The Insurance Mandate Shell Game

[g5000]

You actually have more negotiating power on your own. You get to decide the exact kind of policy you want. And if you are allowed to buy insurance from ANY company in the country, then they have to compete against each other for your business.

Just like they do for your auto, home, and life insurance.

You do not have that freedom with EPHI. And now your employer's negotiation position is greatly weakened, too. The Left will demand more and more things be included in the mandated coverage.

We're all screwed.

 

[VaYank5150]

My EPHI has been basically flat over the past three years.

As far as you know. Perhaps your share has not changed much, but this is not true for most Americans.

And how much has your employer's cost share gone up? You probably have no way of knowing, but I would bet it has nearly doubled in the past ten years.

With a federal requirement for employers to buy insurance, they will be over a barrel. Insurance companies will have some leverage since they know a company HAS to buy insurance. This will not work out well. Especially since health insurance companies are restricted by law from selling across state lines. This gives insurance companies a virtual oligopoly within their regions.

The federal law also sets a minimum fine for each uninsured employee. This is a gigantic price fixing scheme for insurance companies, is it not? If you know going in what fines an employer will have to pay if he does not buy your product, you have a serious advantage.

And if the employer is forced by law to provide specific things in their coverage, like birth control and whatever else the left will whine for now that it is mandatory coverage, this also gives the insurance companies lots of leverage.

No, this will drive up the costs of healthcare even more, I'm afraid.

So, let me get this straight...WITHOUT government intervention, and the free enterprise system working as smoothly as ever, you hypothesize that my employer's portion of my EPHI has doubled in the past 10 years? So, this is a good way fo doing things?

And you are stating that with the introduction of the ACA, NOW the employers will be over a barrell? What the hell were they over before?

 

[VaYank5150]

You actually have more negotiating power on your own. You get to decide the exact kind of policy you want. And if you are allowed to buy insurance from ANY company in the country, then they have to compete against each other for your business.

Just like they do for your auto, home, and life insurance.

You do not have that freedom with EPHI. And now your employer's negotiation position is greatly weakened, too. The Left will demand more and more things be included in the mandated coverage.

We're all screwed.

Prove it. Show me a website where I can go, as an individual and get an estimate for the exact levels of coverage and exact same deductibles that I have now, and pay a lesser price without sacrificing service. Show me and I will input the appropriate data for myself, and I would like to see your results as well.

 

[VaYank5150]

Here you go. Try this one on for size:

Health Insurance - Find Affordable Health Insurance Plans and Buy Medical Coverage Online

Then, try to find something even CLOSE to the fine print of the coverage you currently have, assuming you have EPHI. I couldn't do it...

 

[Vel]

I completely understand what the ACA does. Now, if your supposition that the unions FORCED employers to provide Health Insurance prior to the ACA, we wouldn't be having this discussion. So, for the record, the unions did not FORCE business to do anything that they felt wasn't a sound business decision, right?

The unions made EPHI a demand of labor negotiations. I would not say "FORCED". Over time, this new benefit became a corporate standard. Even many companies that do not have labor union employees now offer it to their employees.

This is not sound business practice, as some employers are beginning to realize. The cost of health insurance is rising faster than inflation, ironically in part due to the existence of EPHI, and so the rising cost of offering that benefit is hurting employers.

This in fact, IS a very sound business practice. At a time when many employers have chosen to freeze or even cut EPHI for it's employees, forward thinking companies realize just how important this benefit is to prospective employees, and it is a tool they use, above and beyond salary to attract the very best talent. Capitalism at it's finest, if you ask me...

It ceases to be "Capitalism at it's finest", when it is mandated. If as a business owner I choose to offer health benefits to attract a higher caliber employee, that it one thing. If I'm forced under threat of penalty to provide health benefits to others, that is another.

 

[Vel]

And what does the GOP do to counter? Scare the shit out of everyone with "death panels". REALLY??

The GOP actually had at least two alternative plans offered, but that did not fit the Left's narrative which said the GOP was the "party of no".

There was also a better alternative offered by the Democratic Senator from Oregon, Ron Wyden. The story of his getting shunted aside by his own party is one which should be explored by those who think the Democratic Party had the people's best interests at heart with ObamaCare.


As for "death panels" thing, I personally would like to pull the plug on Sarah Palin. She has done irreparable damage to the GOP.

But what alternatives would I like to see, you perhaps are wondering?

I am glad you asked.

First, raise the retirement age. When the retirement age of 65 was established under FDR by the creation of Social Security in 1935, the average life expectancy was 60, and only 6 percent of the US population was over 65.

When Medicare was established under LBJ in 1965, the average life expectancy was 70.

Today, nearly 8 decades after 65 was set as the retirement age, the average life expectancy is 78, and 12 percent of the US population is over 65. We have literally doubled our entitlement burden.

If you go to work at 18 and retire at 65, you are paying into the system for 47 years, and drawing from our treasury for 13 years.

By simply raising the retirement age to 70 (and not even going 5 years beyond life expectancy as FDR did), you pay into the system for 5 more years and draw out for 5 years less.

Huge savings for Medicare, which is the larger part of our nation’s medical expenses.



Second, eliminate employer-provided health insurance (EPHI). EPHI has been bending the health care cost curve upward ever since it was demanded as a job benefit by labor unions.
Rather than eliminate EPHI, ObamaCare entrenches it, making it a mandatory benefit by employers, or they must pay a fine. Unbelievable!

Not only that, Obama himself deliberately and dramatically raised the tax exemption ceiling for EPHI.

You see, the average family health insurance benefit is $12,000. This is a benefit you receive from your employer which is not taxed as income.

There are EPHI plans provided to some workers that are worth much more than that. These are known as “Cadillac plans” and labor unions are famous for them.

Congress had set the tax exemption ceiling for EPHI to $18,000. Any EPHI value above that would be taxed as income. But Obama personally pen and inked it to $27,000.

And this man has the balls to tell us tax cuts for the rich are costing the rest of us money!

Eliminate EPHI. You should buy health insurance the same way you buy your auto, home, and life insurance. And you should be able to buy it across state lines the same way you buy your auto, home, and life insurance.

If you don’t insure your car and you crash it, does the American taxpayer pay off your car loan?

No. That’s preposterous.

If you don’t insure your home and it burns down, does the American taxpayer pay off your mortgage?

No. That’s preposterous.

If you don’t insure your life and you die in a car crash, does the American taxpayer give your widow half a million bucks?

No. That’s preposterous.

If you don’t insure your health and you get sick, should the American taxpayer pay your hospital bill?

No. That’s preposterous.

These are just a couple of several ideas which are much better alternatives to the abortion called ObamaCare.

Are you suggesting that under law, our employers MUST provide Health Insurance? Surely, you jest?

Why do you think that it's right that an employer be required to provide you with health insurance?

 

[VaYank5150]

The unions made EPHI a demand of labor negotiations. I would not say "FORCED". Over time, this new benefit became a corporate standard. Even many companies that do not have labor union employees now offer it to their employees.

This is not sound business practice, as some employers are beginning to realize. The cost of health insurance is rising faster than inflation, ironically in part due to the existence of EPHI, and so the rising cost of offering that benefit is hurting employers.

This in fact, IS a very sound business practice. At a time when many employers have chosen to freeze or even cut EPHI for it's employees, forward thinking companies realize just how important this benefit is to prospective employees, and it is a tool they use, above and beyond salary to attract the very best talent. Capitalism at it's finest, if you ask me...

It ceases to be "Capitalism at it's finest", when it is mandated. If as a business owner I choose to offer health benefits to attract a higher caliber employee, that it one thing. If I'm forced under threat of penalty to provide health benefits to others, that is another.

This is the mandate:

Large employers that do not offer health insurance coverage will pay an annual penalty of $2,000 for every full-time employee beyond the first 30, as long as the employer has at least one employee who receives subsidized coverage in the local health insurance exchange. …

Employers with 50 or more FTEs will pay a penalty of $3,000 a year for each full-time worker who is offered employer coverage but instead receives a premium credit to buy coverage in the exchange. The total amount that an employer will have to pay with respect to such employees will be capped at an amount equal to $2,000 times the total number of full-time workers in excess of 30 that the firm employs. …

Employees offered coverage by their employer will generally be barred from purchasing coverage in the exchange — as long as the coverage meets a minimum standard (it must have at least a 60-percent actuarial value) and the worker does not have to pay more than 9.5 percent of income for the employee share of the premium. …

Employers must offer what the legislation refers to as “free-choice vouchers” to employees whose share of the premium for employer-sponsored coverage would be between 8 and 9.5 percent of their income. The amount of an employee’s voucher would equal the contribution the employer would make to its own health plan on behalf of the employee, and the employee could use the voucher to purchase insurance in the exchange. Employees receiving free-choice vouchers are not eligible for subsidies.

Now, does this sound like a "Premium" or "Cadillac" plan that you, as an employer, would use to attract the very best talent? Of course not. The mandate only requires that an employer offer a minimum package, and if they don't, they pay $2-$3K....which is typically less than what they probably would have paid had they offered such mimimal plans to it's employees.

 

[DiamondDave]

Here you go. Try this one on for size:

Health Insurance - Find Affordable Health Insurance Plans and Buy Medical Coverage Online

Then, try to find something even CLOSE to the fine print of the coverage you currently have, assuming you have EPHI. I couldn't do it...

Are you including the amount your employer kicks in as well??

You know.. I would rather have the extra pay and choose my plan and level of plan among many competitors.. like I can with say Auto Insurance... and if I change jobs, I don't have to change insurers because my new employer only negotiates with insurer X... and you don't have to worry about pre-existing condition because you never had to switch... and with more companies competing, and more coverage options, you will have better prices and choices.... and if you want group coverage, let whatever group you are in negotiate with or simply choose companies in the same way

But nah... too easy... and keeps the government's grubby hands out of it

 

[VaYank5150]

The GOP actually had at least two alternative plans offered, but that did not fit the Left's narrative which said the GOP was the "party of no".

There was also a better alternative offered by the Democratic Senator from Oregon, Ron Wyden. The story of his getting shunted aside by his own party is one which should be explored by those who think the Democratic Party had the people's best interests at heart with ObamaCare.


As for "death panels" thing, I personally would like to pull the plug on Sarah Palin. She has done irreparable damage to the GOP.

But what alternatives would I like to see, you perhaps are wondering?

I am glad you asked.

First, raise the retirement age. When the retirement age of 65 was established under FDR by the creation of Social Security in 1935, the average life expectancy was 60, and only 6 percent of the US population was over 65.

When Medicare was established under LBJ in 1965, the average life expectancy was 70.

Today, nearly 8 decades after 65 was set as the retirement age, the average life expectancy is 78, and 12 percent of the US population is over 65. We have literally doubled our entitlement burden.

If you go to work at 18 and retire at 65, you are paying into the system for 47 years, and drawing from our treasury for 13 years.

By simply raising the retirement age to 70 (and not even going 5 years beyond life expectancy as FDR did), you pay into the system for 5 more years and draw out for 5 years less.

Huge savings for Medicare, which is the larger part of our nation’s medical expenses.



Second, eliminate employer-provided health insurance (EPHI). EPHI has been bending the health care cost curve upward ever since it was demanded as a job benefit by labor unions.
Rather than eliminate EPHI, ObamaCare entrenches it, making it a mandatory benefit by employers, or they must pay a fine. Unbelievable!

Not only that, Obama himself deliberately and dramatically raised the tax exemption ceiling for EPHI.

You see, the average family health insurance benefit is $12,000. This is a benefit you receive from your employer which is not taxed as income.

There are EPHI plans provided to some workers that are worth much more than that. These are known as “Cadillac plans” and labor unions are famous for them.

Congress had set the tax exemption ceiling for EPHI to $18,000. Any EPHI value above that would be taxed as income. But Obama personally pen and inked it to $27,000.

And this man has the balls to tell us tax cuts for the rich are costing the rest of us money!

Eliminate EPHI. You should buy health insurance the same way you buy your auto, home, and life insurance. And you should be able to buy it across state lines the same way you buy your auto, home, and life insurance.

If you don’t insure your car and you crash it, does the American taxpayer pay off your car loan?

No. That’s preposterous.

If you don’t insure your home and it burns down, does the American taxpayer pay off your mortgage?

No. That’s preposterous.

If you don’t insure your life and you die in a car crash, does the American taxpayer give your widow half a million bucks?

No. That’s preposterous.

If you don’t insure your health and you get sick, should the American taxpayer pay your hospital bill?

No. That’s preposterous.

These are just a couple of several ideas which are much better alternatives to the abortion called ObamaCare.

Are you suggesting that under law, our employers MUST provide Health Insurance? Surely, you jest?

Why do you think that it's right that an employer be required to provide you with health insurance?

They don't have to provide health insurance. Even under the mandate. If they choose not to, they pay a penalty to allow our government to offer health insurance to all Americans.

 

[VaYank5150]

Here you go. Try this one on for size:

Health Insurance - Find Affordable Health Insurance Plans and Buy Medical Coverage Online

Then, try to find something even CLOSE to the fine print of the coverage you currently have, assuming you have EPHI. I couldn't do it...

Are you including the amount your employer kicks in as well??

You know.. I would rather have the extra pay and choose my plan and level of plan among many competitors.. like I can with say Auto Insurance... and if I change jobs, I don't have to change insurers because my new employer only negotiates with insurer X... and you don't have to worry about pre-existing condition because you never had to switch... and with more companies competing, and more coverage options, you will have better prices and choices.... and if you want group coverage, let whatever group you are in negotiate with or simply choose companies in the same way

But nah... too easy... and keeps the government's grubby hands out of it

I will ask you the same thing. Please, PROVE your assertion about better coverage, cheaper prices and more options. It should be VERY simple, right?

 

[DiamondDave]

Here you go. Try this one on for size:

Health Insurance - Find Affordable Health Insurance Plans and Buy Medical Coverage Online

Then, try to find something even CLOSE to the fine print of the coverage you currently have, assuming you have EPHI. I couldn't do it...

Are you including the amount your employer kicks in as well??

You know.. I would rather have the extra pay and choose my plan and level of plan among many competitors.. like I can with say Auto Insurance... and if I change jobs, I don't have to change insurers because my new employer only negotiates with insurer X... and you don't have to worry about pre-existing condition because you never had to switch... and with more companies competing, and more coverage options, you will have better prices and choices.... and if you want group coverage, let whatever group you are in negotiate with or simply choose companies in the same way

But nah... too easy... and keeps the government's grubby hands out of it

I will ask you the same thing. Please, PROVE your assertion about better coverage, cheaper prices and more options. It should be VERY simple, right?

Simple laws of commerce... more competition, more availability, more product, and more supply does not lead to higher prices, it leads to lower....

And notice I said choice of level of coverage.... you choose whether the coverage you want is better or the same or less or whatever.. currently I have 3 choices or product for insurance at my employer.... in the open marketplace, I have or would have many more

 

[VaYank5150]

Are you including the amount your employer kicks in as well??

You know.. I would rather have the extra pay and choose my plan and level of plan among many competitors.. like I can with say Auto Insurance... and if I change jobs, I don't have to change insurers because my new employer only negotiates with insurer X... and you don't have to worry about pre-existing condition because you never had to switch... and with more companies competing, and more coverage options, you will have better prices and choices.... and if you want group coverage, let whatever group you are in negotiate with or simply choose companies in the same way

But nah... too easy... and keeps the government's grubby hands out of it

I will ask you the same thing. Please, PROVE your assertion about better coverage, cheaper prices and more options. It should be VERY simple, right?

Simple laws of commerce... more competition, more availability, more product, and more supply does not lead to higher prices, it leads to lower....

And notice I said choice of level of coverage.... you choose whether the coverage you want is better or the same or less or whatever.. currently I have 3 choices or product for insurance at my employer.... in the open marketplace, I have or would have many more

In other words, you can't prove it.

 

[Vel]

Are you suggesting that under law, our employers MUST provide Health Insurance? Surely, you jest?

Why do you think that it's right that an employer be required to provide you with health insurance?

They don't have to provide health insurance. Even under the mandate. If they choose not to, they pay a penalty to allow our government to offer health insurance to all Americans.

Why should an employer be required to pay a penalty to provide health insurance benefits for others? Why?

 

[DiamondDave]

I will ask you the same thing. Please, PROVE your assertion about better coverage, cheaper prices and more options. It should be VERY simple, right?

Simple laws of commerce... more competition, more availability, more product, and more supply does not lead to higher prices, it leads to lower....

And notice I said choice of level of coverage.... you choose whether the coverage you want is better or the same or less or whatever.. currently I have 3 choices or product for insurance at my employer.... in the open marketplace, I have or would have many more

In other words, you can't prove it.

Something that is not allowed to happen cannot be proven... we don't have that market allowed now...

But simple laws of commerce are mostly accepted.. except by the likes of you in this case...


If you indeed believe more choices, more supply, more availability and more marketplace competition leads to higher prices, I certainly would not want you as an economic or financial advisor

 

[Mr. Peepers]

If you're so for "choice", why not let the American people do what they REALLY want to do and set up an independent not-for-profit health insurance co-op that all Americans can join? Oh I know, gotta protect the evil insurance industry...

And this is exactly what the insurance lobbyists and their ass-kissers in the GOP (and I'm sure some Dems) did by taking the public option off the table. This would be real choice.

 

[Vel]

If you're so for "choice", why not let the American people do what they REALLY want to do and set up an independent not-for-profit health insurance co-op that all Americans can join? Oh I know, gotta protect the evil insurance industry...

And this is exactly what the insurance lobbyists and their ass-kissers in the GOP (and I'm sure some Dems) did by taking the public option off the table. This would be real choice.

If you really want a non profit health insurance co-op, then what is stopping you? There is nothing that says that like minded individuals can't get together and form one. If it's a really good deal then I'm sure you'll find that people are beating a path to your door.

 

[g5000]

So, let me get this straight...WITHOUT government intervention, and the free enterprise system working as smoothly as ever, you hypothesize that my employer's portion of my EPHI has doubled in the past 10 years? So, this is a good way fo doing things?

Free enterprise has not been working at all. You cannot buy insurance across state lines unless your state has a reciprocal agreement with other states. Even then, you cannot buy from any insurance company in any state you wish.

And the reason the cost of EPHI has been going up is precisely because EPHI exists. EPHI drives up the cost of healthcare, which causes your premiums to go up. It is a snake swallowing its own tail.

And you are stating that with the introduction of the ACA, NOW the employers will be over a barrell? What the hell were they over before?

I am saying it will drive up the cost even more rapidly. They are entrenching the problem that needs to be eliminated!

 

[g5000]

They don't have to provide health insurance. Even under the mandate. If they choose not to, they pay a penalty to allow our government to offer health insurance to all Americans.

Semantics.

The same is true for the individual mandate. You don't "have to" buy health insurance, but you pay a fine if you don't.

 

[g5000]

If you're so for "choice", why not let the American people do what they REALLY want to do and set up an independent not-for-profit health insurance co-op that all Americans can join? Oh I know, gotta protect the evil insurance industry...

And this is exactly what the insurance lobbyists and their ass-kissers in the GOP (and I'm sure some Dems) did by taking the public option off the table. This would be real choice.

Um..."public option" =/= "non-profit co-op".

The public option was actually a government run health insurance agency.

 

[g5000]

The price of health insurance provided by employers for families jumped 9% this year over 2010 as rising healthcare expenses contributed to the largest premium increases in six years, a national survey shows.

Annual insurance premiums for families rose to $15,073 on average in 2011, up from an average of $13,770 last year and more than twice the cost of a decade ago, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Health Research & Educational Trust.

Cost of employer-provided health insurance up 9% in 2011 - Los Angeles Times