 start lines and NO concessions in China. I am not providing feel good revisionist history I am citing ACTUAL SOURCE DOCUMENTS from OUR Government.
I forgot I had commented here. Anyway, let's pretend for just a moment that they really didn't surrender, that the Japanese Government had no intention of ever surrendering in any way, shape, or form, just for the sake of the argument.

So, how many of the thousands of people incinerated by the two nukes were responsible for that decision, for taking "American" lives, or for anything involving that war besides being tax cattle? What's that, none? They were all or mostly civilians? Gosh, that sounds pretty messed up, it's like the Government just felt like committing mass murder.
Look you clueless idiot in WW2 it was total war all sides bombed all sides. As for never surrendering we were set to invade the main Islands in November with projections of a million casualties on just ONE island. Based on the actions in Saipan and Okinawa MILLIONS of civilians would have died by suicide or mass wave assaulting the beach heads as instructed by their Government. Those bombs actually saved Japanese lives.

You don't get to judge the actions of WW2 using today's morals and values, they were not in existence in 1945.
 

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