The Laws of Nature existed before space and time

[expat_panama]

... don't believe it of you don't want to. No skin off my teeth.

... NOBODY agrees with ANYTHING you say...

Fair is fair, there's one point ding's quite correctly been inferring w/o actually saying it in words (iirc), and it's the contradiction that shows up as Cosmology's favorite pastime:

1. Saying there's no "before" when the "after" was the big bang, and this means it's dumb to offer conjecture about the nature of things during that non-existant "before". Then---
   
2. Proceeding to pick favorites of all the many kinds of possibilities --maybe their'd been a really really big black hole in some nearby universe that pooped everything into ours --maybe there's a constant flow of an infinite number of universes all forming at random...

What Happened Before the Big Bang - Table of Contents
What Happened Before the Big Bang? The New Philosophy of Cosmology
Will we ever… know what happened before the Big Bang?
Before the Big Bang?
What happened before the Big Bang? | The McGill Tribune
http://gizmodo.com/what-was-our-universe-like-before-the-big-bang-1791889926
What Happened Before the Big Bang?​

So whatever we decide to say about Ding is going to have to begin with the fact that he's in very good company.

It may be because while nothing of course can precede the BB in time, there's still the possibility that something (like natural laws) can precede the BB logically. Example: "where there's smoke there's fire". The smoke did not have to happen before the fire in time, but the recognition of fire was preceded logically by the existence of the smoke.

 

[BreezeWood]

It may be because while nothing of course can precede the BB in time ...

that would not be true if the BB were a loop where the time of this universe may have begun in an entirely unrelated event as a hybrid energy / matter transfer of an insignificant grain of matter that resulted in a self replicating cosmology that continuously grew in size.

 

[edthecynic]

The net energy of the universe is zero

The net entropy of the universe is zero.

 

[edthecynic]

we know there was a beginning to the cycles because the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics tells us that the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same.

You stuck your foot in your mouth again.

 

[edthecynic]

We can only think about something preceding some event if time moves.

Exactly, in physics time exists ONLY in terms of motion.

 

[edthecynic]

You can't have quantum fluctuations with having laws governing quantum mechanics.

Of course there are no LAWS of quantum mechanics yet, only working theories (plural), because we do not yet have a quantum theory of gravity!!!

 

[ding]

The net entropy of the universe is zero.

You stuck your foot in your mouth again.

Exactly, in physics time exists ONLY in terms of motion.

Of course there are no LAWS of quantum mechanics yet, only working theories (plural), because we do not yet have a quantum theory of gravity!!!

You are arguing with Alan Guth and Alexander Vilenkin. Not me.

 

[edthecynic]

The net entropy of the universe is zero.

You stuck your foot in your mouth again.

Exactly, in physics time exists ONLY in terms of motion.

Of course there are no LAWS of quantum mechanics yet, only working theories (plural), because we do not yet have a quantum theory of gravity!!!

You are arguing with Alan Guth and Alexander Vilenkin. Not me.

Fallacy of appeal to authority
You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true.

 

[ding]

The net entropy of the universe is zero.

You stuck your foot in your mouth again.

Exactly, in physics time exists ONLY in terms of motion.

Of course there are no LAWS of quantum mechanics yet, only working theories (plural), because we do not yet have a quantum theory of gravity!!!

You are arguing with Alan Guth and Alexander Vilenkin. Not me.

Fallacy of appeal to authority
You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true.

If you reject knowledge on the authority of others then you will have to go around life knowing next to nothing as almost everything you know has been accepted on the authority of someone else.

 

[edthecynic]

The net entropy of the universe is zero.

You stuck your foot in your mouth again.

Exactly, in physics time exists ONLY in terms of motion.

Of course there are no LAWS of quantum mechanics yet, only working theories (plural), because we do not yet have a quantum theory of gravity!!!

You are arguing with Alan Guth and Alexander Vilenkin. Not me.

Fallacy of appeal to authority
You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true.

If you reject knowledge on the authority of others then you will have to go around life knowing next to nothing as almost everything you know has been accepted on the authority of someone else.

You have no authority or credibility.
Just because you name drop, does not mean they agree with YOU!

 

[expat_panama]

It may be because while nothing of course can precede the BB in time ...

...that would not be true if the BB were a loop where the time of this universe may have begun in an entirely unrelated event as a hybrid energy...

Imagining things w/o any evidence is fun say, while waiting for a bus. In the sciences we really need to stick w/ what we can see and know. Just the same, if you ever do come across evidence of BB's looping pse let me know as so far all I've only been able to so see is the one we've had.

 

[ding]

The net entropy of the universe is zero.

You stuck your foot in your mouth again.

Exactly, in physics time exists ONLY in terms of motion.

Of course there are no LAWS of quantum mechanics yet, only working theories (plural), because we do not yet have a quantum theory of gravity!!!

You are arguing with Alan Guth and Alexander Vilenkin. Not me.

Fallacy of appeal to authority
You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true.

If you reject knowledge on the authority of others then you will have to go around life knowing next to nothing as almost everything you know has been accepted on the authority of someone else.

You have no authority or credibility.
Just because you name drop, does not mean they agree with YOU!

You either did not understand what I wrote or you do not understand the concept of accepting knowledge on authority. I am not the authority. Guth and Vilenken are the authorities.

 

[expat_panama]

we know there was a beginning to the cycles because the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics tells us that the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same.

You stuck your foot in your mouth again.

No he didn't. This is what we're talking about:

The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of any isolated system always increases.

The Three Laws of Thermodynamics ​

iow:

You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases).

What is a simple defintion of the laws of thermodynamics?​

The first law's the conservation of energy and the 3rd says that there is no conservation of energy as the temp of the universe continuously falls as the universe's total heat kinetic energy magically disappears. Yeah I know it's 'science', but I've never had much respect for thermodynamics. Sure, it works for designing HVAC systems but for cosmology? What a crock.

mho

 

[BreezeWood]

It may be because while nothing of course can precede the BB in time ...

...that would not be true if the BB were a loop where the time of this universe may have begun in an entirely unrelated event as a hybrid energy...

Imagining things w/o any evidence is fun say, while waiting for a bus. In the sciences we really need to stick w/ what we can see and know. Just the same, if you ever do come across evidence of BB's looping pse let me know as so far all I've only been able to so see is the one we've had.

.

Imagining things w/o any evidence is fun say, while waiting for a bus. In the sciences we really need to stick w/ what we can see and know. Just the same, if you ever do come across evidence of BB's looping pse let me know as so far all I've only been able to so see is the one we've had.

expat: It may be because while nothing of course can precede the BB in time ...

of course - is a contradiction to the various theories that do exist and excludes any from being made, are you negatively religious ...

you are disingenuous by your own dialogue assuming your own illusion that Singularity pooped into existence and began time with a cataclysmic expulsion with no prior history to cause the event to occur. at least mine would only require a simple trajectory analysis of the matter in motion, if angular the universes matter in mass and at the same time in a vacuum will eventually return to its origin.

what is your objective by the way ... The Laws of Nature existed before space and time - is not exactly drawn from a text book.

 

[edthecynic]

we know there was a beginning to the cycles because the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics tells us that the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same.

You stuck your foot in your mouth again.

No he didn't. This is what we're talking about:

The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of any isolated system always increases.

The Three Laws of Thermodynamics ​

iow:

You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases).

What is a simple defintion of the laws of thermodynamics?​

The first law's the conservation of energy and the 3rd says that there is no conservation of energy as the temp of the universe continuously falls as the universe's total heat kinetic energy magically disappears. Yeah I know it's 'science', but I've never had much respect for thermodynamics. Sure, it works for designing HVAC systems but for cosmology? What a crock.

mho

Entropy does NOT always increase. The actual scientific SLoT says entropy NEVER DECREASES, not always increases. Entropy can equal zero. Also heat and kinetic energy are two DIFFERENT forms of energy, the third is potential energy.

 

[BreezeWood]

.

iow:
You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases).

just on face value the above would prevent the fruition of Singularity from ever happening - there must be a cause to keep entropy from occurring in certain conditions ... for anything to accomplish a state of Purity.

what is the entropy of an element ...

 

[ding]

we know there was a beginning to the cycles because the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics tells us that the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same.

You stuck your foot in your mouth again.

No he didn't. This is what we're talking about:

The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of any isolated system always increases.

The Three Laws of Thermodynamics ​

iow:

You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases).

What is a simple defintion of the laws of thermodynamics?​

The first law's the conservation of energy and the 3rd says that there is no conservation of energy as the temp of the universe continuously falls as the universe's total heat kinetic energy magically disappears. Yeah I know it's 'science', but I've never had much respect for thermodynamics. Sure, it works for designing HVAC systems but for cosmology? What a crock.

mho

Entropy does NOT always increase. The actual scientific SLoT says entropy NEVER DECREASES, not always increases. Entropy can equal zero. Also heat and kinetic energy are two DIFFERENT forms of energy, the third is potential energy.

Do you know when the entropy last equaled zero?

 

[ding]

we know there was a beginning to the cycles because the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics tells us that the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same.

You stuck your foot in your mouth again.

No he didn't. This is what we're talking about:

The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of any isolated system always increases.

The Three Laws of Thermodynamics ​

iow:

You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases).

What is a simple defintion of the laws of thermodynamics?​

The first law's the conservation of energy and the 3rd says that there is no conservation of energy as the temp of the universe continuously falls as the universe's total heat kinetic energy magically disappears. Yeah I know it's 'science', but I've never had much respect for thermodynamics. Sure, it works for designing HVAC systems but for cosmology? What a crock.

mho

Good luck with that. The stupid is strong in this one.

 

[expat_panama]

...if angular the universes matter in mass and at the same time in a vacuum will eventually return to its origin...

...the universe is an open system, it must have had a beginning because if we follow it backwards in time, then any object in the universe must come to the boundary of space time.

Let's all please get on the same page here w/ "time" and the BB. We think of time as a continuum w/ each point in time having others before and after, but these days most geeks say that the time began at the BB so at that instant there was a present, and future, but no past. Not everyone agrees but those guys are in a different school of thot and our convo here will not make sense unless we announce if we're not together on this.

...what is your objective by the way ... The Laws of Nature existed before space and time...

We can talk about natural law 'before' the BB if we're clear that we mean the laws were followed by reason thru a BB and not on a timeline. My take is that there are many natural laws that obviously do not fit here, one being the law of relativity given that the beginning inflationary epoch involved FTL travel of everything. As far as I can see the conservation of energy can't apply either if it means total energy can't disappear, and then turn around and say the entire total heat of the system of the universe disappears as aggregate temp nears zero.

Personally, I'd argue that a universal law that could qualify is the assumption that Right is preferred to Wrong and the Good is better than the Evil. Those laws can follow through intuitive reasoning where the others (imho) don't.

 

[edthecynic]

we know there was a beginning to the cycles because the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics tells us that the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same.

You stuck your foot in your mouth again.

No he didn't. This is what we're talking about:

The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of any isolated system always increases.

The Three Laws of Thermodynamics ​

iow:

You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases).

What is a simple defintion of the laws of thermodynamics?​

The first law's the conservation of energy and the 3rd says that there is no conservation of energy as the temp of the universe continuously falls as the universe's total heat kinetic energy magically disappears. Yeah I know it's 'science', but I've never had much respect for thermodynamics. Sure, it works for designing HVAC systems but for cosmology? What a crock.

mho

Entropy does NOT always increase. The actual scientific SLoT says entropy NEVER DECREASES, not always increases. Entropy can equal zero. Also heat and kinetic energy are two DIFFERENT forms of energy, the third is potential energy.

Do you know when the entropy last equaled zero?

Today.
If entropy could not equal zero, no matter could exist.
Does matter exist today???