Zone1 The "Lake of Fire" (Hell) is temporary, punitive, purifying, & restorative

[SweetSue92]

Thanks. I also looked it up.

Why did Jesus want his followers to share aloud the contents of Revelation if his message was only intended for those particular churches?

I believe the last words of "grace to all" mean exactly that, to ALL. Jesus didn't specify his church or believers but ALL.

The letter can be read by all but was addressed to only the churches.

What is the meaning of grace?

 

[K9Buck]

The letter can be read by all but was addressed to only the churches.

What is the meaning of grace?

From Google:

grace, in Christian theology, the spontaneous, unmerited gift of the divine favour in the salvation of sinners, and the divine influence operating in individuals for their regeneration and sanctification

 

[K9Buck]

Speaking of "grace".

Tituss 2:11 esv
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

SweetSue92

What does "bringing salvation for all people" mean?

 

[SweetSue92]

From Google:

grace, in Christian theology, the spontaneous, unmerited gift of the divine favour in the salvation of sinners, and the divine influence operating in individuals for their regeneration and sanctification

So in this life, God gives "grace to all", per your understanding, but it doesn't take? God's grace is ineffective? or what?

 

[SweetSue92]

SweetSue92

What does "bringing salvation for all people" mean?

God's grace is always effective, like His promises. When applied, it WILL bring salvation in THIS life, not in Hell...for pity's sake.

But there is common grace--that's another topic.

 

[K9Buck]

WILL bring salvation in THIS life

That's not in the verse.

 

[K9Buck]

So in this life, God gives "grace to all", per your understanding, but it doesn't take? God's grace is ineffective? or what?

People are damned but it's not forever. God extends his grace to ALL - eventually.

 

[K9Buck]

SweetSue92

Do you believe this translation is spot-on?

Matthew 16:18 esv
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[Meriweather]

Mathew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

This raises an interesting question: If 'eternal' punishment has an end and can come to an end, then wouldn't the same hold true for 'eternal' life? Otherwise, why use the same word?

 

[SweetSue92]

This raises an interesting question: If 'eternal' punishment has an end and can come to an end, then wouldn't the same hold true for 'eternal' life? Otherwise, why use the same word?

I am not saying eternal punishment comes to an end.

 

[SweetSue92]

SweetSue92

Do you believe this translation is spot-on?

Matthew 16:18 esv
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

What word are you trying to catch me on?

 

[SweetSue92]

People are damned but it's not forever. God extends his grace to ALL - eventually.

So God overrides the will of Satanists and drags them into Heaven, to worship Him against what was their will?

huh. So odd.

 

[Hawkins]

The Greek word aiónios is mistranslated in some instances into "forever" or "everlasting" or into "eternity". My understanding is that it can mean forever but oftentimes means for an age or for a time.

I like the English Standard Version (esv) Bible for its ease of reading but I have learned to double-check some verses with Young's Literal Translation (ylt) Bible (created in 1898) as it more accurately translates that word.

Here are some examples of verses translated by the esv vs. te ylt editions.


Mathew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Mathew 25:46 YLT
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during

John 5:24 ESV​

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 5:24​

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Young's Literal Translation​

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24 `Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.

2 Thessalonians 1:9​

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English Standard Version​

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9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from[a] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

2 Thessalonians 1:9​

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Young's Literal Translation​

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9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

Moot, Greek word is meaningless in a sense that it's just a chosen language to write the NT Bible as back then it's the international language like today's Enlgish. In the Jewish and Pharisaic concept, hell is eternal especially when the Lake of Fire is referred to.

Just as how Josephus the Pharisee tried to explain what 'hell' is to the Greeks,
Now as to Hades, ...that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness... In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, ...when the unjust, ...shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment......

 

[JustAGuy1]

People are damned but it's not forever. God extends his grace to ALL - eventually.

Not true. I wish it were but it isn't.

 

[Meriweather]

I am not saying eternal punishment comes to an end.

Exactly! That has been very clear. I am merely supporting your understanding of the word 'eternal'. If it is being claimed that 'eternal' doesn't really mean without end when it come to punishment, isn't it fair to say 'eternal' doesn't really mean without end when it comes to eternal life? 'Eternal' cannot very well mean it is only temporary when it comes to punishment, but 'eternal' means it is without end when talking about life with God. Eternal means Eternal in both or in neither.

 

[SweetSue92]

Exactly! That has been very clear. I am merely supporting your understanding of the word 'eternal'. If it is being claimed that 'eternal' doesn't really mean without end when it come to punishment, isn't it fair to say 'eternal' doesn't really mean without end when it comes to eternal life? 'Eternal' cannot very well mean it is only temporary when it comes to punishment, but 'eternal' means it is without end when talking about life with God. Eternal means Eternal in both or in neither.

Oh I see. Yes, I agree. "You can't have one without the other" type of thing. Agree.

 

[SweetSue92]

Not true. I wish it were but it isn't.

And I would add (and I agree) that it can't be true due to God's Holiness. He can't do anything about His Holiness. He just IS. So being Holy, He cannot accept in His presence any stain of sin.

I think people don't begin to grasp that. And if you don't, you can't understand why He won't just accept sin/sinners--it just seems "mean".

 

[K9Buck]

shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment......

Wrong. The belief that God punishes his creation forever is ridiculously absurd. Except for that mistranslation of aion into "eternity" there is no other Biblical support and, in fact, there is a mountain of Biblical support that says otherwise.

 

[K9Buck]

What word are you trying to catch me on?

I'm not trying to win an argument with you. My point is, this esv translation is accurate, right?

 

[ding]

Wrong. The belief that God punishes his creation forever is ridiculously absurd. Except for that mistranslation of aion into "eternity" there is no other Biblical support and, in fact, there is a mountain of Biblical support that says otherwise.

How is it punishment if someone chooses separation from God?