The hypocrisy and arrogance of atheism

[Abishai100]

The Preachy Brainiac

Here's a problem I have with atheists: they seem very offended by religion.

It's true, advocates of religion can be very self-righteous. However, many atheists come off as deeply disturbed, and hence perhaps ironically over-sentimental about their criticism of formal religion. But hey, atheists have a right to be sensitive too.

I guess as long as you don't sound like you're saying things like, "You're using the wrong brand of toothpaste," then you have a 'private' right to sound preachy.

 

[PostmodernProph]

So how did Noah get kangaroos from Australia to his boat and back again?

Proverbs 29:9
If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet.

Proverbs 29:9[a]
Thou shallest not thinketh the earth is only 6,000 years oldeth.

Get a grip'eth - We were joking'eth.

???.....that doesn't mean you aren't a fool.....

 

[Hollie]

So how did Noah get kangaroos from Australia to his boat and back again?

Proverbs 29:9
If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet.

Proverbs 29:9[a]
Thou shallest not thinketh the earth is only 6,000 years oldeth.

Get a grip'eth - We were joking'eth.

???.....that doesn't mean you aren't a fool.....

???,,,,. It does mean..... You're pointless.......

 

[Taz]

So how did Noah get kangaroos from Australia to his boat and back again?

Proverbs 29:9
If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet.

In other words, you don't know. But we knew that already, didn't we?

 

[PostmodernProph]

So how did Noah get kangaroos from Australia to his boat and back again?

Proverbs 29:9
If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet.

In other words, you don't know. But we knew that already, didn't we?

are you raging or laughing?......

 

[Taz]

Atheists aren't right either, but they are for sure less deluded than theists.

 

[Steven_R]

Atheists aren't right either, but they are for sure less deluded than theists.

I think part of the problem is that atheist and agnostic are somewhat interchangeable. I don't believe the whole Bible/Jehovah/Satan story any more than I believe the whole Odin/Thor/Friga or Ra/Isis/Osiris stories. Does that make me an atheist? In some eyes, yes; in others, no. I'm an agnostic in that I have no data concerning the supernatural or life after death or what constitutes a soul, but tend to think none-of-the-above are right. I just don't know and really don't worry about it.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Here's a problem I have with atheists: they seem very offended by religion.

As an atheist I don't have any problems with religions. Fiction is fiction and there is nothing wrong with fiction.

As an atheist I don't have any problem with the vast majority of theists who believe in religions either. They are nice people who actually try and be good.

As an atheist I am entitled to a secular government. It is just that small minority of theists who want to impose their own personal religious beliefs on the secular government of We the People that cause all of the problems. Apparently they don't understand that their freedom of religions depends on my freedom from their religion.

 

[Newby]

Here's a problem I have with atheists: they seem very offended by religion.

As an atheist I don't have any problems with religions. Fiction is fiction and there is nothing wrong with fiction.

As an atheist I don't have any problem with the vast majority of theists who believe in religions either. They are nice people who actually try and be good.

As an atheist I am entitled to a secular government. It is just that small minority of theists who want to impose their own personal religious beliefs on the secular government of We the People that cause all of the problems. Apparently they don't understand that their freedom of religions depends on my freedom from their religion.

"All of the problems.." What problems?

 

[Steven_R]

Here's a problem I have with atheists: they seem very offended by religion.

As an atheist I don't have any problems with religions. Fiction is fiction and there is nothing wrong with fiction.

As an atheist I don't have any problem with the vast majority of theists who believe in religions either. They are nice people who actually try and be good.

As an atheist I am entitled to a secular government. It is just that small minority of theists who want to impose their own personal religious beliefs on the secular government of We the People that cause all of the problems. Apparently they don't understand that their freedom of religions depends on my freedom from their religion.

"All of the problems.." What problems?

I can't presume to speak for anyone else, but right off the top of my head we have believers fighting tooth and nail to put God in science classrooms, fights over abortion laws and gay marriage, blue laws, religious enclaves like Kiryas Joel where religious police do their thing, ultraorthodox Jews who refuse to work so they can spend all day studying the Torah and making babies and then using every form of welfare available, churches sponsoring refugees who bring all the problems with them (e.g. crime, language difficulties, lack of skills).

It's not even a Republican versus Democrat issue, although the Rs are deeply in bed with the Religious Right. Ds pander to religious groups. Orthodox Jews in NYC tend to get a pass on criminal matters because of the power of Jewish voters. The swing a big political stick.

 

[Newby]

Here's a problem I have with atheists: they seem very offended by religion.

As an atheist I don't have any problems with religions. Fiction is fiction and there is nothing wrong with fiction.

As an atheist I don't have any problem with the vast majority of theists who believe in religions either. They are nice people who actually try and be good.

As an atheist I am entitled to a secular government. It is just that small minority of theists who want to impose their own personal religious beliefs on the secular government of We the People that cause all of the problems. Apparently they don't understand that their freedom of religions depends on my freedom from their religion.

"All of the problems.." What problems?

I can't presume to speak for anyone else, but right off the top of my head we have believers fighting tooth and nail to put God in science classrooms, fights over abortion laws and gay marriage, blue laws, religious enclaves like Kiryas Joel where religious police do their thing, ultraorthodox Jews who refuse to work so they can spend all day studying the Torah and making babies and then using every form of welfare available, churches sponsoring refugees who bring all the problems with them (e.g. crime, language difficulties, lack of skills).

It's not even a Republican versus Democrat issue, although the Rs are deeply in bed with the Religious Right. Ds pander to religious groups. Orthodox Jews in NYC tend to get a pass on criminal matters because of the power of Jewish voters. The swing a big political stick.

Do you have any cases to cite where people are trying to put 'God' back into science class?

Abortion is a moral issue, not a religious issue. You don't have to be religious to find abortion immoral. I'm guessing you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that will say it's a moral act. And abortion is legal, and has been for 40 years.

Gay marriage most people just find repugnant, if it was kept from being legal simply because of religious people, it would have been law a long time ago, just like abortion.

So you have 'God in science class', which you really haven't proven, abortion (which is legal), and gay marriage? So that's it? That's 'all of the problems'? Seriously?

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

So how did Noah get kangaroos from Australia to his boat and back again?

Proverbs 29:9
If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet.

Precisely. But of course I'm just laying down the facts and letting the fools rage and laugh.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Here's a problem I have with atheists: they seem very offended by religion.

As an atheist I don't have any problems with religions. Fiction is fiction and there is nothing wrong with fiction.

As an atheist I don't have any problem with the vast majority of theists who believe in religions either. They are nice people who actually try and be good.

As an atheist I am entitled to a secular government. It is just that small minority of theists who want to impose their own personal religious beliefs on the secular government of We the People that cause all of the problems. Apparently they don't understand that their freedom of religions depends on my freedom from their religion.

"All of the problems.." What problems?

I can't presume to speak for anyone else, but right off the top of my head we have believers fighting tooth and nail to put God in science classrooms, fights over abortion laws and gay marriage, blue laws, religious enclaves like Kiryas Joel where religious police do their thing, ultraorthodox Jews who refuse to work so they can spend all day studying the Torah and making babies and then using every form of welfare available, churches sponsoring refugees who bring all the problems with them (e.g. crime, language difficulties, lack of skills).

It's not even a Republican versus Democrat issue, although the Rs are deeply in bed with the Religious Right. Ds pander to religious groups. Orthodox Jews in NYC tend to get a pass on criminal matters because of the power of Jewish voters. The swing a big political stick.

Incredible. The atheist thinks he owns the public schools. He thinks the Constitution means he has the right to shove his religious abominations down our throats and complains when we push back. Here's an idea for you statist atheists: universal school choice! But no. You oppose that. So shut up when we push back.

Your materialistic metaphysics of ontological naturalism is not science anyway. It's your religion. Keep it to yourself. Get out of the schools. Leave. GET OUT AND LEAVE YOUR TAX DOLLARS WITH US! OR YOU CAN LEAVE YOUR CHILDREN IN THE SCHOOLS AND WE'LL IMPOSE OUR RELIGION ON THEM.

You people are insane, stupid, obtuse. This is what you're saying to us.

What really needs to happen in this country is that religious parents need to simply go into the schools and take them back from these thugs. Tell the statist teacher unions, the politicians and judges to shove it.

In the meantime, of course, none of you relativists/atheists have been able to refute a single argument of mine . . . because the laws of thought refute you every time.

 

[Taz]

So how did Noah get kangaroos from Australia to his boat and back again?

Proverbs 29:9
If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet.

Precisely. But of course I'm just laying down the facts and letting the fools rage and laugh.

So what are the facts about Noah getting roos to and from Oz?

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

So what are the facts about Noah getting roos to and from Oz?

You guys simply cannot deal with the objective facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin. . . . You don't understand the biblical Noah. Telling me you don't believe in the biblical Noah is redundantly atheistic.

Back to first principles. . . .


The Seven Things™
1. We exist!

2. The cosmological order exists!

3. The idea that God exists in our minds as the Creator of everything else that exists; hence, the possibility of God's existence cannot be logically ruled out!

4. If God does exist, He would necessarily be a Being of unparalleled greatness, for no creature could be greater than the Creator!

5. Currently, science cannot verify or falsify God's existence!

6. On the very fact of it, it is not logically possible for a finite being to say or think that God the Creator doesn't exist, whether He actually exists outside the logic of our minds or not!

See Posts:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10236118/


http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10236219/


http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10150814/


http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10123006/​

7. All six of the above things are objectively and universally true for human knowers/thinkers due to the absolute, incontrovertible laws of thought: the law of identity, the law of contradiction and the law of the excluded middle!


I previously established that epistemological irrationalism, skepticism, antirealism or solipsism are arguably possible, but not pragmatic. Hence, for all those who accept that we exist (#1) and that the universe exists (#2), #3, #4, #5, #6 and #7 necessarily follow.

These are the facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin. The objective facts of human cognition report, you decide. God just might be waiting for you on the other side of that leap of faith. There's plenty of rational and empirical evidence for God's existence.

All the rest of the things I've talked about go to the apprehensible details of #4. Not everybody can follow or will even try.

But what we all can and should logically understand, that which is self-evident, regarding #4: to assume that the actuality behind the construct of God of human cognition would be anything less than the very highest conceivable standard of divine attribution unjustifiably begs the question. From an objective standpoint, finite beings are in no position to presuppose anything less, as such a thing would necessarily be a presumptuously subjective standard of belief. An objective standard presupposes nothing less than infinitely unparalleled greatness.

It doesn’t matter that we can't comprehend the totality of that. We can and do comprehend the prospect of the highest conceivable standard of perfection for divine attribution whatever that may entail. In other words, logically, nothing created could be greater than the Creator of all other things, and what is the highest conceivable standard of being in this regard: an eternally and transcendentally self-subsistent consciousness of self-aware personhood, a Being of absolute perfection and infinitely unparalleled greatness.

No one escapes The Seven Things ™

 

[Hollie]

So what are the facts about Noah getting roos to and from Oz?

You guys simply cannot deal with the objective facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin. . . . You don't understand the biblical Noah. Telling me you don't believe in the biblical Noah is redundantly atheistic.

Back to first principles. . . .


The Seven Things™
1. We exist!

2. The cosmological order exists!

3. The idea that God exists in our minds as the Creator of everything else that exists; hence, the possibility of God's existence cannot be logically ruled out!

4. If God does exist, He would necessarily be a Being of unparalleled greatness, for no creature could be greater than the Creator!

5. Currently, science cannot verify or falsify God's existence!

6. On the very fact of it, it is not logically possible for a finite being to say or think that God the Creator doesn't exist, whether He actually exists outside the logic of our minds or not!

See Posts:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10236118/


http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10236219/


http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10150814/


http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10123006/​

7. All six of the above things are objectively and universally true for human knowers/thinkers due to the absolute, incontrovertible laws of thought: the law of identity, the law of contradiction and the law of the excluded middle!


I previously established that epistemological irrationalism, skepticism, antirealism or solipsism are arguably possible, but not pragmatic. Hence, for all those who accept that we exist (#1) and that the universe exists (#2), #3, #4, #5, #6 and #7 necessarily follow.

These are the facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin. The objective facts of human cognition report, you decide. God just might be waiting for you on the other side of that leap of faith. There's plenty of rational and empirical evidence for God's existence.

All the rest of the things I've talked about go to the apprehensible details of #4. Not everybody can follow or will even try.

But what we all can and should logically understand, that which is self-evident, regarding #4: to assume that the actuality behind the construct of God of human cognition would be anything less than the very highest conceivable standard of divine attribution unjustifiably begs the question. From an objective standpoint, finite beings are in no position to presuppose anything less, as such a thing would necessarily be a presumptuously subjective standard of belief. An objective standard presupposes nothing less than infinitely unparalleled greatness.

It doesn’t matter that we can't comprehend the totality of that. We can and do comprehend the prospect of the highest conceivable standard of perfection for divine attribution whatever that may entail. In other words, logically, nothing created could be greater than the Creator of all other things, and what is the highest conceivable standard of being in this regard: an eternally and transcendentally self-subsistent consciousness of self-aware personhood, a Being of absolute perfection and infinitely unparalleled greatness.

No one escapes The Seven Things ™

Fraud Alert!


Everyone escapes the Seven Fraudulent Things

The five, no wait, it's now Seven Fraudulent Things™

1. We exist!

Stating the obvious. Perhaps that would be a useful observation if we had some sort of general agreement on how this proves your various gawds. But since we don't, it's not. Therefore, we agree that you concede point 1 in your Seven Phony Things™ is useless as a means to prove your gawds.

2. The cosmological order exists!
Cosmology
1 a : a branch of metaphysics that deals with the nature of the universe
b : a theory or doctrine describing the natural order of the universe
2: a branch of astronomy that deals with the origin, structure, and space-time relationships of the universe; also : a theory dealing with these matters.

It is science that has given us a first, but incomplete understanding of the cosmos. As with so much of your ignorant and religiously based worldview that is corrupted by fear and superstition, you cant even define what you mean with slogans such as "cosmological order". You really need to look past harun Yahya for your science data. The cosmos contains many pockets and eddies of order in the midst of its more general violence and chaos. Most of human misperception on that issues is entirely one of scale. We happen to exist in one of those eddies... the localized order we experience is a precondition for our very existence. But it is not characteristic of the universe.

Lest you see a sign of "design" in our great good fortune, you have that exactly backwards. It is again the law of incredibly large numbers that requires that there must be such oases of order, and that some subset of them contain life, and some smaller subset of them contain intelligence. The universe is a very large place. Somebody, somewhere always wins the lottery eventually.


3. The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds! So the possibility that God exists cannot be logically ruled out!

Your ideas of partisan gawds is entirely a function of happenstance. If you raise a baby in a Hindu culture, it will almost certainly embrace Hinduism; if in a Christian home, Christianity. All theistic beliefs are brought externally to human beings, none of them display inherent hardwiring as you falsely claimed in your earlier disaster of The Five Fraudulent Things™. If you raise a child devoid of god concepts in the middle of a remote jungle, the child will not arbitrarily and spontaneously generate theism.


4. If God does exist, He would necessarily be, logically, a Being of unparalleled greatness!

And if he does not exist, he wouldn't. If today was Friday, it wouldn't be Thursday. See how that works? The ultimate failure of your fraudulent Seven Phony Things™ is your precommittment to the polytheistic christian gawds. Your gawds are relative newcomers as human inventions of gawds go, so, to the back of the line you go with your hand-me-down gawds.

Secondly, I have to point out how spectacularly incompetent your gawds are relative to your claim of "unparalleled greatness". A tour de force of pointless. There is nothing in that paragraph worthy of intellectual allegiance. Especially as it contains such furious backpedaling from your earlier certainty regarding The Five Phony Things™

Did you just make up The Seven Phony Things™ off the cuff? Certainly you are not pretending that it is the result of any deep thinking.

You're not bright enough to ask why your gods would choose to deliver their message through the corruptible hand of man. What is more important: gods who clearly deliver their message upon which one's eternal salvation rests, or do they speak in riddles and poems, leaving open to interpretation what their intent is? What a risk they put their children at.


5. Currently, science cannot verify whether or not God exists!

Currently, science cannot verify whether or not the Easter Bunny exists!
You are now free to actually accept or reject it based on your own assessement. Now... that very well might be difficult for you, given your affection for "absolutes." You might possibly feel more comfortable being told exactly what to accept and what to reject via a long line of "absolute claims." There is certainly a personailty type that is most comfortable embedded in revealed dogma requiring no actual decision making or judgment on their part.

One of the profound difficulties religious zealots have with reality in general and science in particular is that they are more complex than “the gawds did it.” The universe does not consist of ideals and opposites, but instead of continua along dimensions with multiple (often infinite) possible options. Yes… it is one of the rude awakenings to the religious that we live in a Darwinian world, not a Platonic one.


6. It is not logically possible to say or think that God (the Creator) doesn't exist, whether He actually exists outside the logic of our minds or not (See Posts 2599 and 2600)!

It is not logically possible to say or think that your polytheistic gawds are the only gawds that don't exist.

Your polytheistic gawds are merely one conception of gawds. We are privileged to consider reality, but only the universe that actually exists can be fruitfully considered. How do we assign confidence to what is real and what is simply imaginary?

Evidence and reason. These are our only tools for that task. Thankfully, they appear to work pretty well, at least for those of us not bound to a precommittment to your dogma.


7. All six of the above things are objectively, universally and logically true for human knowers/thinkers!

No, they're not. Millennia of “philosophers and theologians” have constructed elaborate and ultimately futile models of reality and truth, with next to no positive impact on the human condition. Science in dramatic contrast is among the youngest of human of human endeavors, and yet has achieved things no previous discipline has approached. It has fed the hungry, cured disease, created technology that four generations ago would have been unimaginable. It has literally changed our world, while religions like Christianity and Islam have done little more than churn human misfortune in a static embrace of past error. Unlike all the philosophies and religions that came before it, science actually works.

This is why “scientific facts” deserve so much deference in comparison to the imaginary “absolute facts” delivered by philosophy and faith. They have evidence that affords them some qualification for our rational allegiance.

There is a reason why science has proven to be the single most influential and impactful human endeavor in history; that is because it formally recognizes the tentative nature of all human knowledge, and provides a method for incrementally approaching “absolute” truth without the arrogance of assuming it is ever actually achieved. It bears a humility regarding its own achievement that constantly inspires revision and review. It inspires thinking and iconoclasm rather than the intellectual rigor mortis of received dogma.

And in this way it accomplishes what most religious beliefs do not; progress.


Everyone Escapes the five, no wait, it's now, Seven Fraudulent Things™

 

[Hollie]

Here's a problem I have with atheists: they seem very offended by religion.

As an atheist I don't have any problems with religions. Fiction is fiction and there is nothing wrong with fiction.

As an atheist I don't have any problem with the vast majority of theists who believe in religions either. They are nice people who actually try and be good.

As an atheist I am entitled to a secular government. It is just that small minority of theists who want to impose their own personal religious beliefs on the secular government of We the People that cause all of the problems. Apparently they don't understand that their freedom of religions depends on my freedom from their religion.

"All of the problems.." What problems?

I can't presume to speak for anyone else, but right off the top of my head we have believers fighting tooth and nail to put God in science classrooms, fights over abortion laws and gay marriage, blue laws, religious enclaves like Kiryas Joel where religious police do their thing, ultraorthodox Jews who refuse to work so they can spend all day studying the Torah and making babies and then using every form of welfare available, churches sponsoring refugees who bring all the problems with them (e.g. crime, language difficulties, lack of skills).

It's not even a Republican versus Democrat issue, although the Rs are deeply in bed with the Religious Right. Ds pander to religious groups. Orthodox Jews in NYC tend to get a pass on criminal matters because of the power of Jewish voters. The swing a big political stick.

Incredible. The atheist thinks he owns the public schools. He thinks the Constitution means he has the right to shove his religious abominations down our throats and complains when we push back. Here's an idea for you statist atheists: universal school choice! But no. You oppose that. So shut up when we push back.

Your materialistic metaphysics of ontological naturalism is not science anyway. It's your religion. Keep it to yourself. Get out of the schools. Leave. GET OUT AND LEAVE YOUR TAX DOLLARS WITH US! OR YOU CAN LEAVE YOUR CHILDREN IN THE SCHOOLS AND WE'LL IMPOSE OUR RELIGION ON THEM.

You people are insane, stupid, obtuse. This is what you're saying to us.

What really needs to happen in this country is that religious parents need to simply go into the schools and take them back from these thugs. Tell the statist teacher unions, the politicians and judges to shove it.

In the meantime, of course, none of you relativists/atheists have been able to refute a single argument of mine . . . because the laws of thought refute you every time.

That was quite the rant. It was also typically uninformed and pointless. It did, however, meet your usual standards of The Stupid.

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, it is appropriate to point and laugh at the Harun Yahya groupie.

 

[BreezeWood]

GET OUT AND LEAVE YOUR TAX DOLLARS WITH US!

.
speaking of tax dollars rawly, how about contributing to education and paying your share for a change - that way, even your input might have at least some semblance of meaning to it ...

.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Atheists aren't right either, but they are for sure less deluded than theists.

and the fact they feel that way is precisely why atheists are irrational......

 

[PostmodernProph]

Here's a problem I have with atheists: they seem very offended by religion.

As an atheist I don't have any problems with religions. Fiction is fiction and there is nothing wrong with fiction.

As an atheist I don't have any problem with the vast majority of theists who believe in religions either. They are nice people who actually try and be good.

As an atheist I am entitled to a secular government. It is just that small minority of theists who want to impose their own personal religious beliefs on the secular government of We the People that cause all of the problems. Apparently they don't understand that their freedom of religions depends on my freedom from their religion.

can you give me an example of a theist who wants to impose their religious beliefs on you?.....