Zone1 The need for a Formal Debate forum?

[iamwhatiseem]

Nobody wants to debate anymore. We have the "Clean Debate Forum" already. We have "Zone 1" Ugh. It A "Formal Debate Forum" as you describe would be a lot of effort for very little if any benefit.

Won't know unless it is tried.
Again, the key, which is in none of the areas you point to. is only people who sign up for the discussion can post.
The trolls and rock throwers are weeded out quickly
In all honestly, I had the best discussions online in all of these years in those areas at the old forum. I have searched high and low for anything like it - and haven't found it in 12 years. They are either circle jerk forums, or no one is there.
We have large numbers here. I am betting there are more interested in actually discussing topics without the insults/trolling than you think

 

[ClaireH]

Nobody wants to debate anymore. We have the "Clean Debate Forum" already. We have "Zone 1" Ugh. It A "Formal Debate Forum" as you describe would be a lot of effort for very little if any benefit.

Maybe the CDZ needs a cleanup. Checking latest CDC threads- words like idiot and similar words found so the “clean” part is debatable

Additional rules for CDZ, hard things like not calling another poster an idiot, could work if you axe the posters who make things personal as a warfare tactic. That should be an easy request for only one zone, to keep it clean, but maybe not the case.

I have participated in personal retorts when other posters change my words or my intent of a post that is clear.

If personal insults aren’t allowed in one category, like CDZ, many well spoken posters would truly benefit and many of us would be interested to read those threads.

 

[Winston]

I too, have been disappointed with the open debate sub-forum portion of this forum. I had debated for four years in High School, and had been a judge for a junior debate tournament, when I was a senior, and once I was in college, was on the college debate team for a year.

Whenever a debate starts in the sub-forum, with clearly indicated participants, when other folks start posting in the thread? I never understand why the mods don't thread ban those folks for violating the rules.



SO if they can't, or won't even do the bare minimum that is SUPPOSED to be done in the open debate sub-forum, I am not sure how or why this would ever work.

I also was on the High School debate team for four years. What a blast. First year, when I posted the school on the chalkboard before the round began it was most often followed with howls of laughter from the opposing team.

Nobody wants to debate anymore. We have the "Clean Debate Forum" already. We have "Zone 1" Ugh. It A "Formal Debate Forum" as you describe would be a lot of effort for very little if any benefit.

Nobody wants to debate anymore because either they don't know how, or they know they can't win. A formal debate is highly structured. There is something called "the flow", where arguments are notated, and rebuttals are ascribed to them. Documentation, from appropriate and reliable sources, are sacrosanct. Significance, harm, inherency, they are part and parcel to the process. Debate is a lost art that can, and will, provide answers to many of our problems.

 

[MarathonMike]

Maybe the CDZ needs a cleanup. Checking latest CDC threads- words like idiot and similar words found so the “clean” part is debatable

Additional rules for CDZ, hard things like not calling another poster an idiot, could work if you axe the posters who make things personal as a warfare tactic. That should be easy an easy request for only one zone, to keep it clean, but maybe not the case.

I have participated in personal retorts when other posters change my words or my intent of a post that is clear.

If personal insults aren’t allowed in one category, like CDZ, many well spoken posters would truly benefit and many of us would be interested to read those threads.

On rare occasions, VERY rare I've had a discussion with someone who disagreed with me but we were able to sustain an exchange without either getting personal. It's nice when it happens but it seems to be a random spontaneous event rather than something that can be "orchestrated". Just my opinion.

 

[Winston]

I too, have been disappointed with the open debate sub-forum portion of this forum. I had debated for four years in High School, and had been a judge for a junior debate tournament, when I was a senior, and once I was in college, was on the college debate team for a year.

Whenever a debate starts in the sub-forum, with clearly indicated participants, when other folks start posting in the thread? I never understand why the mods don't thread ban those folks for violating the rules.



SO if they can't, or won't even do the bare minimum that is SUPPOSED to be done in the open debate sub-forum, I am not sure how or why this would ever work.

I see my post was transmitted through. But what I didn't say was that by my senior year, when I posted the school name, at minimum there were gasps of "Oh shit". Sometimes, the opposing team just looked at the judge and said "Forfeit". My two A little ass school kicked schools like Andover Academy and the Bronz Science Institute's ass. The county literally threw money at me, paid for travel expenses and hotels all over the country. I put more trophies in the trophy case than a decade of sports teams. And I developed a team that would continue to dominate for years after I left. I would get a case of beer, sit at the airport, and have them watch those big private schools with the five figure tuition land in their private jet and tell them, "We are going to kick their ass". And we did, time and time again. I mean when you go to a school that has "tractor days", and yet you dominate the national debate circuit against some of the finest schools in the country, well nothing is more satisfying.

 

[MarathonMike]

Nobody wants to debate anymore because either they don't know how, or they know they can't win.

I see my post was transmitted through. But what I didn't say was that by my senior year, when I posted the school name, at minimum there were gasps of "Oh shit". Sometimes, the opposing team just looked at the judge and said "Forfeit". My two A little ass school kicked schools like Andover Academy and the Bronz Science Institute's ass. The county literally threw money at me, paid for travel expenses and hotels all over the country. I put more trophies in the trophy case than a decade of sports teams. And I developed a team that would continue to dominate for years after I left. I would get a case of beer, sit at the airport, and have them watch those big private schools with the five figure tuition land in their private jet and tell them, "We are going to kick their ass". And we did, time and time again. I mean when you go to a school that has "tractor days", and yet you dominate the national debate circuit against some of the finest schools in the country, well nothing is more satisfying.

That's interesting. Do schools even have debate teams and true competitions like you describe anymore?

 

[MisterBeale]

That's interesting. Do schools even have debate teams and true competitions like you describe anymore?

National Speech & Debate Association

Connect. Support. Inspire.

www.speechanddebate.org

 

[MisterBeale]

Folks that debate generally preform better and are able to see both sides of any issue, in a critical way, easier than most. You are usually required to do both sides of an issue, regardless of your personal politics.

 

[Donald H]

There's no moderator participation after two pages.

I would say to just forget the idea at least until you get some moderator support.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

In the forum I originally came from (USPOL) from the mid 90s till it was purchased and went to hell... and now it is gone.
Anyway - it had a Formal Debate Forum.
It worked like this: (This was possible in the old VBulletin software, I would assume Xenforo can do this as well.)
1) A topic is offered. A member opens a thread with the topic, and what they want to discuss. At this point the thread cannot be posted in except by moderators. A moderator will either A) Approve the thread for discussion or B) Close it and report why the thread is not "worthy" of a formal debate
2) Once a thread is approved for discussion, it is "opened" for members to be able to request the ability to post in it. When they make that request, they agree to the understanding the formal debate area is highly moderated with increased penalties for violation. At this point the the thread is basically a "poll" with no ability to post. You "vote" to be able to be included in the discussion.
3) A moderator opens the thread and the only people able to post are those who have agreed to the rules. Those who have not, will see the "you do not have sufficient rights to post in this forum"
4) At USPOL we also appointed volunteer moderators who have the power of a moderator, but only in the formal debate forum. (Again this was possible with VBulletin, unsure of Xenforo can do this, surely it can)
5) The thread is opened for discussion.

The increased rules are of such
1) No flaming of any kind. No name calling of any kind
2) Posts must be on topic, and also must be original text, except for copied text that is clearly marked as such, but the author of the post must also post original opinions etc.
3) All posts that do not fit those rules will be deleted, with the poster either being warned or banned from the thread.

If I only identify as a poster, will you have a transposters' restroom available?

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

The benefit of USMB is volume. But that is also it's greatest problem.
You can open a legitimate thread, serious in it's topic... and by post 5 it has turned into yet another rock throwing contest. We have a LOT of people whose only interest is trolling and rock throwing. That is absolutely going to be a given in online forums of any real size.
Which is why, for those not wanting to just troll and throw rocks, we need a place that heavily prohibits it.
The key factor is only people who signed up for the discussion can post in that discussion.

I identify as a rock. So I'm filing a lawsuit against trolls for their hate speech.

 

[Winston]

That's interesting. Do schools even have debate teams and true competitions like you describe anymore?

Well, what I was describing was in the 70's. Back then competition was fierce, there were no "districts", and many teams traveled out of state for the big tournaments. Like college basketball, there were national rankings.

I found myself in the perfect position. First, as a freshman I got teamed up with a senior. He had came in contact with an older guy that had traveled the national circuit, by private jet just like I described. He "coached" us and we were soon dominating the local circuit. I was first affirmative and first negative, really just along for the ride, but I got strong experience.

At the time the school I attended was in the Guiness Book of World Records, longest losing streak for a high school football team. Over 60 loses, and when they saw a debate team bringing home trophies weekend after weekend they went full boat behind us. By my junior year I was pretty much a Monday through Wednesday student, Thursday was a travel day, nice hotels, meals paid for. Friday and Saturday were competition. By this point I was second affirmative or second negative, often flipping rebuttals. My partner was a Miss America runner-up, drop dead gorgeous and smart as a tack. The other team, and the judge, would be all entranced by her beauty and then I would step up and reek total destruction. We made our way into the national rankings.

The thing is, it wasn't just me. The knowledge that was given to me, the tactics I was taught, was passed on to others. A school often ridiculed for its "backwardness" was soon delivering fear to some of the finest schools in the country. The 1989 film "Listen to Me" is an appropriate example of what happened, although that involved the college circuit.

But yes, there is still a high school debate circuit. The National Forensics League still exists. But schools are hard pressed to finance those teams, and often times it is completely extracurricular. In my case, it was a real class, the only class you could take year after year and still get credit. And by my senior year our budget was bigger than any sports team. That could never happen today.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

They are either circle jerk forums, or no one is there.

Opposing circle jerks is homophobic. You'd never be allowed in Bi-den's Cabinet.

 

[MarathonMike]

Well, what I was describing was in the 70's. Back then competition was fierce, there were no "districts", and many teams traveled out of state for the big tournaments. Like college basketball, there were national rankings.

I found myself in the perfect position. First, as a freshman I got teamed up with a senior. He had came in contact with an older guy that had traveled the national circuit, by private jet just like I described. He "coached" us and we were soon dominating the local circuit. I was first affirmative and first negative, really just along for the ride, but I got strong experience.

At the time the school I attended was in the Guiness Book of World Records, longest losing streak for a high school football team. Over 60 loses, and when they saw a debate team bringing home trophies weekend after weekend they went full boat behind us. By my junior year I was pretty much a Monday through Wednesday student, Thursday was a travel day, nice hotels, meals paid for. Friday and Saturday were competition. By this point I was second affirmative or second negative, often flipping rebuttals. My partner was a Miss America runner-up, drop dead gorgeous and smart as a tack. The other team, and the judge, would be all entranced by her beauty and then I would step up and reek total destruction. We made our way into the national rankings.

The thing is, it wasn't just me. The knowledge that was given to me, the tactics I was taught, was passed on to others. A school often ridiculed for its "backwardness" was soon delivering fear to some of the finest schools in the country. The 1989 film "Listen to Me" is an appropriate example of what happened, although that involved the college circuit.

But yes, there is still a high school debate circuit. The National Forensics League still exists. But schools are hard pressed to finance those teams, and often times it is completely extracurricular. In my case, it was a real class, the only class you could take year after year and still get credit. And by my senior year our budget was bigger than any sports team. That could never happen today.

I had no idea! I went to a big high school in Maryland but I'm sure we didn't have a debate team or if we did they must have sucked. Sounds like they could make a movie about your school.

 

[Coyote]

In the forum I originally came from (USPOL) from the mid 90s till it was purchased and went to hell... and now it is gone.
Anyway - it had a Formal Debate Forum.
It worked like this: (This was possible in the old VBulletin software, I would assume Xenforo can do this as well.)
1) A topic is offered. A member opens a thread with the topic, and what they want to discuss. At this point the thread cannot be posted in except by moderators. A moderator will either A) Approve the thread for discussion or B) Close it and report why the thread is not "worthy" of a formal debate
2) Once a thread is approved for discussion, it is "opened" for members to be able to request the ability to post in it. When they make that request, they agree to the understanding the formal debate area is highly moderated with increased penalties for violation. At this point the the thread is basically a "poll" with no ability to post. You "vote" to be able to be included in the discussion.
3) A moderator opens the thread and the only people able to post are those who have agreed to the rules. Those who have not, will see the "you do not have sufficient rights to post in this forum"
4) At USPOL we also appointed volunteer moderators who have the power of a moderator, but only in the formal debate forum. (Again this was possible with VBulletin, unsure of Xenforo can do this, surely it can)
5) The thread is opened for discussion.

The increased rules are of such
1) No flaming of any kind. No name calling of any kind
2) Posts must be on topic, and also must be original text, except for copied text that is clearly marked as such, but the author of the post must also post original opinions etc.
3) All posts that do not fit those rules will be deleted, with the poster either being warned or banned from the thread.

I like the idea, but I know some of the suggestions can’t be implimented with the constraints we have as mods (some would require admin access which we don’t have), but it might be possible to create something like that. Debate Now is pretty much unused and would be a good experimental platform for this.

 

[Gracie]

Sounds like a whole lot of more work for the mods, Coyote . Do you really want to herd more cats?

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Sounds like a whole lot of more work for the mods, Coyote . Do you really want to herd more cats?

It would depend on if mods here have the ability to control who can, and who can't post to a thread specific level. That was available to mod access on VBulletin, but I don't know Xenforo software. So if you have a discussion of only 25 people say, and they all agreed to the rules prior to posting - you don't have that much to moderate.
I am positive there are a lot of folks here who would like to actually discuss a topic like an adult. But have given up on that idea due to being well outnumbered by troll posting and rock throwing.

 

[sparky]

Then what is the point?

controlling behavior is an exercise in futility

because it need to come from the poster

sorry but no amount of rules ,oversight, or moderation will ever be able to change this......

~S~

 

[iamwhatiseem]

controlling behavior is an exercise in futility

because it need to come from the poster

sorry but no amount of rules ,oversight, or moderation will ever be able to change this......

~S~

Simply not true.
I have been on multiple forums since the mid 90s.
Not all forums are like the "Wild West" as USMB is. In fact I would say most are not.

 

[Coyote]

It would depend on if mods here have the ability to control who can, and who can't post to a thread specific level. That was available to mod access on VBulletin, but I don't know Xenforo software. So if you have a discussion of only 25 people say, and they all agreed to the rules prior to posting - you don't have that much to moderate.
I am positive there are a lot of folks here who would like to actually discuss a topic like an adult. But have given up on that idea due to being well outnumbered by troll posting and rock throwing.

No we can’t on a thread or even forum level . It is possible on an Admin level which we aren’t.

flacaltenn what are your thoughts on the idea in the OP?