The Nanking Massacre and Iris Chang's Book The Rape of Nanking

[mikegriffith1]

FDR handed over tens of millions of Europeans to Communist tyranny. He played the key role in saving the second-worst tyranny in history from destruction. He paved the way for the worst mass murderer in human history to take over China. He refused to take any meaningful action to save Jews from the Nazi death camps--he even refused to use the existing immigration quotas to save thousands of Jews from the Nazis. And on and on we could go.

You could. No one really wanted more Jews in this country... that was the thing. Sure, FDR could have done a lot more.. except the REpublicans opposed him every step of the way and most Americans didn't want another war.

You are just making up stuff. Republicans had nothing to do with FDR's failure to use the existing immigration quotas to save tens of thousands of Jews. The Democrats held overwhelming majorities in the House and the Senate, so the Republicans were in no position to "oppose him every stop of the way." And FDR's refusal to help the Jews continued well after the war started, so you can't blame his inhumanity and immorality on the public's opposition to getting involved in the war.

And, yes, Hirohito was most certainly a nice guy. He did all he could within the constraints of the Japanese system of government to avoid war with the U.S. He tried to restrain the worst of the hardline generals in China. He intervened to spare some of the Doolittle Raid pilots from execution (he wanted them all spared, but could not bring this about). Before the war, militants staged a coup and killed some of Hirohito's advisers/friends, and when he, at great risk, took advantage of the opportunity to intervene to order a surrender in August 1945, militants tried to stage another coup, tried to hold him hostage, and tried to stop his surrender message from being broadcast.

Again, if he did that before the war started, I'd have given him some credit. Doing it after millions of your countrymen died in a war you were told from the get-go you couldn't win doesn't impress me. He was considered a freaking God in his culture. Too bad he wasn't a very good one.

Can you read? Did you not read what I said before you "responded" to it? Hirohito did plenty "before the war started" to avoid war with the U.S., and he also tried to restrain the insubordinate hardline generals in China before and after the war in China began.

You'd know these things if your PRC handlers would let you read some real scholarship on Hirohito.

I've already explained to you several times that there were huge differences between the Axis nations, just as there were between the Allied nations, but you insist on ignoring these facts and maintaining your ignorant assumption that all the Allied nations were good and all the Axis nations were bad.

All the Axis nations were bad. Most of the Allied nations were good. Maybe the USSR, but the USSR did most of the heavy lifting, so I cut them a lot of slack.

LOL! "Maybe" the USSR was bad?! Maybe?!

The USSR did "most of the heavy lifting"? Really? Good grief. You mean the Soviet rape of Eastern Europe? You means the thousands of Russians the Soviets murdered during the war? And, leaving aside the monstrous Soviet war crimes in Eastern Europe, what did they do to help in the Pacific War before August 1945? What did they do to help in North Africa? What did they do to help the Jewish resistance fighters who staged an armed revolt against the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto?

I'm guessing you are not aware that the Soviets were poised to invade Europe when Germany attacked them, right? German intelligence discovered that Stalin was about to launch an attack on Europe, and so the Germans launched a preemptive strike. You might start with former Soviet GRU officer Viktor Suvorov's international best-seller The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War II, published by the U.S. Naval Institute in 2013.

Phew! What a joke. A conservative president would have supported and encouraged the German resistance, instead of telling them to go jump in a lake ala FDR, and by so doing would have gotten Hitler killed by no later than November 1944 and saved millions of lives, including hundreds of thousands of Jewish lives.

The German "resistance" were all the Generals who did nothing to stop Hitler from rising to power to start with and were all for the war when Germany was winning.

Wrong. Clearly, you've done no reading on the German resistance or on Hitler's rise to power.

This is the typical Axis apologist crap, the west should have teamed up with Hitler to beat the bad old Commies... Because it wasn't like they weren't going to double cross you or anything. Oh wait, they were double crossing people all the time, that's how the war started.

Listen to your idiocy. Take a breath and consider what you just said. I'm talking about and defending patriotic, anti-Nazi Germans who wanted to kill Hitler, overthrow the Nazi regime, establish a pro-Western government, and hand back the territory the Nazis had taken. How on earth does that qualify as "Axis apologist crap"? What in the world does any of this have to do with apologizing for the Axis? Do you even think before you write your drivel?

Sheesh, where on earth did you get your alleged degree in history again? I take it your degree program did not include any classes on critical thinking or logic.

If the fallout from the Marco Polo Bridge Incident had been contained early on, as it could have been by sensible mediation by the American or British governments, Chiang Kaishek would not have attacked the Japanese in Shanghai to start the war; the Japanese never would have taken Shanghai or Nanking; the Japanese never would have gone into Indochina to interdict the flow of arms to the Nationalists (since there would have been no flow to interdict); the Japanese never would have even thought about moving on the Dutch East Indies to find a new supply of oil (since they would not have needed a new supply); etc., etc., etc.

The Japanese could have gotten tout of China where they didn't belong.

Talking with you is like trying to talk to a robot. You just keep repeating this line, even tough I've proved it false. For about the tenth time, the Japanese had internationally recognized treaty rights to be in China. They had the largest non-Chinese population in China. They had billions of dollars invested in China. They had made large loans to the Chinese, which the Chinese failed to pay back. They operated huge factories in China, factories that employed a large number of Chinese, by the way. Even the Lytton Commission admitted that the Japanese living in China suffered more than any other foreign population from the lack of law and order, the instability, the fighting between warlords and between the Nationalists and the warlords, etc., etc.

And, for about the tenth time as well, the Japanese offered to withdraw from 98% of China, if the Nationalists would stop trying to undermine their state in Manchuria, would stop their anti-Japanese boycotts, and would resume their energetic opposition to the Communists.

They could have also gotten out of Korea, because the Koreans would have been happy to see them leave.

You don't know that because you've done no serious research on Japanese colonial rule in Korea. You have no idea what you're talking about. I guarantee you that the Koreans in North Korea dearly wished the Japanese had not left once they got a taste of Communist tyranny. The millions of Korean lives that were lost during the Korean War would have been spared if Japan had not been forced to give up Korea.

I know you have zero interest in educating yourself about anything Japanese, but on the off chance that one day you grow up and decide to do some serious research on this issue, you might start with George Akita and Brandon Palmer's super book The Japanese Colonial Legacy in Korea, 1910–1945: A New Perspective (2015).

I just have this image of Axis Mikey telling a rape victim that she should lie back and enjoy it.

This is the kind of rude garbage that one would expect from a poorly raised teenager. It's worth remembering that you're the one who says the Communists got their "fair share" in Asia, who bashes the German resistance, who complains about people "demonizing" Joseph Stalin, and who says that Mao, the worst mass murderer in human history, brought prosperity and stability to China.

Perhaps you feel compelled to accuse others of being pro-Axis because of your numerous and repeated ugly comments about Jews and Israel.

 

[JoeB131]

You are just making up stuff. Republicans had nothing to do with FDR's failure to use the existing immigration quotas to save tens of thousands of Jews. The Democrats held overwhelming majorities in the House and the Senate, so the Republicans were in no position to "oppose him every stop of the way." And FDR's refusal to help the Jews continued well after the war started, so you can't blame his inhumanity and immorality on the public's opposition to getting involved in the war.

Uh, guy, no one was keen on bringing more people into the country in the 1930's when you had 25% unemployment... They just weren't.

Shit, look at what your Hero Trump. We have full employment, and Trump is making his bones on keeping people out.

Can you read? Did you not read what I said before you "responded" to it? Hirohito did plenty "before the war started" to avoid war with the U.S., and he also tried to restrain the insubordinate hardline generals in China before and after the war in China began.

Plenty would have been, "No War with the US, period." If anyone still refused, he should have ordered them to commit seppuku for defying their God-Emperor.

Listen to your idiocy. Take a breath and consider what you just said. I'm talking about and defending patriotic, anti-Nazi Germans who wanted to kill Hitler, overthrow the Nazi regime, establish a pro-Western government, and hand back the territory the Nazis had taken. How on earth does that qualify as "Axis apologist crap"? What in the world does any of this have to do with apologizing for the Axis? Do you even think before you write your drivel?

Again, all the German officers were totally FOR the war when it started. Heck, even the ringleader of the plot, General Beck, was only against the war because he thought Germany wasn't ready, and didn't have a lot of credibility when Germany was winning. Good thing Hitler killed these assholes, they should have been in the dock at Nuremburg right next to the Nazis.

Talking with you is like trying to talk to a robot. You just keep repeating this line, even tough I've proved it false. For about the tenth time, the Japanese had internationally recognized treaty rights to be in China. They had the largest non-Chinese population in China. They had billions of dollars invested in China. They had made large loans to the Chinese, which the Chinese failed to pay back.

Wow, so by your logic, banks should send people over to rape someone's family if they don't pay back loans? Really? I hope you aren't in banking.

Japan had no business in Japan, period, beyond being invited by China's legitimate government.

They were asked to leave. They should have left.

And, for about the tenth time as well, the Japanese offered to withdraw from 98% of China, if the Nationalists would stop trying to undermine their state in Manchuria, would stop their anti-Japanese boycotts, and would resume their energetic opposition to the Communists.

Uh, guy, they should have withdrawn from 100% of China, including Manchuria.

You don't know that because you've done no serious research on Japanese colonial rule in Korea. You have no idea what you're talking about. I guarantee you that the Koreans in North Korea dearly wished the Japanese had not left once they got a taste of Communist tyranny. The millions of Korean lives that were lost during the Korean War would have been spared if Japan had not been forced to give up Korea.

Uh, guy, as stated earlier, the Koreans want us to replace our new Ambassador because he's half Japanese and sports a Tojo Mustache. Now funny thing. The North Korean regime is awful. But as the old saying goes, "He might be a jerk, but he's OUR jerk." Just like as much as I fucking hate Trump with a passion that would blot out suns, if the Chinese invaded the US, I'd be against them.

This is the kind of rude garbage that one would expect from a poorly raised teenager. It's worth remembering that you're the one who says the Communists got their "fair share" in Asia, who bashes the German resistance, who complains about people "demonizing" Joseph Stalin, and who says that Mao, the worst mass murderer in human history, brought prosperity and stability to China.

Hey, guy, that's how history worked out.
Stalin and Mao are still loved in their countries.
Nobody has a particularly high opinion of the German Resistance, even getting Sissy Tom Cruise playing one.
And people across Asia STILL hate the Japanese for the shit they pulled in the war.

Perhaps you feel compelled to accuse others of being pro-Axis because of your numerous and repeated ugly comments about Jews and Israel.

Why? The Zionists have BECOME the Nazis... I have no more sympathy than I would have for a serial killer telling me about how his daddy abused him.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Another problem with the gigantic-massacre story is that a number of the alleged eyewitness accounts of the massacre contain contradictory and/or implausible claims. Justice Radhabinod Pal discussed one such witness in his famous IMTFE dissent, after summarizing the prosecution’s account of the massacre:

This is the Prosecution account of the Nanking rape. As I have already pointed out, there is some difficulty in accepting the account given in its entirety. There have been some exaggerations and perhaps some distortions. I have already noticed some such instances. There were certainly some overzealous witnesses whose evidence would require careful scrutiny.​

I may mention here one particular witness whose name was Chen Fupao. The statement of this witness is Exhibit 208. In this statement he claims to have been eye-witness of thirty-nine persons having been taken away from the refugee area on the 14th December and having been machine-gunned and killed near a little pond. This, according to the witness, happened in the daytime in the morning near the American Embassy. On the 16th he was taken by Japanese soldiers and again saw a lot of healthy young men being killed with bayonets. On the same day in the afternoon he was taken to Taiping Road and there saw three Japanese soldiers set fire to two buildings. He could even give the names of these Japanese soldiers.​

This seems to me a somewhat strange witness. The Japanese seem to have taken such a special fancy to him as to take him to various places to witness their various misdeeds and yet spare him unharmed. This witness, as I have said, states that on the very second day the Japanese were in Nanking they took thirty-nine persons from the refugee area. The witness is definite that it was the 14th of December when this took place. Of this group, thirty-seven were killed on that very day. Even Dr. Hsu Chuan-ying could not say that any such thing happened on the 14th of December. He speaks of the Japanese behavior of the 14th December in relation to the refugee camp, but does not say that anybody was taken away from the camp on that day. (p. 624, https://miketgriffith.com/files/justicepaldissent.pdf)​

This should raise a big red flag that we cannot uncritically and automatically accept all the statements of the alleged eyewitnesses.

As I read the testimony about the massacre that was given at the IMTFE, it seems to me that some of the witnesses were trying to outdo each other in providing lurid, shocking accounts. Some of the witnesses changed their stories while they were testifying and/or under cross-examination. Some of the witnesses could not be cross-examined because they did not testify—instead, the prosecution was allowed to submit signed and/or sworn statements made by them, most of which came with no audio recording of the interview that led to the statement.

 

[Unkotare]

Commie Joe knows nothing about History OR current political circumstances anywhere.

 

[JoeB131]

As I read the testimony about the massacre that was given at the IMTFE, it seems to me that some of the witnesses were trying to outdo each other in providing lurid, shocking accounts. Some of the witnesses changed their stories while they were testifying and/or under cross-examination. Some of the witnesses could not be cross-examined because they did not testify—instead, the prosecution was allowed to submit signed and/or sworn statements made by them, most of which came with no audio recording of the interview that led to the statement.

You really think they'd have hung the Japs less for killing only 40,000 people? Really? This is what you are going with, Axis Mikey?

Here's the real problem with both Nurenburg and the IMTFE. We didn't hang enough of the bastards. So a lot of Jap and Nazi War criminals got to live happy full lives after the war, some of them even wormed their way back into politics.

 

[mikegriffith1]

We have talked about the fact that Japan’s militarists often exercised a negative influence on Japan’s political decisions and foreign policy, and that they sometimes blocked Japan’s civilian leaders from implementing wise policies, but we have not talked about the fact that the Nationalists had their own militarists who likewise exerted a negative influence and opposed reasonable peace offers.

In his book Nanjing 1937: Battle for a Doomed City, Peter Harmsen discusses a revealing meeting that Chiang had with his top advisers on December 2, 1937, about a week before the Japanese army began its ground assault on Nanking. After losing Shanghai, and with Nanking threatened, Chiang felt compelled to reveal that Japan had offered peace terms several weeks earlier and that he was considering opening peace negotiations with the Japanese. Many of the people in the meeting had heard nothing about Japan’s peace overture. When Chiang explained the Japanese peace terms, many in the meeting were “startled” by their moderate nature. One of the generals wondered aloud why they had to be at war if these were the Japanese terms! Says Harmsen,

Chiang Kaishek met with his closest advisers, mostly generals. Vice Foreign Minister Xu briefed those present about the conditions for peace the Japanese had put forward nearly a month earlier. Many participants in the meeting were hearing them for the first time. They were startled to learn that Japan did not require cuts in Chinese armaments. “If these and these alone are the terms,” General Bai Chongxi exclaimed, “where should there be war?” (Kindle Edition, loc. 2267)​

Harmsen goes on to explain one of the major obstacles that Chiang created to making peace with Japan: Chiang “was not willing to sacrifice his recent friendship with the Soviet Union for the sake of achieving peace with Japan” (loc. 2283).

Many Nationalist leaders disagreed and wanted to accept Japan’s peace terms, which would have recognized the Nationalists as the rulers of the vast majority of China, but the peace faction was overruled by the militarist faction—Chiang usually ended up siding with the militarists.

Chiang’s decision to rely on the Soviets and to form an alliance with Mao’s Communists was one of the main reasons the Japanese government eventually declared that it would no longer recognize the Nationalist government. That is also the reason that subsequent Japanese peace offers included the demand that the Nationalists stop accepting Soviet aid, break their alliance with the Communists, and help them destroy the Communist threat in China.

But, tragically, FDR was determined to save the Soviet Union and was doing all he could to support the Soviet policy goals of blocking peace between the Nationalists and the Japanese and of provoking war between America and Japan. As I have documented earlier in this thread, FDR pressured Chiang not to make peace with Japan.

 

[JoeB131]

We have talked about the fact that Japan’s militarists often exercised a negative influence on Japan’s political decisions and foreign policy, and that they sometimes blocked Japan’s civilian leaders from implementing wise policies, but we have not talked about the fact that the Nationalists had their own militarists who likewise exerted a negative influence and opposed reasonable peace offers.

In his book Nanjing 1937: Battle for a Doomed City, Peter Harmsen discusses a revealing meeting that Chiang had with his top advisers on December 2, 1937, about a week before the Japanese army began its ground assault on Nanking. After losing Shanghai, and with Nanking threatened, Chiang felt compelled to reveal that Japan had offered peace terms several weeks earlier and that he was considering opening peace negotiations with the Japanese. Many of the people in the meeting had heard nothing about Japan’s peace overture. When Chiang explained the Japanese peace terms, many in the meeting were “startled” by their moderate nature. One of the generals wondered aloud why they had to be at war if these were the Japanese terms! Says Harmsen,

And this is why after the war, the Chinese threw Peanut the fuck out. Seriously, I imagine this conversation.

"Hey, they just beat us over the head with a baseball bat and took our money and credit cards, but they are willing to offer us terms."

"Really, what are the terms."

"If we suck their dick, they'll let us have our credit cards back!"

"Why, what a moderate nature they have. That sounds totally reasonable."

 

[mikegriffith1]

Commie Joe knows nothing about History OR current political circumstances anywhere.

Yes, it's rather astounding how he keeps defending Maoist China, attacking America, and making erroneous claims that prove he's read next to nothing on the subjects he ventures to discuss. Let's go over a few of his howlers:

* The Chinese Communists fought the Japanese as much as, or more than, the Nationalists did.

* Mao brought prosperity, stability, and foreign respect to China after he took over.

* It's unfair to "demonize" Joseph Stalin.

* It was the Republicans' fault that FDR turned away tens of thousands of Jewish refugees from Europe. (Never mind that the Democrats controlled the House and the Senate with large majorities.)

* Another reason that FDR turned away thousands of European Jewish refugees was that Americans did not want them, because nobody liked the Jews.

* At the time of the Nanking Massacre, the Japanese were committing atrocities "pretty much" everywhere in China. (Never mind that at that point they only controlled perhaps 20% of the country.)

* South Vietnam deserved to fall because it couldn't survive without our support.

* The people who fell under Communist tyranny in Asia actually "selected" communism. (Down here on planet Earth, most humans know that most of those people were either tricked or coerced into Communist rule, and that millions of them tried to flee that rule once they realized how horrible it was.)

* The Communists merely got "their fair share" in Asia after the war.

* Nanking's population was 500,000 . . . no, wait, it was 600,000, when the Japanese took the city, contrary to what every single primary source says about the size of the population at that time.

* The Communists won in China because the Nationalists were corrupt and because most of the people therefore sided with the Communists.

* The people in Red China were better off than the people in Free China. No, really, they were--at least the people who were left in Red China after the Maoists killed over 30 million of them, and not counting the million-plus people who were imprisoned in forced-labor camps. (And just never you mind that Free China's per capita economic growth dwarfed Red China's, that most Chinese POWs and refugees chose to go to Free China, and that Free China allowed freedom of religion, freedom of speech, the right of private property, freedom of travel, and never found it necessary to kill massive numbers of its citizens.)

* The German resistance leaders had no problem with Hitler until German forces began losing battles.

* FDR was right to refuse to help the German resistance, even though they wanted to kill Hitler, overthrow the Nazis, set up a pro-Allied government, and return all the territory Hitler had conquered. Why? Well, uh, because supposedly the resistance leaders all loved Hitler until Germany began losing battles.

* Hirohito was a militarist. (Just never you mind that some militarists tried to overthrow the government and in the process killed several of the emperor's friends and supporters in the government, and that the emperor had the leaders of the coup attempt executed.)

* The only thing that FDR knew from the 14-part message from Tokyo to the Japanese Embassy in DC was that Japan was breaking off negotiations. (Actually, FDR also knew from the instructions included with the message that the Japanese Embassy was ordered to destroy its cipher machine and all of its secret documents, and that the 14-part message was supposed to be presented at the same time as sunrise in Hawaii, a fact that several people recognized as indicating that Hawaii would be attacked. FDR also knew from the bomb-plot messages that the Japanese were seeking precise information about the berthing of ships in Pearl Harbor and were using a grid system to identify their location, a fact that many people recognized as a clear, telltale sign that an air raid was being contemplated--the Japanese did not seek this information about any other port that hosted U.S. ships).

* James McCallum, one of the Westerners in Nanking during the massacre, stayed in his house all the time and merely looked out his window, and therefore his account is worthless. (Actually, McCallum drove all over the city to take patients to and from the hospital and to help other people as well.)

* Lewis Smythe didn't care about getting accurate numbers when he did his survey in Nanking a few weeks after the massacre. (Never mind that Smythe was one of the Westerners who sent written protests to the Japanese Embassy about the vicious misconduct of some Japanese soldiers, and never mind that he used only Chinese assistants to do the survey.)

* It's no big deal that the Nationalists killed at least 400,000 Chinese by purposely breaching the Yellow River Dam in 1938 because those people "only" drowned.

* The Japanese should have handed over Manchuria to the Nationalists (or, presumably, to the Communists). (Never mind that the Nationalists had never controlled Manchuria--nor had the Communists--and that most Manchurians wanted independence from China, as even the Lytton Commission tacitly conceded. And never mind that the Japanese vastly improved Manchuria's economy, infrastructure, and standard of living, which attracted workers from all over Asia.)

 

[JoeB131]

* The Japanese should have handed over Manchuria to the Nationalists (or, presumably, to the Communists). (Never mind that the Nationalists had never controlled Manchuria--nor had the Communists--and that most Manchurians wanted independence from China, as even the Lytton Commission tacitly conceded. And never mind that the Japanese vastly improved Manchuria's economy, infrastructure, and standard of living, which attracted workers from all over Asia.)

Cocksucking Mikey Lies again. If the Manchurians wanted to be raped by Japan, they wouldn't have needed to have invaded.

* FDR was right to refuse to help the German resistance, even though they wanted to kill Hitler, overthrow the Nazis, set up a pro-Allied government, and return all the territory Hitler had conquered. Why? Well, uh, because supposedly the resistance leaders all loved Hitler until Germany began losing battles.

I'm sorry, who were these magical German Resistance fighters? Are we talking about the July 20 Plotters? They were all hard-core German militarists. Or are you talking about the White Rose rebellion, who were three stupid college kids who got guillotined because they weren't smart enough to realize the Nazis had already won?

Again, very good reason you don't side with an internal force. In 1918, the Socialists overthrew the Kaiser and ended WWI. The Allies then proceeded to screw Germany, and lo and behold, you had Hitler and Ludendorf promoting the "Stabbed in the Back" myth. Nope. No giving Germany a fucking out.. You defeat the cocksuckers and you let them KNOW they were defeated. You hang their fucking leaders who don't have the decency to kill themselves. This is what we did to Germany and Japan, and LO AND BEHOLD- the fuckers have been really, really well behaved ever since.

* Hirohito was a militarist. (Just never you mind that some militarists tried to overthrow the government and in the process killed several of the emperor's friends and supporters in the government, and that the emperor had the leaders of the coup attempt executed.)

Command responsibility. He was the fucking Emperor. He went along with the war up until the point it was pretty clear Japan was going to lose.

If he could have coup leaders executed, he could have had the militarists like Tojo executed. He didn't.

* It was the Republicans' fault that FDR turned away tens of thousands of Jewish refugees from Europe. (Never mind that the Democrats controlled the House and the Senate with large majorities.)

* Another reason that FDR turned away thousands of European Jewish refugees was that Americans did not want them, because nobody liked the Jews.

Hey, guy, look how Trump has managed to demonize Hispanics... Then remember than in the 1930's, unemployment was still at 25% and we were going to take in refugees from Europe because Hitler was mean to them? No one was going for that.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Here is an interesting 12-minute documentary on the Nanking Massacre posted on the Jesus and Japan Channel on YouTube. The documentary presents information that casts doubt on the large-massacre theory. I think the documentary errs in claiming there was no small-scale massacre either, although they don't define what they mean by "small scale." Anyway, the documentary is worth viewing. It presents a lot of information in just 12 minutes.

 

[JoeB131]

Here is an interesting 12-minute documentary on the Nanking Massacre posted on the Jesus and Japan Channel on YouTube. The documentary presents information that casts doubt on the large-massacre theory. I think the documentary errs in claiming there was no small-scale massacre either, although they don't define what they mean by "small scale." Anyway, the documentary is worth viewing. It presents a lot of information in just 12 minutes.

Hey, Axis Mikey, I think just for you, we should rename the "Rape of Nanking" as the "Really Bad Date of Nanking". Or maybe the "Inappropriate Touching of Nanking"

Just so we aren't offending your sensibilities.

I turned it off after 44 seconds of some Jap spewing conspiracy theories in mangled English.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Here is a short documentary, divided into two parts, that exposes the fake photographic evidence that has been used by those who advocate the large-massacre theory:





And here is a short video, produced by China Uncensored, on the prevalence of anti-Japanese propaganda in modern China:



It would be worthwhile at some point to discuss the Chinese Nationalist propaganda effort before and during the war. The Chinese Communists had an equally active propaganda arm. Recall that the Nationalists initially claimed that the Japanese were the ones who had breached the Yellow River Dam in 1938, which caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Chinese.

 

[JoeB131]

Here is a short documentary, divided into two parts, that exposes the fake photographic evidence that has been used by those who advocate the large-massacre theory:

YOu can go on all day, buddy.

The fact is, 300,000 people were slaughtered, 80,000 women were raped. The people responsible were hanged after the war, and totally had it coming.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Below is what the website Alpha History says about the Yellow River Atrocity. Alpha History is a site run by a group of Australian scholars who specialize in Chinese history. As you will quickly detect, it is harshly critical of Imperial Japan. Yet, even it admits the truth about the Yellow River Flood:

In June 1938 Jiang [Chiang Kaishek] ordered the dykes of the Yellow River dam to be blown, a desperate attempt to slow the advance of the Japanese invasion. While this ploy worked, it also caused a devastating flood that killed between 500,000 to one million Chinese civilians, rendered up to ten million homeless and ruined millions of acres of important farmland. The resulting food shortages, famine, and human suffering only contributed to rising peasant hatred of Jiang Jieshi [Chiang Kaishek] and the Nationalist regime. Other problems confronting Jiang and the Guomindang [Kuomintang] government [the Nationalist government] were widespread corruption, rising inflation and high desertion rates caused by poor treatment of Nationalist soldiers, most of whom were unwilling conscripts. (The Second Sino-Japanese War)​

 

[JoeB131]

Below is what the website Alpha History says about the Yellow River Atrocity. Alpha History is a site run by a group of Australian scholars who specialize in Chinese history. As you will quickly detect, it is harshly critical of Imperial Japan. Yet, even it admits the truth about the Yellow River Flood:

In June 1938 Jiang [Chiang Kaishek] ordered the dykes of the Yellow River dam to be blown, a desperate attempt to slow the advance of the Japanese invasion. While this ploy worked, it also caused a devastating flood that killed between 500,000 to one million Chinese civilians

What kind of idiot can't outrun rising water? Why do you keep coming back to this bit of idiocy?

There's a big difference between destroying infrastructure that might accidently lead to loss of life, and then going in on a campaign of rape and murder with the intent of terrorizing people into submission.

That's why they call it the "Rape of Nanking" and not the "Inappropriate Touching of Nanking".

 

[mikegriffith1]

Here is a short documentary, divided into two parts, that exposes the fake photographic evidence that has been used by those who advocate the large-massacre theory:

You can go on all day, buddy. The fact is, 300,000 people were slaughtered. . . .

No, the fact is that there were only about 200,000 people in Nanking when the Japanese took the city. The fact is that even staunchly anti-Japanese early accounts by Westerners in Nanking put the death toll at no more than 40,000 to 50,000, and that number included thousands of dead Chinese soldiers. The fact is that the only professional survey done weeks after the massacre determined a death toll that was only a small fraction of your mythical 300,000 figure. And the fact is that none of the photos in Chang's book even remotely establishes the wild 300,000 figure.

I just had to giggle when you said that you turned off one of the videos after less than 1 minute into it. I guess you just don't realize that such admissions prove that you are not to be taken seriously, that you have zero objectivity and zero interest in doing serious research.

 

[JoeB131]

No, the fact is that there were only about 200,000 people in Nanking when the Japanese took the city. The fact is that even staunchly anti-Japanese early accounts by Westerners in Nanking put the death toll at no more than 40,000 to 50,000, and that number included thousands of dead Chinese soldiers. The fact is that the only professional survey done weeks after the massacre determined a death toll that was only a small fraction of your mythical 300,000 figure. And the fact is that none of the photos in Chang's book even remotely establishes the wild 300,000 figure.

You mean at a time when photography was expensive, the couldn't photograph every body the Japs killed during the "Inappropriate Touching of Nanking"? (We are going to rename it that for you. We'll also rename the Holocaust the "Really disappointing summer camp", just to appeal to your fascist sensibilities.)

I just had to giggle when you said that you turned off one of the videos after less than 1 minute into it. I guess you just don't realize that such admissions prove that you are not to be taken seriously, that you have zero objectivity and zero interest in doing serious research.

No, I have ZERO objectivity towards Genocidal Fascist Maniacs. I'm just sorry that I wasn't around to shoot the bastards during WWII. My dad had that covered though.

He liberated a place called Nordhausen... but some Fascist Fuck like you goes out there and claims the Holocaust.. no excuse me, "The Really Disappointing Summer Camp" wasn't a thing, either.

 

[Unkotare]

... I'm just sorry that I wasn't around to shoot the bastards......

You're sorry you weren't around to piss yourself and hide under the bed? Yeah, the Greatest Generation really missed out on a hero like you. YOUR greatest achievement has been acting out as an uneducated racist on the internet. Way to go, champ.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Here is an interesting 12-minute documentary on the Nanking Massacre posted on the Jesus and Japan Channel on YouTube. The documentary presents information that casts doubt on the large-massacre theory. I think the documentary errs in claiming there was no small-scale massacre either, although they don't define what they mean by "small scale." Anyway, the documentary is worth viewing. It presents a lot of information in just 12 minutes.

I turned it off after 44 seconds of some Jap spewing conspiracy theories in mangled English.

LOL! Oh my goodness. Can you do anything else to show what a joke you are? What "conspiracy theories" does the narrator mention in the first 44 seconds? In the first 40 seconds, he explains the fact that the Sino-Japanese War began when the Nationalists launched a large-scale attack on the Japanese quarter in Shanghai, and that Japan then decided to occupy Nanking to try to get the Nationalists to stop fighting. I've documented these facts for you with numerous scholarly sources, including an admission by a Nationalist general that the Nationalists started the fighting and that the Japanese did not want to fight.

At 00:40, the narrator introduces the main topic while the video shows the caption "Is it true that the Japanese military committed the massacre there?"

Perhaps you're referring to a bit later on where the documentary discusses an account by a former Chinese Nationalist soldier in which he recounts that Chinese Nationalists were feeding Westerners in Nanking false stories about Japanese atrocities. Is this what you're talking about? I hope not, since the fact that the Nationalists spread all kinds of propaganda about the Japanese army is well established and thoroughly documented, not to mention that it was later admitted by a former Nationalist who worked in the Nationalist propaganda department. ​

Hey, Axis Mikey,

Your continued juvenile name-calling is duly noted, even though you know I was raised Jewish for part of my childhood, that I've lived in Israel, and that I am ardently pro-Israeli, and even though you ducked and dodged when I asked you to cite a single statement of mine to support your claim that I wish the Axis had won the war. I don't really care, and your name-calling doesn't bother me, since I can tell you're an immature, ignorant jerk, but I think it's worthwhile to pause every now and then to note your continued rudeness, crudeness, and dishonesty.

I think just for you, we should rename the "Rape of Nanking" as the "Really Bad Date of Nanking". Or maybe the "Inappropriate Touching of Nanking."

Except that I've already told you that I have no problem with the terms "Rape of Nanking" and "Nanking Massacre," given the evidence that about 12,000 civilians were killed and that hundreds, if not thousands, of rapes were committed. But, hey, don't let facts get in your way, much less integrity.

 

[JoeB131]

LOL! Oh my goodness. Can you do anything else to show what a joke you are? What "conspiracy theories" does the narrator mention in the first 44 seconds? In the first 40 seconds, he explains the fact that the Sino-Japanese War began when the Nationalists launched a large-scale attack on the Japanese quarter in Shanghai, and that Japan then decided to occupy Nanking to try to get the Nationalists to stop fighting. I

Mikey describing a rape.

"Well, she slapped his hand when he was touching her genitals under her panties, so he decided to pin her to the ground and stick it to her to get her to stop fighting."

One more time. JAPAN HAD NO BUSINESS BEING IN CHINA AT ALL. If China asked them to leave, they SHOULD HAVE LEFT. That's what you do when you are a guest in someone else's country.

Your continued juvenile name-calling is duly noted, even though you know I was raised Jewish for part of my childhood,

But then you converted to Mormonism... so it didn't take. Seriously, how bad was your religious education that someone could come to you with, "Well, there was this guy Joseph Smith, and he had these magic plates that no one else saw, that he magically translated at the bottom of his hat... and told a story of Hebrews in America!"

Never mind, please don't answer. I've dealt with enough religious crazy for one day.

but I think it's worthwhile to pause every now and then to note your continued rudeness, crudeness, and dishonesty.

Well, if you werent' a Nazi fuck making excuses for rape and genocide and religious asshattery, I wouldn't be so rude to you.

Except that I've already told you that I have no problem with the terms "Rape of Nanking" and "Nanking Massacre," given the evidence that about 12,000 civilians were killed and that hundreds, if not thousands, of rapes were committed. But, hey, don't let facts get in your way, much less integrity.

Naw, you just try to downplay it by saying, "Well, it wasn't so bad, it was only 10s of thousands of dead, and only hundreds of Rapes, and that made it okay, somehow. Because Peanut blew up a damn and some people didn't get the fuck out of the way."